>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I did
>>>> see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's indentured
>>>> servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more than X days a week.
>>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing contracts
>>> for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall seeing a
>>> primary source on this story either...
>> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both salmon
>> and oysters.
> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
> ages are fairly well documented.

Show us the documentation, then.

I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages
and I don't believe you.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

bogus address muttered....

>
>>>>> I have not seen it in a primary source. My memory of the account I
>>>>> did see was that it was a contract in which A was borrowing B's
>>>>> indentured servants, and agreeing not to feed them lobster more
>>>>> than X days a week.
>>>> I've heard a similar story for sturgeon, i.e. loggers signing
>>>> contracts for eating sturgeon only three days a week. Don't recall
>>>> seeing a primary source on this story either...
>>> I'm afraid that this exists as a tale in the Uk, too, with both
>>> salmon and oysters.
>> Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
>> ages are fairly well documented.
>
> Show us the documentation, then.
>
> I have read some primary sources on student riots in the Middle Ages
> and I don't believe you.
>

Absent "evidence", the anecdotal accounts of discord among the small
servant class of New England over too much lobster and/or salmon and
similar tales from the UK remain quite credible. A semester or two in the
dormitories of my youth provide all the confirmation of "student reaction"
required.

Why, in 1957, the tuna and noodles in the Wll Rice College Commons had the
students marching on the President's home demanding relief...

The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds
of "lack of evidence".

I find the tales as credible as my sincere belief that many/most/some of
mine and thine ancestry were adept at picking their noses (although little
documentary or graphic evidence of same is available).

I used to be fascinated by constant references to "pemmican" as a foodstuff
enjoyed by Native Americans. After actually trying some, I better
understood that AmerIndians (along with every one else) ate what was
available and like students, sailors and most others, complained loudly and
often about it. I suspect that boiled lobster gets old after daily doses
for a few weeks. I'd like to try, but will admit to once having tired of
beefsteak after two meals a day for 10 days.

Enough to make me desperately desire a bowl of grits, even without
butter....

.....and I've known merchant mariners, sailors and officers, who would never
eat any seafood of any sort...

TMO

In article >, Olivers
> wrote:

> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the grounds
> of "lack of evidence".

So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke muttered....

> In article >, Olivers
> > wrote:
>
>> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
>> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
>> grounds of "lack of evidence".
>
> So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
> defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.
>


You realize of course that it does. It's all a matter of perspective. Why
every noon I used to have to go out on the Bridge Wing with my sextant to
wait for it to reach its zenith and pass by on the way around, thus
signifying that local Noon had arrived. Of course, meanwhile the stars are
running their predictable courses around the earth so they can arrive at
the altitude necessary for dawn's fix.

Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups
forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
previous experiences and objecting to same? I suspect that an individual
raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish,
transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and
forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to
raise his/her voice in objection. Let's face it...caviar in your baked
potato goes well for the first week, but there comes a night when you'll
beg for bacon.

TMO

On Thu, 05 Feb 2004 17:43:03 -0600, Olivers >
wrote:


> I suspect that an individual
>raised in rural England, unlikely to have ever eaten fresh fish,
>transported on a diet of salt meat and dried peas to cold new England and
>forces to eat boiled salmon and lobster every day could be expected to
>raise his/her voice in objection.

And how much more so when it's badly cooked, as it likely was...
--
rbc: vixen Fairly harmless

Hit reply to email. But strip out the 'invalid.'
Though I'm very slow to respond.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli

In article >, Olivers
> wrote:

> Lazarus Cooke muttered....
>

> >
> > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
> > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.
> >
>
> You realize of course that it does.

I do

> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups
> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
> previous experiences and objecting to same?

I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the
same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and
yet I haven't seen a primary source.

When I see a primary source that I can check, I'll believe it. Until
then, I'll stay wary.
(I don't want to start talking about WMD...)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:37:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote:

>In article >, Olivers
> wrote:
>
>> Lazarus Cooke muttered....
>>
>
>> >
>> > So do stories about the sun going round the earth. Any other theory
>> > defies common sense and the evidence of my eyes.
>> >
>>
>> You realize of course that it does.
>
>I do
>
>> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of groups
>> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
>> previous experiences and objecting to same?
>
>I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the
>same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and
>yet I haven't seen a primary source.
>
Pops up all over the place? In northern colonies of a country that has
never been big on cooking prowess or known for lavishing unnecessary
expense on apprentices or indentured servants?

And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about
people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now
expensive.


>When I see a primary source that I can check, I'll believe it. Until
>then, I'll stay wary.
> (I don't want to start talking about WMD...)
>
>Lazarus


Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the ass you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia

>
> And just what is the moral? I missed that part. I thought it was about
> people getting tired of the same food every day, even though it is now
> expensive.

The moral is that even the finest products provide no true comfort.
Compare the Princess and the pea, or most fairy stories.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:37:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, Olivers
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Lazarus Cooke muttered....
> >>
> >> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of
groups
> >> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
> >> previous experiences and objecting to same?
> >
> >I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the
> >same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and
> >yet I haven't seen a primary source.
> >
> Pops up all over the place? In northern colonies of a country that has
> never been big on cooking prowess or known for lavishing unnecessary
> expense on apprentices or indentured servants?

Sorry, but yes, it seems to pop up all over the place, I even heard that
the carpenter's apprentices on the Loire river had stated in their contract
of apprenticeship that they should eat salmon no more than thrice a week.
Once again no primary source offered, neither did I search for one, salmon
being (documentedly) a most common fish in Loire river (among others)
before the second half of twentieth century, it was plausible enough for
me, even if not (by a stretch) for an historian.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

Olivers > nattered on
:


> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
> grounds of "lack of evidence".

I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are
propagated, no matter how false they actually are.

Bryan J. Maloney muttered....

> Olivers > nattered on
> :
>
>
>> The stories are too frequent, too reasonable and so well attuned to
>> observations of human nature today to have much deniability on the
>> grounds of "lack of evidence".
>
> I suggest that you go look up what an "urban legend" is and how they are
> propagated, no matter how false they actually are.
>
>
>

Since I remain a regular reader and contributor to the a.f.u ng (That
alt.folklore.urban), the home of urban legends, I suspect I'm quite well
attuned to the credible/incredible threshold of such legends. This is a
subject which googling may open entirely new and unconsidered vistas to you
about lobsters and other delicacies for the identured staff...

Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend".

TMO

>
> Hint: The literary references alone would serve to validate the "legend".
>
> TMO
eh?

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address