On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 12:44:01 +0000, Kate Dicey
> wrote:

>Here both student and apprentice riots on these issues in the middle
>ages are fairly well documented. Lucky buggers! In my day we could
>barely afford a cheese butty and pint of Newcastle Brown Ale at 11p a
>pint in the college bar! Salmon & oysters! Cor!

at least with salmon and lobsters you get very tired of it after three
days repeating it.

I remember as a child we had a visit of some directors of St.Ann paper
mill in England where the people almost shouted by joy when my mother
announced they would get some meat dish for dinner. Then they had
either had lobsters or salmon for dinner every day for two weeks when
visiting other pulp industries in Norway.

"Rodney Myrvaagnes" > a écrit dans le message de
...
> On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 10:37:47 +0000, Lazarus Cooke
> > wrote:
>
> >In article >, Olivers
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Lazarus Cooke muttered....
> >>
> >> Why would you disbelieve repeated and quite reasonbale anecdotes of
groups
> >> forced to dine repeatedly on foods unfamiliar to their childhood and
> >> previous experiences and objecting to same?
> >
> >I don't necessarily disbelieve them. I just become suspicious when the
> >same tale (which has a moral attached) pops up all over the place, and
> >yet I haven't seen a primary source.
> >
> Pops up all over the place? In northern colonies of a country that has
> never been big on cooking prowess or known for lavishing unnecessary
> expense on apprentices or indentured servants?

Sorry, but yes, it seems to pop up all over the place, I even heard that
the carpenter's apprentices on the Loire river had stated in their contract
of apprenticeship that they should eat salmon no more than thrice a week.
Once again no primary source offered, neither did I search for one, salmon
being (documentedly) a most common fish in Loire river (among others)
before the second half of twentieth century, it was plausible enough for
me, even if not (by a stretch) for an historian.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

In article >, Christophe Bachmann
> wrote:


> Sorry, but yes, it seems to pop up all over the place, I even heard that
> the carpenter's apprentices on the Loire river had stated in their contract
> of apprenticeship that they should eat salmon no more than thrice a week.

Exactly. It's an urban/rural legend.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

When ever I see lobster here, it makes me wonder about the first guy
who picked on of these up on the coast of Maine or somewhere, and
decided to eat it.

Think about it, , , , , ,



On 04 Feb 2004 08:11:02 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:

>TMO wrote:
>
>>
>>...and then there were the servants of 18th century littoral New England on
>>several occasions revolting against the practice of being fed on lobster,
>>then the cheapest of seafood products.
>
>
>
>I've read this for years in secondary sources. Anyone ever found a primary
>source that said this?
>
>Andy Smith

On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:55:30 -0800, Dr Pepper >
wrote:

>When ever I see lobster here, it makes me wonder about the first guy
>who picked on of these up on the coast of Maine or somewhere, and
>decided to eat it.

Never mind lobsters, what about raw oysters? I love 'em, but I can
easily imagine gnawing tree bark in preference to being the first
person to try one.

"Frogleg" > wrote in message
...

> >When ever I see lobster here, it makes me wonder about the first guy
> >who picked on of these up on the coast of Maine or somewhere, and
> >decided to eat it.

> Never mind lobsters, what about raw oysters? I love 'em, but I can
> easily imagine gnawing tree bark in preference to being the first
> person to try one.

I used to wonder the same thing about blue cheese...

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://kanyak.com

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 22:25:29 GMT, Frogleg > wrote:

>On Fri, 13 Feb 2004 11:55:30 -0800, Dr Pepper >
>wrote:
>
>>When ever I see lobster here, it makes me wonder about the first guy
>>who picked on of these up on the coast of Maine or somewhere, and
>>decided to eat it.
>
>Never mind lobsters, what about raw oysters? I love 'em, but I can
>easily imagine gnawing tree bark in preference to being the first
>person to try one.

Whether the Brits ate them or not, I feel sure the French were pulling
lobsters out of the Channel long before Columbus.

Whoever ate mollusks and crustaceans first was probably a
hunter-gatherer who routinely ate grubs and bugs anyway. Think of the
trouble he saved if he could grab one huge arthropod instead of
hundreds of little ones.

Michener's novel Chesapeake begins with a young outcast from an Indian
tribe observing a Great Blue Heron stabbing and eating a crab. He
then decides to try one himself.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a


The sound of a Great Blue Heron's wingbeats going by your head

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 21:39:56 +0100, Alf Christophersen
> wrote:

>at least with salmon and lobsters you get very tired of it after three
>days repeating it.

