The web has a couple of stories about the begining of tamales.
Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
Mexico/Latina and South America?

>Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
>Mexico/Latina and South America?
>


There are numerous references in Bernardino Sahagún's Florentine Codex, which
is the best single source of pre-Columbian Aztec cookery. Here's one reference:

"White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with maize
grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of maize
softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with seeds;
tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen; roast
quail."

Andy Smith

"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...

> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with
maize
> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
> tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of
maize
> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
> softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with
seeds;
> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
roast
> quail."

Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)

--

Opinicus muttered....

> "ASmith1946" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales
>> with
> maize
>> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in;
>> red tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a
>> dough of
> maize
>> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of
>> maize softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or
>> sprinkled with
> seeds;
>> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
> roast
>> quail."
>
> Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)
>

The tamal (appropriate singular) must have developed fairly early in the
MesoAmerican corn-based food chain, if for no other reason as a method of
producing a portable food which could be reheated/"reconstituted" easily,
and wrapped in corn shucks, banana leaf or other suitable material, didn't
require a bowl or container.

Containing everything, all the way from mais-only, sweetened or
unsweetened, all the way through every available meat up to the fruit
filled Christmas tamales, they vary widely by region and even family
tradition.

TMO

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
> >Mexico/Latina and South America?
> >
>
> There are numerous references in Bernardino Sahagún's Florentine Codex, which
> is the best single source of pre-Columbian Aztec cookery. Here's one reference:
>
> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales with maize
> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in; red
> tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a dough of maize
> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of maize
> softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or sprinkled with seeds;
> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen; roast
> quail."
>
> Andy Smith

Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?

But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
tamales this past Christmas/New Year.

Hi Arri:

Bernardino de Sahagún was a Franciscan, who came from Spain to Mexico in 1529.
He learned Nahuatl, and under his direction, Aztec priests compiled materials
in their native language. By today's standards, these comments are just notes.
Needless to say, his manuscript was not published for centuries after his
death, so editors didn't have the opportunity to help him make his meanings
clear. Alas, we have little idea what many of the things he noted in his
manuscript mean.

Below is anothor of his comments re tamales. Both quotes are from the book
dealing with "what kings and lords ate." The translators, Arthur Anderson and
Charles E. Dibble, do have a few notes on some items noted in the text, so you
might want to look at Book VIII.

"Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries added;
tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales made
with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth seed
dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize; squash
cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili; green
amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."

Andy Smith
>
>Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
>The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
>modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?
>
>But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
>tamales this past Christmas/New Year.
>
>
>
>
>
>

"ASmith1946" > wrote

> "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries
added;
> tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales
made
> with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth
seed
> dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize;
squash
> cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili;
green
> amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."

Drool. Are things like this still being made, I wonder?

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

Cornmeal cooked in leaves or cornhusks was in use throughout the Americas by
the time of European contact, which means the method has to be thousands of
years old just to account for the diffusion.

Leafbreads were noted by John Smith in Virginia, by early visitors to the
Iroquois, and by the Spanish expeditions before them.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com






"Mr_Bill" > wrote in message
...
> The web has a couple of stories about the begining of tamales.
> Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
> Mexico/Latina and South America?

Tamales enriched with fat not only can be reheated, but hold heat for a long
time. This, and not the spicing, was the source of the street vendor's cry
"hot tamales" in turn of the 20th Century southern US.

Another point about the diffused leafbreads is that many were not called by
the Aztecan term, "tamal."


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com


"Olivers" > wrote in message
...
> Opinicus muttered....
>
> > "ASmith1946" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >> "White tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; white tamales
> >> with
> > maize
> >> grains thrown in; hard, white tamales with grains of maize thrown in;
> >> red tamales with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales made of a
> >> dough of
> > maize
> >> softened in lime, with beans forming a sea shell on top; tamales of
> >> maize softened in wood ashes; turkey pasty cooked in a pot, or
> >> sprinkled with
> > seeds;
> >> tamales of meat cooked with maize and yellow chili; roast turkey hen;
> > roast
> >> quail."
> >
> > Great menu. I'll have one of each... ;-)
> >
>
> The tamal (appropriate singular) must have developed fairly early in the
> MesoAmerican corn-based food chain, if for no other reason as a method of
> producing a portable food which could be reheated/"reconstituted" easily,
> and wrapped in corn shucks, banana leaf or other suitable material, didn't
> require a bowl or container.
>
> Containing everything, all the way from mais-only, sweetened or
> unsweetened, all the way through every available meat up to the fruit
> filled Christmas tamales, they vary widely by region and even family
> tradition.
>
> TMO

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> Hi Arri:
>
> Bernardino de Sahagún was a Franciscan, who came from Spain to Mexico in 1529.
> He learned Nahuatl, and under his direction, Aztec priests compiled materials
> in their native language.

Yes I know that.

By today's standards, these comments are just notes.
> Needless to say, his manuscript was not published for centuries after his
> death, so editors didn't have the opportunity to help him make his meanings
> clear. Alas, we have little idea what many of the things he noted in his
> manuscript mean.

That's normal I think.

>
> Below is anothor of his comments re tamales. Both quotes are from the book
> dealing with "what kings and lords ate." The translators, Arthur Anderson and
> Charles E. Dibble, do have a few notes on some items noted in the text, so you
> might want to look at Book VIII.

Might just do that.

>
> "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries added;
> tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales made
> with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth seed
> dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize; squash
> cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili; green
> amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."
>
> Andy Smith
> >
> >Does he go on to explain what 'hard white tamales' are?
> >The tamales made of maize softened in lime or wood ashes correspond to
> >modern tamales; are the others similar to what is cooked now?
> >
> >But they all sound fantastic! *sigh* Didn't take the time to make
> >tamales this past Christmas/New Year.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >

Opinicus wrote:
>
> "ASmith1946" > wrote
>
> > "Tamales made of maize flowers with ground amaranth seed and cherries
> added;
> > tortillas of green maize or of tender maize; tamales stuffed with amaranth
> > greens; tortillas made with honey, or with tuna cactus fruit; tamales
> made
> > with honey; tortillas shaped like hip guards; tamales made of amaranth
> seed
> > dough; [cakes made of] amaranth seed dough; rabbit with toasted maize;
> squash
> > cut in pieces; olchicalli; green maize cooked in a pot and dried; amaranth
> > greens cooked with dry land chili; sauce of purslane with dry land chili;
> green
> > amaranth seeds with dry land chili..."
>
> Drool. Are things like this still being made, I wonder?
>
> --
> Bob
>

Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
fillings, sweet and savoury.

Amaranth seeds can be bought in any wholefood shop and sometimes the
greens are available as well. Seem to recall that amaranth is still
widely used in parts of South America; not certain about Mexico.

I eat the purslane that is a weed in our garden (all organic); a fitting
revenge!
Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
it.

Haven't seen maize flowers for sale, but squash blossoms certainly can
be had locally.

Toasted or dried maize can be had as chicos or atole or nixtamal.

While I haven't had tortillas made with honey, sopaipillas (a type of
fried bread) are commonly served with honey.

Squash certainly is widely used locally, in a variety of forms.

Not certain what 'dry land chili' is in that context; chiles are a dry
land crop anyway around here.

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
> Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
> fillings, sweet and savoury.

Meat tamales in California traditionally have olives in them. The variations
are a somewhat new thing around here. One wonderful tamale that has been the
introduction of cheese and green chile tamales! Marvelous! I don't know
where they were imported from but the use of Monterey Jack cheese seems to
indicate that they have been integrated if not home developed. Sweet tamales
are now much easier to find here - which is a good thing!

> Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
> it.

I remember gathering these as a child (a long time ago) here in Sandy Eggo.
We generally ate them as a fresh fruit. Later in life, I often gathered them
at my workplace where they grew in abundance. Those of us who gathered them
usually ate them "out of hand" - with caution! ;-) It isn't too far to
travel from N.M. to Sandy Eggo. Please consider joining us on June 12th! I'd
love to meet you in person!

