I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
$200. <kof>

Pastorio

<<<<<<<<<<<< begin forward >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~<|>~

Dr. Doran, "TABLE TRAITS, WITH SOMETHING ON THEM"

New York; W.J. Widdleton, Publisher: 1865.

An interesting early study of food, drink and table habits. The author
lets little escape his notice, and covers various types of food,
meals, wine, special occasions, and all sorts of other material from
the pantry, including- The French Cafes; The Ancient Cook and His Art;
The Making and Marring of Wine; Imperial Drinkers and Incidents in
Germany; The Tables of the Ancient and Modern Egyptians; The Caesars
at the Table; Strange Banquets; Authors and their Dietetics, and a
whole lot more.

The text is all the more interesting because Doran will repeat just
about anything he has heard, as for example- "I have spoken of
gigantic asparagus; the Jews had radishes that could vie with them, if
it be true that a fox and cubs could burrow in the hollow of one, and
that it was not uncommon to grow them of a hundred pounds in weight.
It must have been such radishes as these that were employed by
seditious mobs of old, as weapons, in insurrections. In such case, a
rebellious people were always well victualled, and had peculiar
facilities, not only to beat their adversaries, but to eat their own
arms".

Hardcover. 5.5"x8.25", 489 pages; publisher's brown ribbed cloth;
covers with some soil and rubbing, tips bumped; endpapers creased;
some internal soil; 1" stain on rear endpapers extending slightly into
the last few pages of text. [04922] $200.00

In article >,
Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
>of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
>$200. <kof>
>Dr. Doran, "TABLE TRAITS, WITH SOMETHING ON THEM"
>New York; W.J. Widdleton, Publisher: 1865.
>Hardcover. 5.5"x8.25", 489 pages; publisher's brown ribbed cloth;
>covers with some soil and rubbing, tips bumped; endpapers creased;
>some internal soil; 1" stain on rear endpapers extending slightly into
>the last few pages of text. [04922] $200.00

In other words, a fairly ratty copy.

I have a fairly long experience with the used book trade. This is
just the sort of dishonest pricing that one finds more and more,
especially among American dealers. The fair value of the edition you
list, which is neither the first English nor the first American
imprint, probably is about twenty dollars, perhaps as much as forty
dollars in a very competitive market.

If you are interested in the text for its own sake, for the purpose
of research or scholarship, the easiest method of acquisition is to
order it through interlibrary loan at your local public, college,
or university library. You can then photocopy the entire work, if you
like, since copyright considerations no longer apply. At least thirteen
publicly-accessible collections in the United States have this particular
imprint:


Table traits with something on them.
Doran, Dr.
1865 English Book 489 p. New York, Widdleton,

Title: Table traits with something on them.
Author(s): Doran, Dr. 1807-1878. (John),
Publication: New York, Widdleton,
Year: 1865
Description: 489 p.
Class Descriptors: Dewey: 641.01
Accession No: OCLC: 3522131


The entire work, from title page to back board, should amount to
about five hundred pages. At seven cents per photocopy, and two
book pages on each photocopy, your cost will be about $17.50.

Of all nineteenth-century imprints of this book, there are about
seventy copies available through interlibrary loan in the United
States and Canada> Among them are the more valuable first English
edition:

**
Table traits, with something on them.
Doran, Dr.
1854 English Book 2 p. 1., [iii]-iv, 547 p. 19 cm. London, R. Bentley

Title: Table traits, with something on them.
Author(s): Doran, Dr. 1807-1878. (John),
Publication: London, R. Bentley.
Year: 1854
Description: 2 p. 1., [iii]-iv, 547 p. 19 cm.
Standard No: LCCN: 12-31907
Class Descriptors: LC: TX631
Accession No: OCLC: 5257762
**

The first American edition:

Table traits. In two volumes.
Doran, Dr.
1854 English Book 2 v. plates. 23 cm. Boston, Francis A. Niccolls &
company

Title: Table traits. In two volumes.
Author(s): Doran, Dr. 1807-1878. (John),
Publication: Boston, Francis A. Niccolls & company
Year: 1854
Description: 2 v. plates. 23 cm.
Note(s): Half-title: Table traits, with something on them./ "Edition
de luxe, limited to one thousand copies."/ Title page printed in brown
and gold.
Class Descriptors: LC: TX631
Accession No: OCLC: 16864761

and several others.
**

If you wish to purchase a copy for your own collection, ABEBOOKS,
one of several online booksearch services. lists eighteen available
copies, with some, indeed, at inflated prices. Among those at
reasonable cost may be mentioned:

Doran, Dr.
Table Traits with Something on Them
New York: Redfield, 1855. hardbound. Very Good cond (light stain to
top of first 5 or 6 pages) size: demy octavo (hinges cracked;
extremities & joints rubbed or shelf wear or fraying).
Price: US$ 20.00

Doran, Dr.
Table Traits With Something On Them.
NY Redfield 1859. Spine torn, front hinge broken, 489p.
Price: US$ 25.00

Doran, Dr.
Table Traits with Something on Them.
Redfield [New York]:: , 1855. Fair. First American Edition,
Ex-Library. Octavo. 489 pp., 6 pp. adverts. Brown cloth, spine
missing, boards detached. Library markings on title page, inside front
& rear boards. Not pretty to look at, but perfectly useable. This is
the American Edition of a 1854 London publication.
Price: US$ 25.00

and

Doran, Dr.
Table Traits with Something on Them
New York: Redfield, 1855. Cloth. No Jacket. First Edition. 12mo -
over 6 3/4" - 7 3/4" tall. This is a good reading copy of this vintage
classic. There are some marks and stamps from previous owner on front
endpapers, some light staining and darkening at extremities, and a
weakened front hinge; otherwise a solid copy with pages free of
foxing, binding still intact.
Price: US$ 25.00


Collecting cookery books is quite fashionable just now, and
unscrupulous dealers abound. Anyone thinking of an acquisition should,
at a minimum, do the following:

Check online union catalogues to determine the work's availability
in libraries. OCLC's FirstSearch can be searched in almost every
library, RLIN's EUREKA service also is readily available in many places.
If fifty, sixty, or more copies of an imprint are in known holdings,
you may conclude that the item is not particularly scarce or rare.

Check ABEBOOKS, BIBLIOFIND, and several other online booksearch
services. You may well find the work for which you are searching
at a quite reasonable price. In any case, you probably can get a
good idea of the fair market value of all but the rarest titles.


--
Regards, Frank Young
703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"

(The Bibliographer) wrote:

>In article >,
>Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>>I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
>>of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
>>$200. <kof>
>>Dr. Doran, "TABLE TRAITS, WITH SOMETHING ON THEM"
>>New York; W.J. Widdleton, Publisher: 1865.
>>Hardcover. 5.5"x8.25", 489 pages; publisher's brown ribbed cloth;
>>covers with some soil and rubbing, tips bumped; endpapers creased;
>>some internal soil; 1" stain on rear endpapers extending slightly into
>>the last few pages of text. [04922] $200.00
>
>In other words, a fairly ratty copy.

The importance of condition varies with the purpose for which you buy
the book. Books bought for collecting (read $$ value) should of be
near pristine. Books bought for reference need not be pristine, but
should be in the best condition possible.

Given that Joslin Hall subscribes to the "make it sound worse than it
is" description philosophy, like most good dealers... And anyone with
a knowledge of how to read book descriptions would not desrcibe the
above as 'ratty'.

>I have a fairly long experience with the used book trade.

This is not apperant from the content of your rant.

>This is just the sort of dishonest pricing that one finds more and more,
>especially among American dealers.

Hmmm.... Looking at Forrest's collection of qualifications, then
comparing them to yours tells me who is more likely to be trustworthy.

>The fair value of the edition you
>list, which is neither the first English nor the first American
>imprint, probably is about twenty dollars, perhaps as much as forty
>dollars in a very competitive market.

And your experience in pricing books is what? Your professional
qualifications are what?

>If you are interested in the text for its own sake, for the purpose
>of research or scholarship, the easiest method of acquisition is to
>order it through interlibrary loan at your local public, college,
>or university library. You can then photocopy the entire work, if you
>like, since copyright considerations no longer apply. At least thirteen
>publicly-accessible collections in the United States have this particular
>imprint:

A damm good way to destroy the book by damaging the spine.

>If you wish to purchase a copy for your own collection, ABEBOOKS,
>one of several online booksearch services. lists eighteen available
>copies, with some, indeed, at inflated prices. Among those at
>reasonable cost may be mentioned:

Of course many of those at your 'fair price' are in far worse shape
than Forrest's copy. (And virtually none of the copies on ABEBooks
are from known reliable dealers, which means you may not get what you
are paying for, even at reduced prices.)

>Check ABEBOOKS, BIBLIOFIND, and several other online booksearch
>services. You may well find the work for which you are searching
>at a quite reasonable price. In any case, you probably can get a
>good idea of the fair market value of all but the rarest titles.

Book search services are utterly unreliable when it comes to
determining fair market value - unless you have a great deal of
experience in pricing books.