It comes to my mind my mother telling about a terrible marriage
present. In the saummer after their wedding, they found outside the
hut a big basket with 200 lobsters. They had almost no idea about what
to do about, but had to drive home and give all neighbours some of
them, but of course did eat lobsters for several days themselves too.
This was back in 1939, so no fridge, nor freezer available at that
time except a ice block fridge which could be partly used at home.
They didn't eat lobsters for many years afterwards (many years after
war she told me)

On 06 Feb 2004 16:11:03 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:

>Oysters, on the other hand, were so common in New York during colonial times
>that they were considered both a delicacy and food for the poor.

Back in 1974/75 I worked as a teacher on an fisherman island about 70
km from shore in Northern norway. There were two fishing industries
where the fishermen could deliver their catches, but they didn't
accept salmon and trout because it was almost no market for it since
it would take far too long time to transport the fish before it could
be eaten, so it would be rather oxidiced before eaten. They got of
course salmon daily in their net, so the freezers was full of them in
almost every home and it was the only fish I would get for free if I
cared about eating them. I stopped eating free salmon after just a few
days :-) So I understand quite well farm workers in elder days
refusing to eat it because the farm could catch as much salmon daily
for free as needed for feeding the workers. But very few farms had
such rights. My grandmothers farm had, and has such a privilege still
as I know. (But now they sell the shares to sport fishermen)

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:45:31 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
> wrote:

>Maybe Florida rock lobsters. Certainly not true of New England
>lobsters (_homarus_).
>
>While it is customary to serve them with melted butter on the side, I
>and others often forget to dip them.

remember to get a sample when visiting old home country (but, it is
extremely expensive today :-( During the period of fishery (Oct. 1
till April 1.) you have to pay btw. 600 and 1000 NOK pr kg ($90-$140
pr kg)

On Tue, 17 Feb 2004 19:42:35 +0100, Alf Christophersen
> wrote:

>On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 23:45:31 -0500, Rodney Myrvaagnes
> wrote:
>
>>Maybe Florida rock lobsters. Certainly not true of New England
>>lobsters (_homarus_).
>>
>>While it is customary to serve them with melted butter on the side, I
>>and others often forget to dip them.
>
>remember to get a sample when visiting old home country (but, it is
>extremely expensive today :-( During the period of fishery (Oct. 1
>till April 1.) you have to pay btw. 600 and 1000 NOK pr kg ($90-$140
>pr kg)

Wow! I didn't know they grew there. I last visited in 1958, in
Aalesund. My uncle had a herring seiner and there was a codfish-drying
plant nearby. Whale meat was available in the market, but I don't
think I ever saw a lobster.

BTW, Alf, I am not a native Norwegian, in spite of my name. My father
came to the US in 1929. I was born in New York state.



Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a

"Hawg Polo?" . . . "Hawg Polo"

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 08:47:07 +0200, "Opinicus" >
wrote:

>"Frogleg" > wrote

>> Never mind lobsters, what about raw oysters? I love 'em, but I can
>> easily imagine gnawing tree bark in preference to being the first
>> person to try one.
>
>I used to wonder the same thing about blue cheese...

Indeed. That's an item that occurred to me, too. Wasn't moldy bread
(penicillin) slapped on medieval battle wounds? Yet many bread molds
are toxic. How is it we treasure aged Stilton, and return packages of
molded cheddar to the supermarket?

In article >, Frogleg
> wrote:

> Wasn't moldy bread
> (penicillin) slapped on medieval battle wounds?

Was it? Can you give documentation?

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article >, Frogleg
> wrote:

> Yet many bread molds
> are toxic.

Which?

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>> Yet many bread molds are toxic.
> Which?

from M.D. Northolt & P.S.S. Soentoko, "Fungal growth on foodstuffs
related to mycotoxin contamination", in Samson, Hoekstra & van
Oorschut (eds), _Introduction to Food-Borne Fungi_, 1984:

Penicillium brevicompactum
Penicillium roqueforti
Penicillium verrucosum var. cyclopium
Penicillium verrucosum var. verrucosum

They mention only that these are a significant source of mycotoxin
contamination, not what the effects of the toxins are. Some of the
toxins are well-known, others I've never heard of before.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

In article >, bogus address
> wrote:

