>Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
>Mexico/Latina and South America?
>


There are numerous references in Bernardino Sahagún's Florentine Codex, which
is the best single source of pre-Columbian Aztec cookery. Here's one reference:

"White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with maize
grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of maize
softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with seeds;
tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen; roast
quail."

Andy Smith

"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...

> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with
maize
> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
> tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of
maize
> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
> softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with
seeds;
> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
roast
> quail."

Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)

--

Opinicus muttered....

> "ASmith1946" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales
>> with
> maize
>> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in;
>> red tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a
>> dough of
> maize
>> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of
>> maize softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or
>> sprinkled with
> seeds;
>> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
> roast
>> quail."
>
> Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)
>

The tamal (appropriate singular) must have developed fairly early in the
MesoAmerican corn-based food chain, if for no other reason as a method of
producing a portable food which could be reheated/"reconstituted" easily,
and wrapped in corn shucks, banana leaf or other suitable material, didn't
require a bowl or container.

Containing everything, all the way from mais-only, sweetened or
unsweetened, all the way through every available meat up to the fruit
filled Christmas tamales, they vary widely by region and even family
tradition.

TMO

Tamales enriched with fat not only can be reheated, but hold heat for a long
time. This, and not the spicing, was the source of the street vendor's cry
"hot tamales" in turn of the 20th Century southern US.

Another point about the diffused leafbreads is that many were not called by
the Aztecan term, "tamal."


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com


"Olivers" > wrote in message
...
> Opinicus muttered....
>
> > "ASmith1946" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales
> >> with
> > maize
> >> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in;
> >> red tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a
> >> dough of
> > maize
> >> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of
> >> maize softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or
> >> sprinkled with
> > seeds;
> >> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
> > roast
> >> quail."
> >
> > Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)
> >
>
> The tamal (appropriate singular) must have developed fairly early in the
> MesoAmerican corn-based food chain, if for no other reason as a method of
> producing a portable food which could be reheated/"reconstituted" easily,
> and wrapped in corn shucks, banana leaf or other suitable material, didn't
> require a bowl or container.
>
> Containing everything, all the way from mais-only, sweetened or
> unsweetened, all the way through every available meat up to the fruit
> filled Christmas tamales, they vary widely by region and even family
> tradition.
>
> TMO

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
> >Mexico/Latina and South America?
> >
>
> There are numerous references in Bernardino Sahagún's Florentine Codex, which
> is the best single source of pre-Columbian Aztec cookery. Here's one reference:
>
> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with maize
> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
> tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of maize
> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
> softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with seeds;
> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen; roast
> quail."
>
> Andy Smith

Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?

But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
tamales this past Christmas/New Year.

Hi Arri:

Bernardino de Sahagún was a Franciscan, who came from Spain to Mexico in 1529.
He learned Nahuatl, and under his direction, Aztec priests compiled materials
in their native language. By today's standards, these comments are just notes.
Needless to say, his manuscript was not published for centuries after his
death, so editors didn't have the opportunity to help him make his meanings
clear. Alas, we have little idea what many of the things he noted in his
manuscript mean.

Below is anothor of his comments re tamales. Both quotes are from the book
dealing with "what kings and lords ate." The translators, Arthur Anderson and
Charles E. Dibble, do have a few notes on some items noted in the text, so you
might want to look at Book VIII.

"Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries added;
tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales made
with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth seed
dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize; squash
cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili; green
amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."

Andy Smith
>
>Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
>The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
>modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?
>
>But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
>tamales this past Christmas/New Year.
>
>
>
>
>
>

"ASmith1946" > wrote

> "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries
added;
> tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales
made
> with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth
seed
> dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize;
squash
> cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili;
green
> amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."

Drool. Are things like this still being made, I wonder?

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

Opinicus wrote:
>
> "ASmith1946" > wrote
>
> > "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries
> added;
> > tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> > greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales
> made
> > with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth
> seed
> > dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize;
> squash
> > cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> > greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili;
> green
> > amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."
>
> Drool. Are things like this still being made, I wonder?
>
> --
> Bob
>

Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
fillings, sweet and savoury.

Amaranth seeds can be bought in any wholefood shop and sometimes the
greens are available as well. Seem to recall that amaranth is still
widely used in parts of South America; not certain about Mexico.

I eat the purslane that is a weed in our garden (all organic); a fitting
revenge!
Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
it.

Haven't seen maize flowers for sale, but squash blossoms certainly can
be had locally.

Toasted or dried maize can be had as chicos or atole or nixtamal.

While I haven't had tortillas made with honey, sopaipillas (a type of
fried bread) are commonly served with honey.

Squash certainly is widely used locally, in a variety of forms.

Not certain what 'dry land chili' is in that context; chiles are a dry
land crop anyway around here.

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
> Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
> fillings, sweet and savoury.

Meat tamales in California traditionally have olives in them. The variations
are a somewhat new thing around here. One wonderful tamale that has been the
introduction of cheese and green chile tamales! Marvelous! I don't know
where they were imported from but the use of Monterey Jack cheese seems to
indicate that they have been integrated if not home developed. Sweet tamales
are now much easier to find here - which is a good thing!

> Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
> it.

I remember gathering these as a child (a long time ago) here in Sandy Eggo.
We generally ate them as a fresh fruit. Later in life, I often gathered them
at my workplace where they grew in abundance. Those of us who gathered them
usually ate them "out of hand" - with caution! ;-) It isn't too far to
travel from N.M. to Sandy Eggo. Please consider joining us on June 12th! I'd
love to meet you in person!

Cheerio,
Charlie

Charles Gifford wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
> > fillings, sweet and savoury.
>
> Meat tamales in California traditionally have olives in them. The variations
> are a somewhat new thing around here. One wonderful tamale that has been the
> introduction of cheese and green chile tamales! Marvelous! I don't know
> where they were imported from but the use of Monterey Jack cheese seems to
> indicate that they have been integrated if not home developed. Sweet tamales
> are now much easier to find here - which is a good thing!
>
> > Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
> > it.
>
> I remember gathering these as a child (a long time ago) here in Sandy Eggo.
> We generally ate them as a fresh fruit. Later in life, I often gathered them
> at my workplace where they grew in abundance. Those of us who gathered them
> usually ate them "out of hand" - with caution! ;-) It isn't too far to
> travel from N.M. to Sandy Eggo. Please consider joining us on June 12th! I'd
> love to meet you in person!
>
> Cheerio,
> Charlie

TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London. Nothing
more in the books until next year. June is also my busy season for my
gardening business.

But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along the
rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all built up
now no doubt, right to the very edge.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> Hi Arri:
>
> Bernardino de Sahagún was a Franciscan, who came from Spain to Mexico in 1529.
> He learned Nahuatl, and under his direction, Aztec priests compiled materials
> in their native language.

Yes I know that.

By today's standards, these comments are just notes.
> Needless to say, his manuscript was not published for centuries after his
> death, so editors didn't have the opportunity to help him make his meanings
> clear. Alas, we have little idea what many of the things he noted in his
> manuscript mean.

That's normal I think.

>
> Below is anothor of his comments re tamales. Both quotes are from the book
> dealing with "what kings and lords ate." The translators, Arthur Anderson and
> Charles E. Dibble, do have a few notes on some items noted in the text, so you
> might want to look at Book VIII.

Might just do that.

>
> "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries added;
> tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales made
> with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth seed
> dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize; squash
> cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili; green
> amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."
>
> Andy Smith
> >
> >Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
> >The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
> >modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?
> >
> >But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
> >tamales this past Christmas/New Year.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >