Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

In article >,
(Ashley) wrote:

> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

While I'm not an expert, I think the answer is that there are no
surviving recipes from ancient Greece, although there are references to
food from which one might be able to reconstruct some.

You might try looking through the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are
probably the most readily available sources, and compiling references to
food.

--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com

In article >, David
Friedman > wrote:

> In article >,
> (Ashley) wrote:
>
> > Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
> > find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
> > it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
> > time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
> > has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
> > recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate
>
> While I'm not an expert, I think the answer is that there are no
> surviving recipes from ancient Greece, although there are references to
> food from which one might be able to reconstruct some.

No, no no. There's a brilliant book called "Fishcakes and Courtesans"
about the significance of food and (sorry about this} sex in ancient
greece. Hang on and I'll get you more details...

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On 10 Feb 2004 09:05:42 -0800, (Ashley) wrote:

>Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
>find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
>it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
>time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
>has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
>recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

Practice with Google search terms. If, indeed, you cannot find any
information on ancient Greek foods, your report might include all the
sources you'd consulted that didn't answer your questions.

Searching on

"greek food" history

turns up quite a number of references, some quite suitable for a
school report.

Even libraries and encyclopaedias have appropriate information.

In article >, Ashley
> wrote:

> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

Hi again, ashley.

The book is called "Courtesans and Fishcakes", by James Davidson. It is
quite brilliant, and I wanted to make a television series based on it
some years ago.

Here are some of James's notes. If you use them for your
report/project, make sure you give him the credit. It won't do you any
harm. On the contrary.
__________________________________________________ __
Ancient Greek food. From the notes of James Davidson (author of
"Courtesans and Fishcakes")

Many classical Greeks probably ate only one meal a day, the deipnon,
which belonged to the evening. Others ate also the ariston, often
translated `breakfast', but perhaps better seen as any meal which was
not a deipnon. It carried negative associations for many authors, and
implied, perhaps, daytime drinking. Each meal was formed around
another dualism of sitos, the staple (barley or wheat), and opson,
everything else. Plutarch says that in his time children were trained
to take bread with the left hand, opson with the right. Taking too
much opson led to a charge of opsophagia (unbalanced, indulgent
eating).
Because it was more tolerant of drought than wheat, the mainstay of
the Greek diet was barley, a cereal the Romans considered chicken-feed.
It was with barley that the helots paid their Spartan masters, and the
masters made their contributions to the common mess - barley cakes were
even used as ballots, to coopt new members. In 329/8 (a bad year?),
tithes offered to the goddesses at Eleusis indicate a barley-harvest
more than ten times that of wheat [x-ref. to Paul, 5]. Barley was
usually soaked and toasted before it was turned into porridge or cakes
(mazai, probably soft, moist agglomerations rather than baked loaves),
and a barley-roasting pan was brought by the bride to her wedding.
Cereal-preparation, like wool-working, belonged to the sphere of women.
The selling and the preparation of meat and fish, by contrast, was
normally in the hands of men.
Meat was rarely eaten outside the context of sacrifice - only
inedible parts were burnt for the gods -, which rarely concluded
without a feast, although portions were sometimes taken home or sold.
The Greek for `sacrificer', mageiros, also means `butcher', and `chef'.
Sacrifice, an entire city offering many oxen (the most expensive and
honorific victims) at an annual festival, a household offering a sheep
or a goat to a favourite divinity, an individual pouring out a libation
of a little wine, was the central religious practice, accompanied by
prayers which directed the gods' favour in particular directions. Like
other gifts of robes, property or statues, sacrifice continued a
relationship with the gods which looked backwards (in thanks) and
forwards (in expectation) at the same time. Its effectiveness was
measured in personal or communal success, often of a military or
material nature, and avoidance of disaster. There was nothing
mechanical about this relationship, however. Divine goodwill could be
cultivated or jeopardised but never bought.
Because of the importance of communal sacrifice, we can get an idea
of how much meat was consumed annually by an average Athenian from
sacrificial calendars and the sale of hides, the perquisite, usually,
of the priest presiding. Although outsiders considered Athens
exceptional for the number of festivals and the quantity of sacrificial
victims, even there meat formed a small part of the diet, less than one
twentieth, perhaps, of the amount consumed by modern Europeans.
Despite the extraordinary variety we find in medical writers and
comic fragments, in most cases it would have been lentils or chickpeas
that accompanied the barley cake or bread. Athenian sources treat milk
products as a luxury, although cheese appeared on the tables of the
Spartan mess and was associated especially with the more pastoral
culture of Sicily. Olive oil, wine and figs completed the diet.
________________________________________________

Good luck


Lazarus

If you're really stuck and need more, email me at

lazarus (at) STUPIDcurlewfilms dot com

and take out the stupid bit.