> >> Yet many bread molds are toxic.
> > Which?
>
> from M.D. Northolt & P.S.S. Soentoko, "Fungal growth on foodstuffs
> related to mycotoxin contamination", in Samson, Hoekstra & van
> Oorschut (eds), _Introduction to Food-Borne Fungi_, 1984:
>
> Penicillium brevicompactum
> Penicillium roqueforti
Isn't that the one in Roquefort cheese? Doesn't seem to have done me
much harm.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article >, Lazarus
Cooke > wrote:

> Penicillium roqueforti

See http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/biotech/fra/fra008.htm

2. Risks to Humans

P. roqueforti is a benign, nonpathogenic organism. Among
the literature reviewed for this assessment, there has been only
one reported case of pathogenicity.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

[toxic moulds in bread]
>> Penicillium roqueforti
> See http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/biotech/fra/fra008.htm
> P. roqueforti is a benign, nonpathogenic organism. Among
> the literature reviewed for this assessment, there has been only
> one reported case of pathogenicity.

The others were probably more important - P. verrucosum produces
citrinin and ochratoxin-A, which are implicated in Balkan epidemic
nephropathy.

Rye and maize are more susceptible to mycotoxin contamination than
wheat or wheat products, its seems. But since the rate of toxin
production varies with storage conditions, and does not always
correlate with fungal growth rate, it doesn't seem that anyone can
predict the real extent of these hazards. There is more on this
in P.G. Mantle, "Current views on the occurrence and significance
of Penicillium toxins", in _Filamentous Fungi in Foods and Feeds_,
supplement of the _Journal of Applied Bacteriology_, volume 67, 1989.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

In article >, bogus address
> wrote:

> Rye and maize are more susceptible to mycotoxin contamination than
> wheat or wheat products, its seems. But since the rate of toxin
> production varies with storage conditions, and does not always
> correlate with fungal growth rate, it doesn't seem that anyone can
> predict the real extent of these hazards.

I think this is nitpicking. Bread made from wheat is an incredibly safe
food. I'm glad to say (especially in view of one of the very
interesting articles on Bob Pastorio's hygiene site) that in most parts
of europe it's still handled by hand - you pick up the bread you want,
and hand it to the shopkeeper, who hands it back to you. Essentially
wheat bread moulds are not harmful. Millions upon millions of people
have tested this in an experiment that's gone on for thousands of
years. Rye is a very different business.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>> Rye and maize are more susceptible to mycotoxin contamination than
>> wheat or wheat products, its seems. But since the rate of toxin
>> production varies with storage conditions, and does not always
>> correlate with fungal growth rate, it doesn't seem that anyone can
>> predict the real extent of these hazards.
> I think this is nitpicking. Bread made from wheat is an incredibly
> safe food. [...] Essentially wheat bread moulds are not harmful.

I suspect the real reason they aren't harmful is that people don't
eat them. The sources I quoted were comparing moulds on bread with
those on whole (non-wheat) grains. If you have a load of mouldy
rye or maize to dispose of, you can just mill it and your customers
will be none the wiser until it's too late. A batch of mouldy bread
is obviously inedible and you can only throw it out.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

In article >,
Frogleg > wrote:
[... discussion of how someone first tried various foods. ...]
= How is it we treasure aged Stilton, and return packages of
= molded cheddar to the supermarket?

Interesting question. I've wondered about cheese mold. Is all
cheese mold safe to eat or are there some that are not (as you
commented about bread molds)?


--
Kind regards,

Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby Edgewood, NM "I'm the NRA!"
www.swcp.com/~crs USA Life Member since 1965

In article >, Charlie Sorsby
> wrote:
Is all
> cheese mold safe to eat
> or are there some that are not (as you
> commented about bread molds)?

For all practical purposes both cheese mold and bread mold is safe.
(although theres an area of uncertainty if you're a pregnant woman).

But of course we like some molds, others we don't like. It requires
quite a lot of skill (and experience) to make things go moldy in a way
that we'll like. So, in the caves where Roquefort cheese is aged, they
leave loaves of bread scattered around. These become very moldy and
encourage the spread of the spores of the mold that is wanted to make
the cheese taste good.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Charlie Sorsby wrote:
>
> In article >,
> Frogleg > wrote:
> [... discussion of how someone first tried various foods. ...]
> = How is it we treasure aged Stilton, and return packages of
> = molded cheddar to the supermarket?
>
> Interesting question. I've wondered about cheese mold. Is all
> cheese mold safe to eat or are there some that are not (as you
> commented about bread molds)?
>
> --
> Kind regards,
>
> Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby

If the cheese is a natural cheese, without other preservatives,
synthetic gums or oils etc, then the mould is harmless. Just cut it off.

