Dennis Montey wrote:

> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region or are they
> johnny-come-latelies which have been incorporated as has occurred in
> Italian cuisine? When and how were they introduced?
>
Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in Mexico
around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are described in Italian
herbals just a few years later. If you mean that tomatoes were not in
Italy in the year 1000 A.D or weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are
quite right. Cortes and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world
and they made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
a tomato plant.

Cookie

"Cookie Cutter" > wrote

> quite right. Cortes and Columbus also brought peppers to
the new world
> and they made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the
same crate with

Whereby a huge amount of confusion was caused by the use of
the word "pepper", the black peppercorn variety of which was
known in the West in Roman times.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to Italy.
My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after they had an
established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or tomato sauces with
the popular dishes of Italy. The same is true of India. Indian cuisine
brings to mind thick, spicy tomato based currie sauces with a great deal
of heat. In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of
exotic and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed our
eating habits Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is
the result of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple ingredients
in these two cultures. Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?

Cookie Cutter wrote:

> Dennis Montey wrote:
>
>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region or are
>> they johnny-come-latelies which have been incorporated as has
>> occurred in Italian cuisine? When and how were they introduced?
>>
> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in Mexico
> around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are described in Italian
> herbals just a few years later. If you mean that tomatoes were not in
> Italy in the year 1000 A.D or weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are
> quite right. Cortes and Columbus also brought peppers to the new
> world and they made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same
> crate with a tomato plant.
>
> Cookie

The tomato was an integral part of the cuisine of the southern colonies
and later the American South.

The growing season for tomatoes is exceedingly short in New England,
and, coupled with the fact that there was great prejudice against the
tomato in England, little opportunity existed for the tomato to have
much impact in the north.

The tomato started moving into northern cookery in the later part of the
19th century, probably shipped in from warmer areas.

Cookie

Dennis Montey wrote:
> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to Italy.
> My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after they had an
> established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or tomato sauces with
> the popular dishes of Italy. The same is true of India. Indian cuisine
> brings to mind thick, spicy tomato based currie sauces with a great deal
> of heat. In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of
> exotic and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed our
> eating habits Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is
> the result of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple ingredients
> in these two cultures. Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
>
> Cookie Cutter wrote:
>
>> Dennis Montey wrote:
>>
>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region or are
>>> they johnny-come-latelies which have been incorporated as has
>>> occurred in Italian cuisine? When and how were they introduced?
>>>
>> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in Mexico
>> around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are described in Italian
>> herbals just a few years later. If you mean that tomatoes were not in
>> Italy in the year 1000 A.D or weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are
>> quite right. Cortes and Columbus also brought peppers to the new
>> world and they made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same
>> crate with a tomato plant.
>>
>> Cookie
>
>

>
>The tomato started moving into northern cookery in the later part of the
>19th century, probably shipped in from warmer areas.

This is a myth. The tomato was grown in New England before 1800, and was
identified as the "queen" of vegetables by the 1830s.

Andy Smith

One very interesting fact about the tomato is its recent adoption into Chinese
cuisine, something quite unexpected for those of us who eat tomato-less Chinese
food outside of China. The Chinese have known about the tomato for centuries
(they call it the "foreign eggplant") and it never really became important.

However, for the past few years, the PRC has been the largest producer of
tomatoes in the world (surpassing the US which has been the largest producer
for years). Evidently, tomatoes are mainly eaten fresh like an apple-- just
bite into them and add a little salt. Actually, this is a good way to eat
tomatoes, provided...

Andy Smith

ASmith1946 > wrote:

> The Chinese have known about the tomato for centuries
> (they call it the "foreign eggplant") and it never really became important.

are you sure about the rendering? To my knowledge, xirongshi means:
"western red persimmon"

> However, for the past few years, the PRC has been the largest producer of
> tomatoes in the world (surpassing the US which has been the largest producer
> for years). Evidently, tomatoes are mainly eaten fresh like an apple-- just
> bite into them and add a little salt. Actually, this is a good way to eat
> tomatoes, provided...
>
In the PRC they are also industrially processed and exported, often in
bulk, and canned in third part countries

--
lilian

Could you give me where to find this information? I am very interested
in this subject.