--
Remover the rock from the email address

I agree, it's a wonderful book.

One impression that I got from the book that the notes below leave out is
the favored status of fish in the diet of the Athenians. As I recall, the
author felt that fish of various sorts was highly prized and sought after
as a food because, since they were not sacrificed as meat was, the buyer
could both eat as much as he could afford/wanted and could also buy the
quality of fish that he purchased.

toodles,gretchen

--On Tuesday, February 10, 2004 10:33 PM +0000 Lazarus Cooke
> wrote:

> In article >, Ashley
> > wrote:
>
>> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
>> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
>> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
>> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
>> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
>> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate
>
> Hi again, ashley.
>
> The book is called "Courtesans and Fishcakes", by James Davidson. It is
> quite brilliant, and I wanted to make a television series based on it
> some years ago.
>
> Here are some of James's notes. If you use them for your
> report/project, make sure you give him the credit. It won't do you any
> harm. On the contrary.
> __________________________________________________ __
> Ancient Greek food. From the notes of James Davidson (author of
> "Courtesans and Fishcakes")
>
> Many classical Greeks probably ate only one meal a day, the deipnon,
> which belonged to the evening. Others ate also the ariston, often
> translated `breakfast', but perhaps better seen as any meal which was
> not a deipnon. It carried negative associations for many authors, and
> implied, perhaps, daytime drinking. Each meal was formed around
> another dualism of sitos, the staple (barley or wheat), and opson,
> everything else. Plutarch says that in his time children were trained
> to take bread with the left hand, opson with the right. Taking too
> much opson led to a charge of opsophagia (unbalanced, indulgent
> eating).
> Because it was more tolerant of drought than wheat, the mainstay of
> the Greek diet was barley, a cereal the Romans considered chicken-feed.
> It was with barley that the helots paid their Spartan masters, and the
> masters made their contributions to the common mess - barley cakes were
> even used as ballots, to coopt new members. In 329/8 (a bad year?),
> tithes offered to the goddesses at Eleusis indicate a barley-harvest
> more than ten times that of wheat [x-ref. to Paul, 5]. Barley was
> usually soaked and toasted before it was turned into porridge or cakes
> (mazai, probably soft, moist agglomerations rather than baked loaves),
> and a barley-roasting pan was brought by the bride to her wedding.
> Cereal-preparation, like wool-working, belonged to the sphere of women.
> The selling and the preparation of meat and fish, by contrast, was
> normally in the hands of men.
> Meat was rarely eaten outside the context of sacrifice - only
> inedible parts were burnt for the gods -, which rarely concluded
> without a feast, although portions were sometimes taken home or sold.
> The Greek for `sacrificer', mageiros, also means `butcher', and `chef'.
> Sacrifice, an entire city offering many oxen (the most expensive and
> honorific victims) at an annual festival, a household offering a sheep
> or a goat to a favourite divinity, an individual pouring out a libation
> of a little wine, was the central religious practice, accompanied by
> prayers which directed the gods' favour in particular directions. Like
> other gifts of robes, property or statues, sacrifice continued a
> relationship with the gods which looked backwards (in thanks) and
> forwards (in expectation) at the same time. Its effectiveness was
> measured in personal or communal success, often of a military or
> material nature, and avoidance of disaster. There was nothing
> mechanical about this relationship, however. Divine goodwill could be
> cultivated or jeopardised but never bought.
> Because of the importance of communal sacrifice, we can get an idea
> of how much meat was consumed annually by an average Athenian from
> sacrificial calendars and the sale of hides, the perquisite, usually,
> of the priest presiding. Although outsiders considered Athens
> exceptional for the number of festivals and the quantity of sacrificial
> victims, even there meat formed a small part of the diet, less than one
> twentieth, perhaps, of the amount consumed by modern Europeans.
> Despite the extraordinary variety we find in medical writers and
> comic fragments, in most cases it would have been lentils or chickpeas
> that accompanied the barley cake or bread. Athenian sources treat milk
> products as a luxury, although cheese appeared on the tables of the
> Spartan mess and was associated especially with the more pastoral
> culture of Sicily. Olive oil, wine and figs completed the diet.
> ________________________________________________
>
> Good luck
>
>
> Lazarus
>
> If you're really stuck and need more, email me at
>
> lazarus (at) STUPIDcurlewfilms dot com
>
> and take out the stupid bit.
>
> --
> Remover the rock from the email address

Here is a page that can give you an idea about the recipes you are looking
for: http://www.godecookery.com/byznrec/byznrec.htm.