Cheerio,
Charlie

"Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
news:4SSjc.38670$YP5.2952479@attbi_s02...
> Cornmeal

Just picking a nit, but cornmeal is a specific thing. Was that what you
mean? It is my understanding is that "treated" corn was used throughout
North America (including parts of Central/Middle America).

Charlie

> cooked in leaves or cornhusks was in use throughout the Americas by
> the time of European contact, which means the method has to be thousands
of
> years old just to account for the diffusion.
>
> Leafbreads were noted by John Smith in Virginia, by early visitors to the
> Iroquois, and by the Spanish expeditions before them.
>
>
> --
> -Mark H. Zanger
> author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
> Students
> www.ethnicook.com
> www.historycook.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Mr_Bill" > wrote in message
> ...
> > The web has a couple of stories about the begining of tamales.
> > Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
> > Mexico/Latina and South America?
>
>

Charles Gifford wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Certainly around here (NM) homemade tamales come with all sorts of
> > fillings, sweet and savoury.
>
> Meat tamales in California traditionally have olives in them. The variations
> are a somewhat new thing around here. One wonderful tamale that has been the
> introduction of cheese and green chile tamales! Marvelous! I don't know
> where they were imported from but the use of Monterey Jack cheese seems to
> indicate that they have been integrated if not home developed. Sweet tamales
> are now much easier to find here - which is a good thing!
>
> > Cactus fruit (tuna) is available in local shops and products made from
> > it.
>
> I remember gathering these as a child (a long time ago) here in Sandy Eggo.
> We generally ate them as a fresh fruit. Later in life, I often gathered them
> at my workplace where they grew in abundance. Those of us who gathered them
> usually ate them "out of hand" - with caution! ;-) It isn't too far to
> travel from N.M. to Sandy Eggo. Please consider joining us on June 12th! I'd
> love to meet you in person!
>
> Cheerio,
> Charlie

TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London. Nothing
more in the books until next year. June is also my busy season for my
gardening business.

But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along the
rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all built up
now no doubt, right to the very edge.

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London. Nothing
> more in the books until next year. June is also my busy season for my
> gardening business.

Perhaps next year.

> But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along the
> rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all built up
> now no doubt, right to the very edge.

Yep. No only to the very edge but over it in some areas. <sigh>

Charlie

There are lots and lots of tamales. The ones in eastern North America were
(and are) often made with green corn grated directly off the ears.
Nixtamalized corn is favored in contemporary Mexico, but plain cornmeal was
the basis of American street "hot tamales." They still make green corn
tamales in Mexico and Peru, however, also.

Leafbreads are pretty universal. There are leafbreads in Africa and Asia,
and were in Europe.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"Charles Gifford" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
> news:4SSjc.38670$YP5.2952479@attbi_s02...
> > Cornmeal
>
> Just picking a nit, but cornmeal is a specific thing. Was that what you
> mean? It is my understanding is that "treated" corn was used throughout
> North America (including parts of Central/Middle America).
>
> Charlie
>
> > cooked in leaves or cornhusks was in use throughout the Americas by
> > the time of European contact, which means the method has to be thousands
> of
> > years old just to account for the diffusion.
> >
> > Leafbreads were noted by John Smith in Virginia, by early visitors to
the
> > Iroquois, and by the Spanish expeditions before them.
> >
> >
> > --
> > -Mark H. Zanger
> > author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
> > Students
> > www.ethnicook.com
> > www.historycook.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > "Mr_Bill" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > The web has a couple of stories about the begining of tamales.
> > > Is there any eviden ce tamales were used by the ancient indians of
> > > Mexico/Latina and South America?
> >
> >
>
>

In article <NBtkc.3539$kh4.222909@attbi_s52>,
Mark Zanger > wrote:
>Nixtamalized corn is favored in contemporary Mexico,

What is "nixtamalized corn"? I cannot find the verb "to nixtamalize" in
any English dictionary, including the <OED>.


--
Regards, Frank Young
703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"

"The Bibliographer" > wrote in message
...


> What is "nixtamalized corn"? I cannot find the verb "to nixtamalize" in
> any English dictionary, including the <OED>.