Cookie

ASmith1946 wrote:

>>The tomato started moving into northern cookery in the later part of the
>>19th century, probably shipped in from warmer areas.
>
>
> This is a myth. The tomato was grown in New England before 1800, and was
> identified as the "queen" of vegetables by the 1830s.
>
> Andy Smith

Cookie Cutter wrote:

> Could you give me where to find this information? I am very interested
> in this subject.
>
> Cookie
>
> ASmith1946 wrote:
>
>>> The tomato started moving into northern cookery in the later part of
>>> the 19th century, probably shipped in from warmer areas.
>>
>>
>>
>> This is a myth. The tomato was grown in New England before 1800, and was
>> identified as the "queen" of vegetables by the 1830s.
>>
>> Andy Smith

Sorry about typo -- Could you tell me where to find this info. I know
tomatoes were grown in flower gardens before 1800 and surely a few brave
souls ate them but I did not think they were a common item on the table.
In my research they only begin being actively bought from seed
catalogs around 1830 and it was not until after the Civil War that they
became what you might call universal on American tables.

I am very interested in any reference source you can point me to that
shows information to the contrary. I am currently trying to write an
article on this subject.

Cookie

> In my research they only begin being actively bought from seed
>catalogs around 1830 and it was not until after the Civil War that they
>became what you might call universal on American tables.

The earliest seed "catalogue" with tomatoes listed (that I've located is
Lithen, John. "Catalogue of Garden Seeds... Philadelphia. c1800. In this
broadside, "Love Apples" are listed under "Seeds and Plants of Herbs," not
under flowers.

The notion that tomatoes were not commonly-consumed until after the Civil War
is pure culinary fakelore promoted by people (such as James Beard) who didn't
bother to look at primary sources, such as pre-Civil War cookbooks, gardening
books, newspapers, etc. To date I've located over 15,000 references to
tomatoes published or written in the US prior to the Civil War. In fact, it is
likely that tomatoes were grown and consumed in what is today the US prior to
the arrival of the English colonists at Jamestown in 1607 (specifically in St.
Augustine, Florida, and later in Santa Fe, New Mexico), although I have not
located primary sources that support this contention. However, tomatoes were
clearly grown and consumed in the American Southern colonies by the mid-18
century, as I have documented.

>
>I am very interested in any reference source you can point me to that
>shows information to the contrary. I am currently trying to write an
>article on this subject.
>
>Cookie
>

If you need any pithy quotes, just let me know. I'm good at pith...

Andy Smith

>
>Could you give me where to find this information? I am very interested
>in this subject.
>
>Cookie

Cookie:

I was hoping you'd ask. Here's two great tomato history books:

Smith, Andrew F. The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture and Cookery.
Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 1994. A Mandarin version of this
work was published in July 2000 by Leviathan Publishing Company in Taibei,
Republic of China, and the University of Illinois Press issued a paperback
edition of this work in October 2001.

Smith, Andrew F. Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food. New
Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 2000.


Andy Smith

Thank you. I will get my library to get them inter-library loan.

Cookie


ASmith1946 wrote:

>>Could you give me where to find this information? I am very interested
>>in this subject.
>>
>>Cookie
>
>
> Cookie:
>
> I was hoping you'd ask. Here's two great tomato history books:
>
> Smith, Andrew F. The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture and Cookery.
> Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 1994. A Mandarin version of this
> work was published in July 2000 by Leviathan Publishing Company in Taibei,
> Republic of China, and the University of Illinois Press issued a paperback
> edition of this work in October 2001.
>
> Smith, Andrew F. Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food. New
> Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 2000.
>
>
> Andy Smith
>

I am a little late noticing ... but is Andy Smith the Andrew F Smith who
is the author of the two books below?