Here is another site that is about a Roman gourmet during the time of
Tiberius: http://www.latin.fsbusiness.co.uk/apicius.htm. Here are some
redactions/translations of recipes:
http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~mjw/recipes...-rom-coll.html and
possible menus http://www.dl.ket.org/latin3/mores/food/cenbene.htm. Since
the Roman and Greek cultures intermixed, this also may be a good place to
get a feel for the diet of the times and region.

Hope this helps.
Melissa


"Ashley" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

One note, remember the list of menus looked like a school project which had
foods not known to Europe at that time. Stick to the translated recipes
from Apicius if you can find them.

Melissa


"Ophelia" > wrote in message
...
...snip... and possible menus
http://www.dl.ket.org/latin3/mores/food/cenbene.htm. ...snip...

In article <83745850.1076435328@grumpus>, Gretchen Beck
> wrote:

> I agree, it's a wonderful book.
>
> One impression that I got from the book that the notes below leave out is
> the favored status of fish in the diet of the Athenians. As I recall, the
> author felt that fish of various sorts was highly prized and sought after
> as a food because, since they were not sacrificed as meat was, the buyer
> could both eat as much as he could afford/wanted and could also buy the
> quality of fish that he purchased.
>
Absolutely. I've obviously left out 99.999% of the book - partly
because I think it's stored in my girlfriend's studio.

the main point about it that I remember is the distinction between
savory relishy foods and bulky filling foods. This distinction filled
all of greek thought about food.

But since you mention the greek love of fish, here are some wonderful
quotations from James's research (I didn't quote them because I didn't
want to put his stuff on the internet, but it's probably in the book):

Strabo 14.2.21: `A lyre-player was giving a demonstration of his art.
Everybody was listening, until at a certain point the fish-bell rang
and they abandoned him and went off to the fish-stalls, except for one
man, who happened to be hard of hearing. So the musician went up to him
and said "I must express my gratitude, sir, for your courtesy and
appreciation; all the others disappeared the moment they heard the
fish-bell." To which the other responded "What's that? has the bell
rung already?" and when the musician said that it had, he quickly said
goodbye and went to join the others.

Philemon, The Soldier: `For a yearning stole up on me to go forth and
tell the world, and not only the world but the heavens too, how I
prepared the dish - By Athena, how sweet it is to get it right every
time - What a fish it was I had tender before me! What a dish I made of
it! Not drugged senseless with cheeses, nor window-boxed with
dandifying herbs, it emerged from the oven as naked as the day it was
born. So tender, so soft was the fire I invested in the cooking of it.
You wouldn't believe the result. It was just like when a chicken gets
hold of something bigger than she can swallow and runs around in a
circle, unable to let it out of her sight, determined to get it down,
while the other chickens chase after her. It was just the same: the
first man among them to discover the delights of the dish leapt up and
fled taking the platter with him for a lap of the circuit, the others
hot on his heels. I allowed myself a shriek of joy, as some snatched at
something, some snatched at everything and others snatched at nothing
at all. And yet I had merely taken into my care some mud-eating
river-fish. If I had got hold of something more exceptional, a "little
grey" from Attica, say, or a boar-fish from [Amphilochian] Argos, or
from dear old Sicyon the fish that Poseidon carries to the gods in
heaven, a conger-eel, then everyone would have attained to a state of
divinity. I have discovered the secret of eternal life; men already
dead I make to walk again, once they but smell it in their nostrils.'

Archestratus on `boar-fish':`But if you go to the prosperous land of
Ambracia and happen to see the boar-fish, buy it! Even if it costs its
weight in gold, don't leave without it, lest the dread vengeance of the
deathless ones breathe down on you; for this fish is the flower of
nectar...'