Google is your friend:
http://tinyurl.com/328dr

Apparently it means "softened" somehow or other.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

>
>What is "nixtamalized corn"? I cannot find the verb "to nixtamalize" in
>any English dictionary, including the <OED>.

Nixtamilization is the process of breaking down maize's pericarp (hard outer
covering) by soaking the kernels in water with lime (traditionally wood ash).
This makes a dough (masa) more easily converted into tortillas and adds a
particular flavor. In addition, the lime also releases the niacin in the corn,
thus creating a more nutritious food (and preventing pellagra caused by niacin
deficiency).

Therefore, nixtamilized corn is corn that ha gone through this process.

Andy Smith

PS I've already recommended that the word be added to the OED.

In article >,
ASmith1946 > wrote:
>Therefore, nixtamilized corn is corn that ha gone through this process.

Thank you. GOOGLE searches do not lead to this useful information.


--
Regards, Frank Young
703-527-7684
Post Office Box 2793, Kensington, Maryland 20891
"Videmus nunc per speculum in aenigmate... Nunc cognosco ex parte"

The Bibliographer > wrote:
> ASmith1946 > wrote:
>>Therefore, nixtamilized corn is corn that ha gone through this process.
> Thank you. GOOGLE searches do not lead to this useful information.

It doesn't?

Try searching "nixtamalized corn"

Link number 5 has some really good info.


sam

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London. Nothing
> more in the books until next year. June is also my busy season for my
> gardening business.
>
> But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along the
> rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all built up
> now no doubt, right to the very edge.

This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come from?

Janet

"Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
news:NBtkc.3539$kh4.222909@attbi_s52...
> There are lots and lots of tamales. The ones in eastern North America were
> (and are) often made with green corn grated directly off the ears.
> Nixtamalized corn is favored in contemporary Mexico, but plain cornmeal
was
> the basis of American street "hot tamales." They still make green corn
> tamales in Mexico and Peru, however, also.

Treated corn was also used extensively by indigenous North Americans outside
contemporary Mexico I believe. Also in Central America. I know of the green
corn tamales, but, while I am no expert, I have heard that cornmeal tamales
is a Texas kind of thing.

Charlie

Where ther ancient archeological digs that proved how old tamales
were. I have a book that show maize (corn ) was found that was
thousands of years old but is there any evidence of tamales before the
1500s? thank you all for all your help

JE Anderson wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London. Nothing
> > more in the books until next year. June is also my busy season for my
> > gardening business.
> >
> > But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along the
> > rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all built up
> > now no doubt, right to the very edge.
>
> This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
> Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come from?
>
> Janet

Tuna is just the Spanish name for the cactus fruit from the prickly pear
plant. Couldn't tell you the etymology of it.

Charles Gifford extrapolated from data available...

>
> "Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
> news:NBtkc.3539$kh4.222909@attbi_s52...
>> There are lots and lots of tamales. The ones in eastern North America
>> were (and are) often made with green corn grated directly off the
>> ears. Nixtamalized corn is favored in contemporary Mexico, but plain
>> cornmeal
> was
>> the basis of American street "hot tamales." They still make green
>> corn tamales in Mexico and Peru, however, also.
>
> Treated corn was also used extensively by indigenous North Americans
> outside contemporary Mexico I believe. Also in Central America. I know
> of the green corn tamales, but, while I am no expert, I have heard
> that cornmeal tamales is a Texas kind of thing.
>
.....More of a Mississippi sort of thing, as tamales in Texas are almost
always from masa and wrapped in cornshucks, pork filled in the majority,
sharing the traditions of Northern Mexico.

TMO

Arri London extrapolated from data available...

>
>
> JE Anderson wrote:
>>
>> "Arri London" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >
>> > TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London.
>> > Nothing more in the books until next year. June is also my busy
>> > season for my gardening business.
>> >
>> > But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along
>> > the rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all
>> > built up now no doubt, right to the very edge.
>>
>> This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
>> Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come
>> from?
>>
>> Janet
>
> Tuna is just the Spanish name for the cactus fruit from the prickly
> pear plant. Couldn't tell you the etymology of it.