D.
--
The STS-107 Columbia Loss FAQ can be found
at the following URLs:

Text-Only Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq.html

Enhanced HTML Version:
http://www.io.com/~o_m/columbia_loss_faq_x.html

Corrections, comments, and additions should be
e-mailed to , as well as posted to
sci.space.history and sci.space.shuttle for
discussion.

In article >, Bob Pastorio
> wrote:

> I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
> of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
> $200. <kof>
>
> Pastorio

<snip>

> An interesting early study of food, drink and table habits. The author
> lets little escape his notice, and covers various types of food,
> meals, wine, special occasions, and all sorts of other material from
> the pantry, including- The French Cafes; The Ancient Cook and His Art;
> The Making and Marring of Wine; Imperial Drinkers and Incidents in
> Germany; The Tables of the Ancient and Modern Egyptians; The Caesars
> at the Table; Strange Banquets; Authors and their Dietetics, and a
> whole lot more.
>
> The text is all the more interesting because Doran will repeat just
> about anything he has heard, as for example- "I have spoken of
> gigantic asparagus; the Jews had radishes that could vie with them, if
> it be true that a fox and cubs could burrow in the hollow of one, and
> that it was not uncommon to grow them of a hundred pounds in weight.
> It must have been such radishes as these that were employed by
> seditious mobs of old, as weapons, in insurrections. In such case, a
> rebellious people were always well victualled, and had peculiar
> facilities, not only to beat their adversaries, but to eat their own
> arms".

Sounds rather like Soyer's "Pantropheon". What is it about the
nineteenth century that led to such spotty (I was gonna say feeble, but
I suppose it's not really pandemic) scholarship? Maybe it's just that
what we would recognize as the sciences of logic, critical thinking,
and forensics have evolved over the years, but so many works of classic
19th-century scholarship are a little dubious in the area of
conclusions based on insufficient or improperly examined/presented
evidence.

Phil

Derek Lyons wrote:
> (The Bibliographer) wrote:
>
>>or university library. You can then photocopy the entire work, if you
>
> A damm good way to destroy the book by damaging the spine.

If you want a book to scan (or copy) it then a 200 USD used book is
overkill - the 20 USD ones are much better.

>>If you wish to purchase a copy for your own collection, ABEBOOKS,
>>one of several online booksearch services. lists eighteen available
>>copies, with some, indeed, at inflated prices. Among those at
>>reasonable cost may be mentioned:
>
> Of course many of those at your 'fair price' are in far worse shape
> than Forrest's copy. (And virtually none of the copies on ABEBooks
> are from known reliable dealers, which means you may not get what you
> are paying for, even at reduced prices.)

I've been using abebooks and bibliofind extensively over the last couple
years, and have always received what I've ordered. They may not be
known reliable dealers, but the traders there _are_ bookstores of some
kind, and want to stay in business.

>>Check ABEBOOKS, BIBLIOFIND, and several other online booksearch
>>services. You may well find the work for which you are searching
>>at a quite reasonable price. In any case, you probably can get a
>>good idea of the fair market value of all but the rarest titles.
>
> Book search services are utterly unreliable when it comes to
> determining fair market value - unless you have a great deal of
> experience in pricing books.

But they _do_ get you the cheapest books. Which is important when you want
books not for themselves but for the information they contain.

And they _do_ have instant price comparison, which is a good thing. And
abebooks has a "tell me when a book with these criteria comes in" which is
very very useful.

I know that there are stores out there who sell used reprints of King's
American Dispensatory at more than 300 USD a set (2 books) - when that
same reprint is still available brand new, from Eclectic Medical
Publications, at USD 285. (Search abebooks for author:lloyd and titel:
dispensatory to see two such bookstores. These two are as honest as used
car sellers - that is, if they can get away with screwing you they will.
Alwyn Books in particular is consistently overpricing their wares - I even
emailed them a couple years back, when they first sold the Dispensatory
for more than it costs new.) Fair rate for that 1984 reprint would be
around 250 USD, tops.

Which is why I just nod when told about dishonest pricing practises of
used book sellers.

Henriette

--
Henriette Kress, AHG Helsinki, Finland
Henriette's herbal homepage: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed
Best of RHOD: http://www.ibiblio.org/herbmed/rhod

>
>I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
>of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
>$200. <kof>
>

Hi Bob:

Funny that you should mention this. The first significant cookbook that I
acquired was Dr. John Doran's "Table Traits with Something on Them" (New York,
1855) . The dealer had no idea of its worth. Neither did I. I offered $5. The
dealer was happy to see it sold. It was beginner's luck, but I have continued
to buy cookbooks ever since-- including other editions of Doran's book, all of
which were priced under $50. It is very common book and even in perfect
condition, it is not worth $200.

But during the past few years, there has been a steep escalation in prices for
all cookbooks, especially in the US and UK. I assume this has simply meant that
there are now so many more cookbook collectors. Or perhaps, due to the
internet, dealers have found collectors willing to pay much more for pre-20th
century cookbooks.

Andy Smith

A. Smith wrote: <snip>

so I did a search at alibris.com and the result is below:


Table Traits With Something on Them.
by Doran, Dr.

price: $19.95
Ships within 2 to 3 days
Binding: hardbound Publisher: Redfield, New York Date Published: 1855

Description: Very Good cond (light stain to top of first 5 or 6 pages)
size: demy octavo (hinges cracked; extremities & joints rubbed or
shelf
wear or fraying)


I've edited a bit of the return from Alibris.com just for easy
readibility. So, Andy, $5- a good deal at any price.

I saw some used cookbooks at Brand Books in Glendale, California
today. They were asking $8- for books that are only $14- new at
Amazon.com.

I wanted to say that these bookdealers asking exorbitant amounts are
trying to deal them as antiques, but I guess "collectible" is a better
word.

(Derek Lyons) nattered on
:

> (The Bibliographer) wrote:
>
>>In article >,
>>Bob Pastorio > wrote:
>>>I got this on a mailing list I subscribe to. It was forwarded by one
>>>of the subscribers. Looks like an, um, interesting read. And only
>>>$200. <kof>
>>>Dr. Doran, "TABLE TRAITS, WITH SOMETHING ON THEM"
>>>New York; W.J. Widdleton, Publisher: 1865.
>>>Hardcover. 5.5"x8.25", 489 pages; publisher's brown ribbed cloth;
>>>covers with some soil and rubbing, tips bumped; endpapers creased;
>>>some internal soil; 1" stain on rear endpapers extending slightly into
>>>the last few pages of text. [04922] $200.00
>>
>>In other words, a fairly ratty copy.
>
> The importance of condition varies with the purpose for which you buy
> the book.

For $200.00 it had better be in pretty damned good condition, no matter
why I bought it. If research or reference is my goal, that is what
interlibrary loan is for.

>>or university library. You can then photocopy the entire work, if you
>>like, since copyright considerations no longer apply. At least thirteen
>>publicly-accessible collections in the United States have this
particular
>>imprint:
>
> A damm good way to destroy the book by damaging the spine.

I would agree with you. However, in this day and age one can get useful
reproductions of very old works without doing any more damage than what
would be required by reading. Don't put the book on a platen, bring the
photocopier to the book. They're called "digital cameras".

Phil > nattered on
d:

> Sounds rather like Soyer's "Pantropheon". What is it about the
> nineteenth century that led to such spotty (I was gonna say feeble, but
> I suppose it's not really pandemic) scholarship? Maybe it's just that
> what we would recognize as the sciences of logic, critical thinking,
> and forensics have evolved over the years

Not in the least. The difference is the matter of focus forced by a "full
field" and standing on the shoulders of giants in the present day. The
19th-century works you scoff at are the foundations of the modern social
sciences.

(Mark Preston) nattered on
le.com:

> I wanted to say that these bookdealers asking exorbitant amounts are
> trying to deal them as antiques, but I guess "collectible" is a better
> word.

Bookie Babies!

Gotta buy 'em all, Bookiemon!

On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 13:00:04 +0000, Bryan J. Maloney wrote:

> (Mark Preston) nattered on
> le.com:
>
>> I wanted to say that these bookdealers asking exorbitant amounts are
>> trying to deal them as antiques, but I guess "collectible" is a better
>> word.
>
> Bookie Babies!
>
> Gotta buy 'em all, Bookiemon!

Don't you mean, Gotta sell 'em all (and charge as much as the market
will bear)? But I must admit some of the Beanie Babies are cool. But
I'm the parent who will cut the tags off and give the toy to the real
baby to play with. Luckily the girls have decided their favourite thing
to do right now is to pull out the books and read.

And to keep this on topic... anyone know if there are any historic
cookbooks for kids? I've got one but all the recipes are way off so the
book's been given back to them to use as a picture book. The oldest was
very disappointed in the fondue that flopped. I've still got my older
Betty Crocker for Kids cookbook but that's not really historic (or do
cookbooks become historic at only 30 years?)

--
Cymru Llewes
Caer Llewys