.... on Rhodian dogfish:`It could mean your death, but if they won't
sell it to you, take it by force... afterwards you can submit patiently
to your fate.'

.... on eels:`There you have the advantage over all the rest of us
mortals, citizen of Messina, as you put such fare to your lips. The
eels of the Strymon river, on the other hand, and those of lake Copais
have a formidable reputation for excellence thanks to their large size
and wondrous girth. All in all I think the eel rules over everything
else at the feast and commands the field of pleasure, despite being the
only fish with no backbone.'

Lynceus of Samos, How to shop: `One thing you will find useful, when
standing at the fish-stalls face to face with the unblinking
fishmongers, is abuse. Call Archestratus to the stand, the author of
the Life of Luxury, or another one of the poets and read out a line,
"the striped bream is an awful fish, completely worthless' and in
Spring try the line "only buy tuna in winter", and in summer "the
grey-mullet is wonderful when winter has arrived", and many other lines
of that sort. For you will scare off all the shoppers and force the
fishmonger to accept a price you think is right.'

Antiphanes 217 K-A:`Is it not strange, that if someone happens to be
selling fish recently deceased, he addresses us with a devilish scowl
and knotted brow, but if they are quite past their sell-by date, he
laughs and jokes? It should be the other way round. In the first case
the seller should laugh, and in the second go to the devil.'Some
fragments concerning symbolic cakes:


Heraclides of Syracuse Peri Thesmon, ap. Ath.14.647a: `in Syracuse on
the day of Completion (Panteleia) in the festival of Thesmophoria cakes
of sesame and honey are moulded in the shape of the female pudenda.
They are called, throughout the whole of Sicily, `mylloi' and carried
about in honour of the goddesses.'

Iatrocles On Cakes ap. Ath. 14.647bc: `the pyramous, as it is called,
is not different from the so-called pyramid cake; for this is made from
wheat roasted and soaked in honey. They are offered as prizes to he who
has stayed awake during the night festivals.'

Sosibios On Alcman book three ap. Ath. 14.646: On Kribanai (Pot-baked
cakes) `in shape they resemble breasts, and the Spartans use them at
women's feasts (hestiaseis), carrying them around whenever the girls
who follow in the choir are ready to sing the hymn of praise prepared
for the maiden.'

Philitas on Irregular Words ap. Ath. 14.645d. On the kreion, a cake or
loaf which the Argives carry from the bride to the bridegroom: `It is
baked on charcoal and the friends are invited to partake of it. It is
served with honey'

Ath. 14.645a: Amphiph n (Light-about cake) `A plakous (flat-cake)
dedicated to Artemis, having lighted candles all about it. Philemon in
Beggarwoman or Woman of Rhodes: "Artemis, my dear mistress, this
amphiphon I bring for you, o mistress and offerings for a libation." It
is mentioned also by Diphilus in Hecate. Philochorus attests the name
amphiphon and says it was carried to the temples of Artemis and also to
the crossroads, because on that day (Munichion 16) the moon, just as it
sets, is overtaken by the rising sun, so that the sky is lighted doubly
(amphiph s).'

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

>
> The book is called "Courtesans and Fishcakes", by James Davidson. It is
> quite brilliant, and I wanted to make a television series based on it
> some years ago.

It is quite a good book. Though it should be noted that the "fishcakes"
part only takes up about a quarter or third of it; the rest is devoted to
non-food related topics.

Another recommendation is _Siren Feasts_, by Andrew Dalby (Routledge, 1996):
it's much more comprehensive on the subject of food in ancient Greece.

Ashley, for your purposes, you might look at _The Classical Cookbook_, by
Andrew Dalby and Sally Grainger: I haven't read it, but it contains lots of
adaptations of ancient recipes. Also, Googling "ancient greek recipes"
comes up with lots of sites. Good luck with your project!

-Andrew

Ashley,

There are some additional books that you might want to look at for
your report:

1) "The Cambridge World History of Food", Vol.2, Edited by Kenneth
Kiple & Kriemhild Conee Omelas, Published by Cambridge University
Press, 2000
2) "Food: A Culinary History from Antiquity to the Present", Editied
by Jean-Louis Flandrin & Massimo Montanari, Published by Colombia
University Press, 1999
3) "History of Food", by Maguelonne Toussaint-Samat, Published by
Blankwell Publishing, 1992.

