Arri London wrote:

>
> Dennis Montey wrote:
>
>> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to
>> Italy. My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after
>> they had an established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or
>> tomato sauces with the popular dishes of Italy. The same is
>> true of India. Indian cuisine brings to mind thick, spicy tomato
>> based currie sauces with a great deal of heat.
>
> While that may be true in the US, it isn't true in India or
> Pakistan. Tomatoes are used, but aren't the least bit integral.
>
>> In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of exotic
>> and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
>> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed
>> our eating habits
>
> Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
> India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
> either place.

I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
habits in Italy is hard to fathom.

>> Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is the result
>> of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
>> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple
>> ingredients in these two cultures.
>
> Tomatoes aren't staple ingredients in either culture. Every time
> I've been to Italy, I ate extremely well and with a huge amount of
> variety without needing to have tomatoes except in salad.

Needing? One person's experience details national dietary habits? It
sounds like you don't like tomatoes and would therefore be avoiding
them. Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

> Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
> North and South America.

I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
call chiles.

>> Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
>> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
>
>
> Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
> find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
> dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
> supplied by pepper, and still is.

"Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
and are very widely used.

> It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
> habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
> a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
> cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
> many varieties of chiles for centuries.

Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
and national enclaves that used them.

Pastorio


>> Cookie Cutter wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Dennis Montey wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
>>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
>>>> incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
>>>> how were they introduced?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
>>> Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
>>> described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
>>> mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
>>> weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
>>> and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
>>> made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
>>> a tomato plant.
>>>
>>> Cookie

In article >, this one
> wrote:

> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
had them in salads.

Tomatoes are relatively common in the cuisine of Campania (where my
wife comes from) , but even there, there are far more, say, pasta
dishes commonly eaten without tomatoes than with.

I can't help someone is mixing up food called "Italian" in the uS with
food actually eaten in Italy. I'm glad to say that there's a
considerable difference between them.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

I think it is the variety of uses that make them integral. That doesn't
mean they have to be in everything. Corn is integral to Mexican food
but you could certainly avoid it if you needed to.

Cookie

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >, this one
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>
>
> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
> had them in salads.
>

>>
>>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
>> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
>> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
>> had them in salads.
>>
>

I agree with Cookie. First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer
agrees with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
various forms. Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look at
any southern Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to pizza, to
juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in southern Italian cookbooks
since the late 17th century).

I doubt if you will find any other fruit or vegetable that is used in such
quantities or in so many different ways as tomatoes, but if others have
contrary evidence, let's see it.

Andy Smith

(ASmith1946) writes:

>Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
>While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
>in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them.

Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
public speakers?

Lee Rudolph

>
>Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
>there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
>public speakers?

Good point. If there is such a tradition it Italy, then this could account for
the large tomato production, as Italian politicians aren't very well respected
in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter).

Andy Smith

PS I've found very few primary source examples of thrown tomatoes (except in
tomato throwing events), and I've always wondered why.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
> >there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
> >public speakers?
>
> Good point. If there is such a tradition it Italy, then this could account for
> the large tomato production, as Italian politicians aren't very well respected
> in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter).
>
> Andy Smith
>
> PS I've found very few primary source examples of thrown tomatoes (except in
> tomato throwing events), and I've always wondered why.

LOL!

As far as I can remember from reading USDA reports from way back when,
something like half of Italy's tomato production is exported. There was
also some importation for re-exportation too.
Like the olive oil :0

In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:

> >>
> >>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> >>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> >>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
> >> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
> >> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
> >> had them in salads.
> >>
> >
>
> I agree with Cookie.

Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in Italy,
and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference between
that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in Italy.

> First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer
> agrees with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
> various forms.
> Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
> While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
> in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look
> at
> any southern Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
> tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to pizza, to
> juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in southern Italian cookbooks
> since the late 17th century).

Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And summer
isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now, everyone will be
eating asparagus. (this may be true all over Germany - I don't know).