Don't think I'd want to mess with any mould that grows on those plastic
cheese slices or Velveeta.

On Sun, 14 Mar 2004 12:02:14 -0700, (Charlie Sorsby)
wrote:

>In article >,
>Frogleg > wrote:
>[... discussion of how someone first tried various foods. ...]
>= How is it we treasure aged Stilton, and return packages of
>= molded cheddar to the supermarket?
>
>Interesting question. I've wondered about cheese mold. Is all
>cheese mold safe to eat or are there some that are not (as you
>commented about bread molds)?

[I distinctly remember seeing some pictures of how surface bread mold
spread filaments throughout a loaf, and the USDA says to discard moldy
bread. The effects of (unknown) mold can range from mild allergic
reaction to mold spores, to (apparently relatively rare) illness
caused by the toxins molds produce in growing.]

This site:

http://www.fsis.usda.gov/OA/pubs/molds.htm

says to cut off the mold on hard cheese that doesn't have specific
mold as a part of the manufacturing process, and discard those cheeses
that *do* have mold if a stranger mold shows up.

"Lazarus Cooke" > a écrit dans le message de
om...
> In article >, Charlie Sorsby
> > wrote:
> Is all
> > cheese mold safe to eat
> > or are there some that are not (as you
> > commented about bread molds)?
>
> For all practical purposes both cheese mold and bread mold is safe.
> (although theres an area of uncertainty if you're a pregnant woman).
>
> But of course we like some molds, others we don't like. It requires
> quite a lot of skill (and experience) to make things go moldy in a way
> that we'll like. So, in the caves where Roquefort cheese is aged, they
> leave loaves of bread scattered around. These become very moldy and
> encourage the spread of the spores of the mold that is wanted to make
> the cheese taste good.

If I may expand a little, they do not 'leave loaves of bread scattered
around', they specially bake rye bread loaves and put them in the vents
that bring air to the caves after inoculating them so that they slowly mold
away and cast a regular stream of spores through the air.

>
> Lazarus
>

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

In article >, Christophe Bachmann
> wrote:


> > But of course we like some molds, others we don't like. It requires
> > quite a lot of skill (and experience) to make things go moldy in a way
> > that we'll like. So, in the caves where Roquefort cheese is aged, they
> > leave loaves of bread scattered around. These become very moldy and
> > encourage the spread of the spores of the mold that is wanted to make
> > the cheese taste good.
>
> If I may expand a little, they do not 'leave loaves of bread scattered
> around', they specially bake rye bread loaves and put them in the vents
> that bring air to the caves after inoculating them so that they slowly mold
> away and cast a regular stream of spores through the air.

They must have tidied up since I was last there.



Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

All molds were thought to be safe, if not always pleasant, until the
discovery of the deadly carcinogenic afflotoxin molds on peanuts a few years
back.

Of course, some people are allergic to molds.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com


"Charlie Sorsby" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Frogleg > wrote:
> [... discussion of how someone first tried various foods. ...]
> = How is it we treasure aged Stilton, and return packages of
> = molded cheddar to the supermarket?
>
> Interesting question. I've wondered about cheese mold. Is all
> cheese mold safe to eat or are there some that are not (as you
> commented about bread molds)?
>
>
> --
> Kind regards,
>
> Charlie "Older than dirt" Sorsby Edgewood, NM "I'm the NRA!"
> www.swcp.com/~crs USA Life Member since 1965

In article <tdJ8c.9281$JO3.15250@attbi_s04>, Mark Zanger
> wrote:

> All molds were thought to be safe, if not always pleasant, until the
> discovery of the deadly carcinogenic afflotoxin molds on peanuts a few years
> back.
>
> Of course, some people are allergic to molds.

Thanks mark. My understanding is still that all moulds with the
exception of peanut are consdered safe.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>> All molds were thought to be safe, if not always pleasant, until the
>> discovery of the deadly carcinogenic afflotoxin molds on peanuts a
>> few years back.
>> Of course, some people are allergic to molds.
> Thanks mark. My understanding is still that all moulds with the
> exception of peanut are consdered safe.

Nobody who's looked at the literature in the last 20 years would consider
that way. Aflatoxin grows pretty well in maize, in which form it carries
through into the milk of corn-fed cattle, as the only slightly less toxic
substance aflatoxin-M. This is the one responsible for most aflatoxin
outbreaks in the US; aflatoxin on peanuts is mainly a problem when the
nuts are stored in tropical conditions, no growing area in the US gets
hot enough.