Cookie


ASmith1946 wrote:

>>Could you give me where to find this information? I am very interested
>>in this subject.
>>
>>Cookie
>
>
> Cookie:
>
> I was hoping you'd ask. Here's two great tomato history books:
>
> Smith, Andrew F. The Tomato in America: Early History, Culture and Cookery.
> Columbia: University of South Carolina Press, 1994. A Mandarin version of this
> work was published in July 2000 by Leviathan Publishing Company in Taibei,
> Republic of China, and the University of Illinois Press issued a paperback
> edition of this work in October 2001.
>
> Smith, Andrew F. Souper Tomatoes: The Story of America's Favorite Food. New
> Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 2000.
>
>
> Andy Smith
>

On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:27:29 GMT, Cookie Cutter wrote:

> The tomato was an integral part of the cuisine of the southern colonies
> and later the American South.
>
> The growing season for tomatoes is exceedingly short in New England,
> and, coupled with the fact that there was great prejudice against the
> tomato in England, little opportunity existed for the tomato to have
> much impact in the north.
>
> The tomato started moving into northern cookery in the later part of the
> 19th century, probably shipped in from warmer areas.
>
> Cookie
>

Tomato cultivation was well established in England by 1776 at least. In the
17th edition of The Gardeners Kalendar by Thomas Mawe published in that
year there are detailed instructions for their cultivation under the
kitchen garden section. Although I don't have access to the earlier
editions ATM I seem to remember reading about them in there as well.

--
Pete The Gardener
A room without books is like a body without a soul

Dennis Montey extrapolated from data available...


>>
>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region or are
>>> they johnny-come-latelies which have been incorporated as has
>>> occurred in Italian cuisine? When and how were they introduced?
>>>

I don't think of the tomato as integral to are very important in Indian
cooking, at least not those foods with which I'm familiar.

Certainly, it would be a late addition, likely not available or used in any
quantity until 1800 or so.

On the other hand, another late comer, the potato, has become almost
ubiquitous in several "styles" of Indian cooking.

The world changes...

The other day I bought for 99 cents (bargain hunting at the "Big Lots") a
large jar of tiny dill pickles, the "cocktail" size. At home, I read the
label...from India, where "pickles" are important. These were very good.

TMO

Dennis Montey wrote:
>
> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to Italy.
> My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after they had an
> established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or tomato sauces with
> the popular dishes of Italy. The same is true of India. Indian cuisine
> brings to mind thick, spicy tomato based currie sauces with a great deal
> of heat.


While that may be true in the US, it isn't true in India or Pakistan.
Tomatoes are used, but aren't the least bit integral.

In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of
> exotic and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed our
> eating habits


Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either India or
Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in either place.

>Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is
> the result of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple ingredients
> in these two cultures.

Tomatoes aren't staple ingredients in either culture. Every time I've
been to Italy, I ate extremely well and with a huge amount of variety
without needing to have tomatoes except in salad.

Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of North
and South America.

Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?

Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
out.
While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many dishes without
chiles in them. Heat previously would have been supplied by pepper, and
still is.

It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been a
relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American cooking. The
people in the Southwest of course have been eating many varieties of
chiles for centuries.


> Cookie Cutter wrote:
>
> > Dennis Montey wrote:
> >
> >> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region or are
> >> they johnny-come-latelies which have been incorporated as has
> >> occurred in Italian cuisine? When and how were they introduced?
> >>
> > Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in Mexico
> > around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are described in Italian
> > herbals just a few years later. If you mean that tomatoes were not in
> > Italy in the year 1000 A.D or weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are
> > quite right. Cortes and Columbus also brought peppers to the new
> > world and they made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same
> > crate with a tomato plant.
> >
> > Cookie

Arri London wrote:

>
> Dennis Montey wrote:
>
>> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to
>> Italy. My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after
>> they had an established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or
>> tomato sauces with the popular dishes of Italy. The same is
>> true of India. Indian cuisine brings to mind thick, spicy tomato
>> based currie sauces with a great deal of heat.
>
> While that may be true in the US, it isn't true in India or
> Pakistan. Tomatoes are used, but aren't the least bit integral.
>
>> In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of exotic
>> and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
>> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed
>> our eating habits
>
> Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
> India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
> either place.