In the Mexican culinary cuboard, the cactus pad, nopal (or noplitos,
little strips thereof) are certainly as popular as the tuna (once you get
past the spines). Vaguely "green-beanish" in flavor, available cnnned (in
jars) but much better fresh, they make a fine vegetable and useful salad
stretcher.

TMO

Olivers wrote:

> Arri London extrapolated from data available...
>
>
>>
>>JE Anderson wrote:
>>
>>>"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London.
>>>>Nothing more in the books until next year. June is also my busy
>>>>season for my gardening business.
>>>>
>>>>But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along
>>>>the rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all
>>>>built up now no doubt, right to the very edge.
>>>
>>>This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
>>>Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come
>>>from?
>>>
>>>Janet
>>
>>Tuna is just the Spanish name for the cactus fruit from the prickly
>>pear plant. Couldn't tell you the etymology of it.
>
>
> In the Mexican culinary cuboard, the cactus pad, nopal (or nopalitos,
> little strips thereof) are certainly as popular as the tuna (once you get
> past the spines). Vaguely "green-beanish" in flavor, available cnnned (in
> jars) but much better fresh, they make a fine vegetable and useful salad
> stretcher.

But nopales share that one unfortunate characteristic of okra. I like
to decide when I'm going to swallow my food. I don't like it when the
food is slippery enough to decide for itself.

I know the fruit as cactus pear or prickly pear. Had my wife and
daughter both taste for the first time a while back. Both equally not
thrilled. I sorta like them

Pastorio

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> JE Anderson wrote:
> >
<snip>

> > This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
> > Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come
from?
> >
> > Janet
>
> Tuna is just the Spanish name for the cactus fruit from the prickly pear
> plant. Couldn't tell you the etymology of it.

Ah,, thank you Arri. I was thinking tuna, as in the fish and was wondering
how that nickname had happened <grin>. Talk about thinking
one-dimensionally!

Thanks.,
Janet

"Bob (this one)" > wrote in message
...
> Olivers wrote:
>
> > Arri London extrapolated from data available...
> >
> >
> >>
> >>JE Anderson wrote:

<snippage>
> > In the Mexican culinary cuboard, the cactus pad, nopal (or nopalitos,
> > little strips thereof) are certainly as popular as the tuna (once you
get
> > past the spines). Vaguely "green-beanish" in flavor, available cnnned
(in
> > jars) but much better fresh, they make a fine vegetable and useful salad
> > stretcher.
>
> But nopales share that one unfortunate characteristic of okra. I like
> to decide when I'm going to swallow my food. I don't like it when the
> food is slippery enough to decide for itself.
>
> I know the fruit as cactus pear or prickly pear. Had my wife and
> daughter both taste for the first time a while back. Both equally not
> thrilled. I sorta like them
>
> Pastorio

Thanks to you both for the information - I love this newsgroup as I learn
something from it every week.

Janet

Olivers wrote:
>
> Arri London extrapolated from data available...
>
> >
> >
> > JE Anderson wrote:
> >>
> >> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > TY for the invite, but my travel budget was spent on/in London.
> >> > Nothing more in the books until next year. June is also my busy
> >> > season for my gardening business.
> >> >
> >> > But yes when I lived in San Diego I used to pick tuna fruit along
> >> > the rim of the canyon (overlooking Mission Valley). Probably all
> >> > built up now no doubt, right to the very edge.
> >>
> >> This is a totally foreign cuisine for me as a "raised on white-bread"
> >> Canadian so I have to ask - where does the nickname tuna-fruit come
> >> from?
> >>
> >> Janet
> >
> > Tuna is just the Spanish name for the cactus fruit from the prickly
> > pear plant. Couldn't tell you the etymology of it.
>
> In the Mexican culinary cuboard, the cactus pad, nopal (or noplitos,
> little strips thereof) are certainly as popular as the tuna (once you get
> past the spines). Vaguely "green-beanish" in flavor, available cnnned (in
> jars) but much better fresh, they make a fine vegetable and useful salad
> stretcher.
>
> TMO

That's true, but cactus fruit juice and sweets have passed into
mainstream Southwestern cooking, while nopales/nopalitos don't seem to
have made that same transition.
The canned and jarred versions are in every supermarket around here
though.