I hope these are helpful. All three have a lot on food as a part of
culture, and the last one has quite a lot on Greek food/culture. They
should be available to you at either your local city library or a
nearby college or university.


(Ashley) wrote in message . com>...
> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate

In article >, Andrew Fenton
> wrote:

> Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
> >
> > The book is called "Courtesans and Fishcakes", by James Davidson. It is
> > quite brilliant, and I wanted to make a television series based on it
> > some years ago.
>
> It is quite a good book.

Grumpy

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >, Andrew Fenton
> > wrote:
>
> > Lazarus Cooke wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > The book is called "Courtesans and Fishcakes", by James Davidson. It is
> > > quite brilliant, and I wanted to make a television series based on it
> > > some years ago.
> >
> > It is quite a good book.
>
> Grumpy

What about Sleepy, Happy, Doc and the rest of the gang?

-Andrew

ACTUALLY, , , , , ,
If you research the acient ROMAN foods, the will be much the same as
early GREEK food. The Romans captured Greeks, and made them slaves
anfd they cooked for the Romans, therefore, Roman food IS Greek food.

Ron C.

==========================================



On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 18:31:45 GMT, David Friedman
> wrote:

>In article >,
> (Ashley) wrote:
>
>> Hi, I'm doing a report/project for school, and it requires that I make
>> find informmationon food from Ancient Greece. I also need a report with
>> it(about the food and how it was used). Currently, I'm having a hard
>> time finding anything about Ancient Greek food/culture/etc. If anyone
>> has any recipes of Ancient Greek foods, that would be great. I need the
>> recipes by Tues. If you can provide me with any recipes, I'd appreciate
>
>While I'm not an expert, I think the answer is that there are no
>surviving recipes from ancient Greece, although there are references to
>food from which one might be able to reconstruct some.
>
>You might try looking through the Iliad and the Odyssey, which are
>probably the most readily available sources, and compiling references to
>food.

Dr muttered....

> ACTUALLY, , , , , ,
> If you research the acient ROMAN foods, the will be much the same as
> early GREEK food. The Romans captured Greeks, and made them slaves
> anfd they cooked for the Romans, therefore, Roman food IS Greek food.
>

One memorable difference, apparently....or at least rumored.

Unusually, Roman soldiers on field duty apparently became quite restive and
even mutinous when their meat ration was high, while their favorite and
best accepted ration were cooked grains, apparently a sort of multi-grain
cooked cereal/gruel, not conventional bread. Historians seem to have
established that "ordinary" Roamns ate little meat (and didn't seem to want
much more). One could certainly assume that the historical "track" runs on
through time to polenta and mammaglia (and that the original pastas could
well have been dried versions stabilized for portability and easy to
"reconstitute?).

Somehow, although I'm fond of Nuoc Mam, I rarely use it in my Cream of
Wheat or Oatmeal. Did the Romans use garum to flavor porridge?

TMO

chick peas boiled all day with lots of garlic and some Mediterranean green
leaf cabbage. flat bread made with stone ground flour (with bits of stone
mixed in with the flour), with some cheese (something like Philadelphia
cream cheese again flavored with garlic. A thick wine with a slightly burnt
flavor mixed with water to thin it out and sweetened with honey.

Fish was a big one, as well as some sort of sauce.



"Olivers" > wrote in message
...
> Dr muttered....
>
> > ACTUALLY, , , , , ,
> > If you research the acient ROMAN foods, the will be much the same as
> > early GREEK food. The Romans captured Greeks, and made them slaves
> > anfd they cooked for the Romans, therefore, Roman food IS Greek food.
> >
>
> One memorable difference, apparently....or at least rumored.
>
> Unusually, Roman soldiers on field duty apparently became quite restive
and
> even mutinous when their meat ration was high, while their favorite and
> best accepted ration were cooked grains, apparently a sort of multi-grain
> cooked cereal/gruel, not conventional bread. Historians seem to have
> established that "ordinary" Roamns ate little meat (and didn't seem to
want
> much more). One could certainly assume that the historical "track" runs
on
> through time to polenta and mammaglia (and that the original pastas could
> well have been dried versions stabilized for portability and easy to
> "reconstitute?).
>
> Somehow, although I'm fond of Nuoc Mam, I rarely use it in my Cream of
> Wheat or Oatmeal. Did the Romans use garum to flavor porridge?
>
> TMO