I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
habits in Italy is hard to fathom.

>> Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is the result
>> of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
>> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple
>> ingredients in these two cultures.
>
> Tomatoes aren't staple ingredients in either culture. Every time
> I've been to Italy, I ate extremely well and with a huge amount of
> variety without needing to have tomatoes except in salad.

Needing? One person's experience details national dietary habits? It
sounds like you don't like tomatoes and would therefore be avoiding
them. Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

> Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
> North and South America.

I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
call chiles.

>> Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
>> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
>
>
> Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
> find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
> dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
> supplied by pepper, and still is.

"Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
and are very widely used.

> It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
> habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
> a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
> cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
> many varieties of chiles for centuries.

Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
and national enclaves that used them.

Pastorio


>> Cookie Cutter wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dennis Montey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
>>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
>>>> incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
>>>> how were they introduced?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
>>> Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
>>> described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
>>> mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
>>> weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
>>> and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
>>> made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
>>> a tomato plant.
>>>
>>> Cookie

In article >, this one
> wrote:

> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
had them in salads.

Tomatoes are relatively common in the cuisine of Campania (where my
wife comes from) , but even there, there are far more, say, pasta
dishes commonly eaten without tomatoes than with.

I can't help someone is mixing up food called "Italian" in the uS with
food actually eaten in Italy. I'm glad to say that there's a
considerable difference between them.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

I think it is the variety of uses that make them integral. That doesn't
mean they have to be in everything. Corn is integral to Mexican food
but you could certainly avoid it if you needed to.

Cookie

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >, this one
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>
>
> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
> had them in salads.
>

>>
>>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
>> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
>> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
>> had them in salads.
>>
>

I agree with Cookie. First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer
agrees with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
various forms. Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look at
any southern Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to pizza, to
juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in southern Italian cookbooks
since the late 17th century).

I doubt if you will find any other fruit or vegetable that is used in such
quantities or in so many different ways as tomatoes, but if others have
contrary evidence, let's see it.

Andy Smith

"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
>
> >
> > Dennis Montey wrote:
> >
> >> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to
> >> Italy. My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after
> >> they had an established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or
> >> tomato sauces with the popular dishes of Italy. The same is
> >> true of India. Indian cuisine brings to mind thick, spicy tomato
> >> based currie sauces with a great deal of heat.
> >
> > While that may be true in the US, it isn't true in India or
> > Pakistan. Tomatoes are used, but aren't the least bit integral.
> >
> >> In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of exotic
> >> and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
> >> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed
> >> our eating habits
> >
> > Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
> > India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
> > either place.
>
> I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
> background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
> ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
> course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
> the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
> frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
> proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
> habits in Italy is hard to fathom.

You missed the word 'dramatically'. Every food introduction that is
adopted changes eating habits by definition, but tomatoes are not
'essential' to Southern Italian cooking in Italy.

> >> Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is the result
> >> of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
> >> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple
> >> ingredients in these two cultures.
> >
> > Tomatoes aren't staple ingredients in either culture. Every time
> > I've been to Italy, I ate extremely well and with a huge amount of
> > variety without needing to have tomatoes except in salad.
>
> Needing? One person's experience details national dietary habits? It
> sounds like you don't like tomatoes and would therefore be avoiding
> them.

Not at all, but if an ingredient is essential in a cuisine by your
defintion, it should be hard to avoid in some way shape or form. I love
tomatoes but can eat a vast amount of different dishes in Italy without
encountering them.
And of course my 'one person's experience' is equally as valid as yours.
American Italian cooking is quite different.

Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

I never said they weren't common, just that they aren't essential.
That's hardly the same thing.

> > Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
> > North and South America.
>
> I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
> call chiles.
>
> >> Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
> >> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
> >
> >
> > Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
> > find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
> > dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
> > supplied by pepper, and still is.
>
> "Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
> Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
> yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
> virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
> heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
> and are very widely used.
>
> > It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
> > habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
> > a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
> > cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
> > many varieties of chiles for centuries.
>
> Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
> used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
> different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
> and national enclaves that used them.
>
> Pastorio

And you know how many people who call bell peppers chiles?
But we are talking about how common an item is; hot peppers were and
still aren't all that common across the US and still have a very long
way to go to 'dramatically' change the eating habits of Americans.




>
> >> Cookie Cutter wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Dennis Montey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
> >>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
> >>>> incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
> >>>> how were they introduced?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
> >>> Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
> >>> described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
> >>> mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
> >>> weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
> >>> and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
> >>> made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
> >>> a tomato plant.
> >>>
> >>> Cookie

Arri London wrote:
>
> "Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
>>Arri London wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
>>>India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
>>>either place.
>>
>>I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
>>background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
>>ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
>>course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
>>the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
>>frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
>>proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
>>habits in Italy is hard to fathom.
>
>
> You missed the word 'dramatically'.

Not at all. In fact, that was what I was using as my premise. The
cuisines of southern Italy and Sicily depend heavily on tomatoes. Of
course, it's entirely possible to eat there forever without eating a
single tomato, but that would be avoiding a significant part of what
the locals eat.

> Every food introduction that is
> adopted changes eating habits by definition, but tomatoes are not
> 'essential' to Southern Italian cooking in Italy.

Can't agree. Look at the books that come out of the region. Go to any
family meal. Read the menus.

> Not at all, but if an ingredient is essential in a cuisine by your
> defintion, it should be hard to avoid in some way shape or form. I love
> tomatoes but can eat a vast amount of different dishes in Italy without
> encountering them.

You can eat a vast number of dishes anywhere without encountering any
given ingredient. If you're in southern Italy and you're not eating
tomatoes, it's an exercise in avoidance rather than any sort of
sampling of the general fare.

> And of course my 'one person's experience' is equally as valid as yours.
> American Italian cooking is quite different.

I'm not basing it on just my experience. I've done rather extensive
research into the history and evolutions of the various Italian
cuisines. I've traveled with the eye of a food writer gathering
material. I've interviewed scores of knowledgeable people, both
professionals and general public.

> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>
> I never said they weren't common, just that they aren't essential.
> That's hardly the same thing.

It's splitting hairs. If it's common, it helps to define the cuisines.
If it's common, it's because many if not most of the people want it.
That's essential to the definition of the cuisine they're shaping.

>>>Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
>>> North and South America.
>>
>>I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
>>call chiles.
>>
>>>>>>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
>>>> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
>>>
>>>
>>>Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
>>>find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
>>>dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
>>>supplied by pepper, and still is.
>>
>>"Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
>>Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
>>yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
>>virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
>>heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
>>and are very widely used.
>>
>>>It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
>>>habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
>>>a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
>>>cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
>>>many varieties of chiles for centuries.
>>
>>Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
>>used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
>>different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
>>and national enclaves that used them.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> And you know how many people who call bell peppers chiles?
> But we are talking about how common an item is; hot peppers were and
> still aren't all that common across the US and still have a very long
> way to go to 'dramatically' change the eating habits of Americans.

Jeezus, Arri. Sweet chiles are still chiles. If hot peppers are what
you meant, say it. Lots of people call *all* peppers chiles.

Hot peppers are reasonably common fare in fast food shops, sandwich
operations and bars. Hell, we served them in both country clubs I ran.
How common is common?