>
>Ah,, thank you Arri. I was thinking tuna, as in the fish and was wondering
>how that nickname had happened <grin>.

This raises several interesting issues The first is linguistic. The
Spanish/Mexican word "tuna" clearly meant the fruit of the cactus. The word
"atun" clearly meant the fish. The English word for tuna was "tunny," a word
that was used in the US until about 1900. How "tuna" came to mean the fish is a
mystery. It was likely a Californization of the Spanish/Mexican word. The fist
usage I can find dates to 1881. Then this spelling just replaced "tunny" within
a decade or so in the US. I understand that "tuna" is regularly used in the UK
as well now? If so, I assume it's due to the sale of canned tuna.

This raises a larger issue. Why didn't the English and the Americans eat much
tuna prior to about 1907? Prior to this date, I can't find many recipes in
English-language cookbooks (there are some in French/Spanish cookbooks
published in the UK and US, but very few in British or American cookbooks). Any
earlier recipes from Australia or New Zealand by chance?

A couple tuna species are huge (some weighed it about 1000-15000 pounds) and
they are plentiful in the North Atlantic and the Pacific. Tuna isn't that
difficult to catch and it is a very mild-tasting fish, particularly the white
meat. Tuna has been part of Mediterranean cuisine since ancient Greek/Roman
times, and there are many French/Spanish/Italian/Arab recipes for tuna. Why not
the English-speaking world until the 20th century?

Andy Smith

Off the top of my head, where all the foolish notions are stored, I would
start with the fish of commerce in England which were local for local
consumption, such as Dover sole and plaice (our summer flounder) and little
white bait, and such, and then those that were salted or dried for commerce,
such as cod. The tuna is a lot of fish, but isn't a fish that could be
preserved well until canning (and then it turns out to can exceptionally
well, especially in oil). This would also have been true in New England,
where runs of striped bass and bluefish provided fresh fish near shore, and
cod and halibut provided big hauls that could be salted down offshore. What
could be done with a deep-water bluefin tuna off New England in the 1840s?
If you knew how to bleed it correctly (an important point for the Japanese
buyers of these fish here in recent years), you could race it into Boston,
but why would it sell at a premium against other summer fish?

Generally, I think the Pacific market in the 19th century was also dependent
on salting, as with salt salmon from Alaska becoming so popular in Hawaii.

Now, if there is a whole salt tuna thing I'm unaware of, I'll look deeper in
my brain.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Ah,, thank you Arri. I was thinking tuna, as in the fish and was
wondering
> >how that nickname had happened <grin>.
>
> This raises several interesting issues The first is linguistic. The
> Spanish/Mexican word "tuna" clearly meant the fruit of the cactus. The
word
> "atun" clearly meant the fish. The English word for tuna was "tunny," a
word
> that was used in the US until about 1900. How "tuna" came to mean the fish
is a
> mystery. It was likely a Californization of the Spanish/Mexican word. The
fist
> usage I can find dates to 1881. Then this spelling just replaced "tunny"
within
> a decade or so in the US. I understand that "tuna" is regularly used in
the UK
> as well now? If so, I assume it's due to the sale of canned tuna.
>
> This raises a larger issue. Why didn't the English and the Americans eat
much
> tuna prior to about 1907? Prior to this date, I can't find many recipes in
> English-language cookbooks (there are some in French/Spanish cookbooks
> published in the UK and US, but very few in British or American
cookbooks). Any
> earlier recipes from Australia or New Zealand by chance?
>
> A couple tuna species are huge (some weighed it about 1000-15000 pounds)
and
> they are plentiful in the North Atlantic and the Pacific. Tuna isn't that
> difficult to catch and it is a very mild-tasting fish, particularly the
white
> meat. Tuna has been part of Mediterranean cuisine since ancient
Greek/Roman
> times, and there are many French/Spanish/Italian/Arab recipes for tuna.
Why not
> the English-speaking world until the 20th century?
>
> Andy Smith

"ASmith1946" > wrote

> meat. Tuna has been part of Mediterranean cuisine since
ancient Greek/Roman
> times, and there are many French/Spanish/Italian/Arab
recipes for tuna. Why not
> the English-speaking world until the 20th century?