There is also zearalenone (immensely powerful oestrogen analogue; in
pigs it causes bizarre genital deformities in utero and is probably
not much less dangerous for humans), the ergot alkaloids on rye, and
the mycotoxins responsible for Balkan epidemic nephropathy (I forget
the exact death toll for that but in some years it's scarily high).

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article <tdJ8c.9281$JO3.15250@attbi_s04>, Mark Zanger
> > wrote:
>
>>All molds were thought to be safe, if not always pleasant, until the
>>discovery of the deadly carcinogenic afflotoxin molds on peanuts a few years
>>back.
>>
>>Of course, some people are allergic to molds.
>
> Thanks mark. My understanding is still that all moulds with the
> exception of peanut are consdered safe.

Ergot on rye?

Pastorio

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 23:15:47 -0500, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
>> In article <tdJ8c.9281$JO3.15250@attbi_s04>, Mark Zanger
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>All molds were thought to be safe, if not always pleasant, until the
>>>discovery of the deadly carcinogenic afflotoxin molds on peanuts a few years
>>>back.
>>>
>>>Of course, some people are allergic to molds.
>>
>> Thanks mark. My understanding is still that all moulds with the
>> exception of peanut are consdered safe.
>
>Ergot on rye?

Yes.

"Ergot, caused by the fungus Claviceps purpurea, is a disease of
cereal crops and grasses....Human poisoning was common in Europe in
the Middle Ages when ergoty rye bread was often consumed."

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/pla...ops/pp551w.htm

Ergotamine is an abortifacient and a vaso-constrictor. Ergotamine
tartrate is the primary ingredient of LSD. Ergot poisoning from a
large dose includes convulsions, halucinations and bizarre behaviour.
Smaller repeated doses may result in gangrene.

> "Ergot, caused by the fungus Claviceps purpurea, is a disease of
> cereal crops and grasses....Human poisoning was common in Europe in
> the Middle Ages when ergoty rye bread was often consumed."
>
> http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/pla...ops/pp551w.htm
>
> Ergotamine is an abortifacient and a vaso-constrictor. Ergotamine
> tartrate is the primary ingredient of LSD.

It isn't. It's a chemical from whch LSD can be made. It's commonly
prescribed as an anti-migraine drug; the standard dose is 2mg, which
is 8 times larger than a 1960s-level LSD dose and about 50 times the
LSD dose people usually take these days. That is, if there were any
significant LSD-like effects from ergotamine tartrate there'd be a
lot of migraine sufferers noticing it.

It takes complicated chemical processing to make anything hallucinogenic
from ergotamine, and your own metabolism can't do it. The idea that the
effects of ergot on rye have anything to do with LSD is a 1960s urban
legend. Mouldy rye might well make your fingers and toes drop off with
gangrene, but that's no hallucination. Goodman and Gilman's "The
Pharmacological Basis of Therapeutics" describes the toxic effects of
crude ergot in some detail.

You or your source are also mixed up about the abortifacient properties
of ergot. There are several oxytocic chemicals in it; the one used in
obstetrics is ergometrine, which is chemically related to ergotamine but
isn't the same thing.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
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On 29 Mar 2004 01:11:13 GMT, (bogus address)
wrote:

>
>
>> "Ergot, caused by the fungus Claviceps purpurea, is a disease of
>> cereal crops and grasses....Human poisoning was common in Europe in
>> the Middle Ages when ergoty rye bread was often consumed."
>>
>> http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/pla...ops/pp551w.htm
>>
>> Ergotamine is an abortifacient and a vaso-constrictor. Ergotamine
>> tartrate is the primary ingredient of LSD.
>
>It isn't. It's a chemical from whch LSD can be made. It's commonly
>prescribed as an anti-migraine drug; the standard dose is 2mg, which
>is 8 times larger than a 1960s-level LSD dose and about 50 times the
>LSD dose people usually take these days. That is, if there were any
>significant LSD-like effects from ergotamine tartrate there'd be a
>lot of migraine sufferers noticing it.

I didn't say ergotamine tartrate *was* LSD; I said it was a primary
ingredient. I *was* wrong about it being an abortifacient -- I seem to
remember that warning from my migraine days. It *is* contraindicated
for pregnant women or those who may become pregnant. Symptoms of
ergotism (ergot poisoning) may include writhing, tremors, convulsions,
hallucinations, and temporary or permanant psychosis. One presumes
medications prescribed for vascular headaches are not *quite* the same
formulation as either LSD or rye bread made from ergoty grain, just
the same as curare and digitalis are both poisons and medications.