>>>>Cookie Cutter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dennis Montey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
>>>>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
>>>>>>incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
>>>>>>how were they introduced?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
>>>>>Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
>>>>>described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
>>>>>mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
>>>>>weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
>>>>>and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
>>>>>made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
>>>>> a tomato plant.
>>>>>
>>>>>Cookie

quoting Arri London:
Dennis Montey wrote:
>>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
>> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by
>>peppers?
>
>Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
>out.

However, ketchup is quite popular in Mongolia - a squirt on top of a
meat-filled dumpling (buuz). I don't believe tomatoes are grown there, as
the ketchup I saw was imported & expensive. I did see some experimental
farms in the northern Gobi where they grew tomatoes, melons & cucumbers -
all sliced for eating raw. Good healthy food is hard to come by sometimes
& new additions are welcome. My own assumption as to why northern
Europeans adopted the tomato, bell peppers, etc, was because they were SO
TIRED of cabbage ;-) Of course I have nothing to support this opinion.

In article >, Jodie Kain >
wrote:

> northern
> Europeans adopted the tomato, bell peppers, etc, was because they were SO
> TIRED of cabbage ;-)

I'll never tire of cabbage - particularly with pork and a few juniper
berries..... ;-)

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Jodie Kain wrote:
>
> quoting Arri London:
> Dennis Montey wrote:
> >>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
> >> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by
> >>peppers?
> >
> >Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
> >out.
>
> However, ketchup is quite popular in Mongolia - a squirt on top of a
> meat-filled dumpling (buuz). I don't believe tomatoes are grown there, as
> the ketchup I saw was imported & expensive. I did see some experimental
> farms in the northern Gobi where they grew tomatoes, melons & cucumbers -
> all sliced for eating raw. Good healthy food is hard to come by sometimes
> & new additions are welcome.


The traditional Mongolian diet is perfectly healthy. Otherwise the
population would have died out centuries ago, n'est-ce pas?

My own assumption as to why northern
> Europeans adopted the tomato, bell peppers, etc, was because they were SO
> TIRED of cabbage ;-) Of course I have nothing to support this opinion.

LOL there is nothing to support that of course. Europeans have always
adopted new foods that suited them. That's one of the benefits of trade.
However not all Europeans have always adopted all foods with equal
enthusiasm.

quoting Arri London:
>>Jodie Kain wrote:
>>
>> quoting Arri London:
>> Dennis Montey wrote:
>> >>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
>> >> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by
>> >>peppers?
>> >
>> >Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
>> >out.
>>
>> However, ketchup is quite popular in Mongolia - a squirt on top of a
>> meat-filled dumpling (buuz). I don't believe tomatoes are grown there,
>as
>> the ketchup I saw was imported & expensive. I did see some experimental
>> farms in the northern Gobi where they grew tomatoes, melons & cucumbers
>-
>> all sliced for eating raw. Good healthy food is hard to come by
>sometimes
>> & new additions are welcome.
>
>
>The traditional Mongolian diet is perfectly healthy. Otherwise the
>population would have died out centuries ago, n'est-ce pas?

A bit of a simplification.
Perfectly healthy when the lifespan isn't that long. However, modern
Mongols are living almost as long as Western Europeans & are experiencing
diseases new to their culture, directly related to their diet. Like heart
disease, colo-rectal cancers due to constipation, kidney disease due
to meat protein,etc. So there's a new awareness of diet as it relates to
longevity. Everywhere we travelled people expressed their pride in their
mutton-based diet, however almost everyone also proudly demonstrated their
newfound interest in adding fruits & vegetables to every meal. This seemed
to be the same reason for the increased consumption of airag (fermented
mare's milk - very low alcohol but can make you very drunk) vs. vodka
which is seen (rightly) as bad for you & bad for society (although still
the most popular alcoholic beverage). ie, "I don't want to give up my
party lifestyle but I do want to live longer to continue partying" The
intellectual approach is quaint. And yes, the above is also a
simplification as my "proof" is anecdotal.
cheers,
Jodie

On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:01:33 +0000 (UTC), (Jodie
Kain) wrote:

> This seemed
>to be the same reason for the increased consumption of airag (fermented
>mare's milk - very low alcohol but can make you very drunk)

That must mean you are likely to drink vast quantities of it??

vs. vodka
>which is seen (rightly) as bad for you & bad for society (although still
>the most popular alcoholic beverage). ie, "I don't want to give up my

Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Ask not with whom the buck stops . . .