Perhaps, as Mark says, we had better fish to fry (or bake or
broil or...)

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

>The tuna is a lot of fish, but isn't a fish that could be
>preserved well until canning (and then it turns out to can exceptionally
>well, especially in oil). This would also have been true in New England,
>where runs of striped bass and bluefish provided fresh fish near shore, and
>cod and halibut provided big hauls that could be salted down offshore. What
>could be done with a deep-water bluefin tuna off New England in the 1840s?

Of course, tuna comes in all sizes-- and the larger fish were occasionally
caught and were converted into oil, like whales. Occasionally, large tuna ran
aground in New Engalnd and they were consumed with gusto by whole villages that
ran to the location and "butchered" the fish. De Voe (The MArket Assistant,
1867) reports that fresh tuna was sold in markets from Philadelphia to Boston.
Canned French tuna was imported into the US by the 1880s.

Andy Smith

>
>Perhaps, as Mark says, we had better fish to fry (or bake or
>broil or...)

That could be. The only reason why California canners started on tuna in 1907
was simply because they had fished out most of the salmon. But tuna didn't take
off until the advertising promotion that called it "the chicken of the sea."
Then the depression hit and tuna cost less than other fish, so it became highly
popular.

Andy Smith

It may also have been due to confusion with mackerel. Perhaps they were
catching tuna but considered them mackerel? One early name for tuna in the US
was "Spanish mackerel." And some early recipes for tuna said cook it like a
mackerel.

Andy Smith

"Olivers" > wrote in message
...
> Charles Gifford extrapolated from data available...
>
> but, while I am no expert, I have heard
> > that cornmeal tamales is a Texas kind of thing.
> >
> ....More of a Mississippi sort of thing, as tamales in Texas are almost
> always from masa and wrapped in cornshucks, pork filled in the majority,
> sharing the traditions of Northern Mexico.
>
> TMO

I see. Thank you for the correction.

Charlie

ASmith1946 extrapolated from data available...

> It may also have been due to confusion with mackerel. Perhaps they
> were catching tuna but considered them mackerel? One early name for
> tuna in the US was "Spanish mackerel." And some early recipes for tuna
> said cook it like a mackerel.
>
I suspect that tuna awaited the arrival of canning and refrigeration to
become popular in markets where it was other than an inshore 'fresh" fish.
For small boat netters, a school of tuna was as damaging to equipment and
as impossible to handle as a pod of whales. Even in the 50s, when big tuna
remained plentiful, some harvesters still harpooned as well as long lined.

As for salting, all but the smallest tuna have to be bled, sliced, laborous
and time consuming, to be salted, and "salt tuna" was never well known.
Cousin mackerel (and "Spanish Mackerel" to me is a small mackerel, with
the big ones, harder to prepare and not well regarded for eating, are "King
mackerel" or "Kingfish") are small enough to split and salt.

Cod, almost without oil, was the blessed fish, large enough to feed many,
yet easy to preserve.

TMO

"ASmith1946" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >Ah,, thank you Arri. I was thinking tuna, as in the fish and was
wondering
> >how that nickname had happened <grin>.
>
> This raises several interesting issues The first is linguistic. The
> Spanish/Mexican word "tuna" clearly meant the fruit of the cactus. The
word
> "atun" clearly meant the fish. The English word for tuna was "tunny," a
word
> that was used in the US until about 1900. How "tuna" came to mean the fish
is a
> mystery. It was likely a Californization of the Spanish/Mexican word. The
fist
> usage I can find dates to 1881. Then this spelling just replaced "tunny"
within
> a decade or so in the US. I understand that "tuna" is regularly used in
the UK
> as well now? If so, I assume it's due to the sale of canned tuna.

I have no linguistic background but I find it interesting that many people I
know refer to it as tunafish, never just tuna. It is tuna if you order it
rare at a fancy restaurant and tunafish if it is in a salad or snadwich
<grin>. Kind of like the pig/pork split that I believe dates back to the
Norman/Saxon days. (hope that's not an urban myth as I learned it in
Unversity eons ago).

Janet