On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> wrote:

>I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to Italy.
>My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after they had an
>established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or tomato sauces with
>the popular dishes of Italy. The same is true of India. Indian cuisine
>brings to mind thick, spicy tomato based currie sauces with a great deal
>of heat. In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of
>exotic and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
>ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed our
>eating habits Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is
>the result of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
>introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple ingredients
>in these two cultures. Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
>other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?

It appears as if, as soon as people could cross oceans, they started
trading food and food plants. Where growiing a new food crop was
possible, it was adopted and the cuisine adapted. Remember that one of
the motivations for 15th century European exploration was a shorter(!)
route to spice-producing regions. The most dramatic influx of new food
items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
and chocolate originated in the New World.

Don't forget potatoes!

Cookie



Frogleg wrote:

> On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> > wrote:
>
The most dramatic influx of new food
> items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
> tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
> and chocolate originated in the New World.

In article >,
Cookie Cutter > wrote:

> Don't forget potatoes!
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
> Frogleg wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> > > wrote:
> >
> The most dramatic influx of new food
> > items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
> > tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
> > and chocolate originated in the New World.

And all the standard squash/pumpkin varieties.

--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com

>> The Chinese have known about the tomato for centuries
>> (they call it the "foreign eggplant") and it never really became important.
>
>are you sure about the rendering? To my knowledge, xirongshi means:
>"western red persimmon"

There are two Chinese words for "tomato." One is transliterated "xirongshi"
as you note. It tends to be used by northerners. The second and more common
word is transliterated as "fan qui," whose direct translation is "foreign
eggplant," although it is also sometimes translated as "western eggplant." It
tends to be used by southerners.

>
>> However, for the past few years, the PRC has been the largest producer of
>> tomatoes in the world (surpassing the US which has been the largest
>producer
>> for years). Evidently, tomatoes are mainly eaten fresh like an apple-- just
>> bite into them and add a little salt. Actually, this is a good way to eat
>> tomatoes, provided...
>>
>In the PRC they are also industrially processed and exported, often in
>bulk, and canned in third part countries
>
>--

I'd greatly appreciate the source for the above information. I looked for
Chinese export information through FAO, and did not locate much.

Andy Smith

>
>

ASmith1946 > wrote:

> There are two Chinese words for "tomato." One is transliterated "xirongshi"
> as you note. It tends to be used by northerners.

Here I can only disagree: it's the most common term used in Mandarin

> The second and more common
> word is transliterated as "fan qui," whose direct translation is "foreign
> eggplant,"

fan qie, for the second, and I doubt it is the most common.
Now it is correct that qiezi means eggplant, but the translation you
suggest for fan (foreign?) sounds pretty strange to my ears.
My Chinese is quite rusty, but I would appreciate if you could explain
haw you got there

> although it is also sometimes translated as "western eggplant." It
> tends to be used by southerners.

western eggplant would become xiqie: never heard it, but it could be a
local usage
> >
> I'd greatly appreciate the source for the above information. I looked for
> Chinese export information through FAO, and did not locate much.
>
From personal experience (I spent several years working in China): be
sure a large European company tried to import bulk processed tomatoes
from there since 1986; if what you need is written information that you
can quote, I would not look into FAO records. Chinese Provincial
Authorities publish regularly import/export statistics: they are not
particularly prized for their accuracy, but still, better than nothing.
I am also aware of Italian newspapers (this must be a sub-italian
thread!) that reacted outreaged, a short while ago, learning that their
tomatoes could have came from the Far East. But that has happened,
surely, long before. If you need more details I would be glad to help
you privately: the address is valid

--
lilian