As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern Italian
cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy that southern
Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true. I've spent a lot
of time working with the food in Basilicata, traditionally a poor area,
with a wonderful simple cuisine. But have a look at this site on the
food of this area - right down in the south

http://www.bancadati.it/basilicata/b-ricette.html

You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used just
like parsley, in quite small quantities.

And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be made
to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in Tuscany, and
there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..

Goose fat is very common in the South-West of France (and I'd imagine
that France is the leading producer and consumer of the stuff), but
that doesnt' make it "virtually omnipresent" in French cuisine.
Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far higher
proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy - but again,
that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.

So. Tomatoes are common in the cooking of the south of Italy yes, but
"virtually omnipresent", no.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article >, Lazarus
Cooke > wrote:

Sorry - that basilicata link has changed to

http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>
>As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern Italian
>cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy that southern
>Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true. I've spent a lot
>of time working with the food in Basilicata, traditionally a poor area,
>with a wonderful simple cuisine. But have a look at this site on the
>food of this area - right down in the south
>
>http://www.bancadati.it/basilicata/b-ricette.html
>
>You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
>ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
>remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used just
>like parsley, in quite small quantities.
>
>And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be made
>to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in Tuscany, and
>there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..
>
>

It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
First, there are empirical ones-- how many tomatoes do Italians eat? How does
this compare with others? I maintain that, pound for pound, Italians eat more
tomatoes than any other fruit or vegetable, including parsley or chillies. In
fact, parsely and chillies are not even close. In addition, Italians eat more
tomatoes on a per capita basis than do other Europeans.

Second, there are the culinary myths that you and others have raised-- not all
Italians eat gobs of tomatoes at every meal, and even in the south where tomato
consumption is highest, tomatoes are certainly not used in every dish. And
Italian-America food (based, incidently, largely on southern Italian
immigrants) is not the same as the food eaten in Italy today. These are indeed
myths, it seems to me.

Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have one? Or
alternately, do Italians have a national cuisine and tomatoes are just not a
component?

Andy Smith

In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:



> It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> discussion.


This is a useful teasing apart of strands. There's not much here I'd
disagree with, although I'm not (yet!) convinced that they eat more
tomatoes than any other fruit of vegetable. Be interesting to find out,
though. Wheat??? Remember it's used , in the form of grain wheat, as a
vegetable in Tuscan soups, and as a key ingredient in a neapolitan
easter cake flavoured with orange flower water.
> First, there are empirical ones-- how many tomatoes do Italians eat? How does
> this compare with others? I maintain that, pound for pound, Italians eat more
> tomatoes than any other fruit or vegetable,

> including parsley or chillies.
Of course these are only eaten in tiny quantities.

> In
> fact, parsely and chillies are not even close. In addition, Italians eat more
> tomatoes on a per capita basis than do other Europeans.

At a guess I'm sure this is true.
>
> Second, there are the culinary myths that you and others have raised-- not all
> Italians eat gobs of tomatoes at every meal, and even in the south where
> tomato
> consumption is highest, tomatoes are certainly not used in every dish. And
> Italian-America food (based, incidently, largely on southern Italian
> immigrants) is not the same as the food eaten in Italy today. These are indeed
> myths, it seems to me.
>
> Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have one?

I think they do - in the same way as the French do. It's a collection
of different regional cuisines, in the same way.
Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.

Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
that's "typically Italian."

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >,
> ASmith1946 > wrote:
>
>
>>>>> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad
>>>>> variants of tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes
>>>>> served fresh, are pickled, dried and/or salted, they're
>>>>> virtually omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair
>>>> amount of each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree
>>>> with Arri London on this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like
>>>> tomatoes. Indeed he said he had them in salads.
>>>>
>>>
>> I agree with Cookie.
>
>
> Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
> continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in
> Italy, and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference
> between that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in
> Italy.

I will concede that it was a bit overstated.

>> First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer agrees
>> with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
>> various forms. Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers
>> in the world. While many tomatoes are exported to other
>> countries, the vast majority remain in Italy for domestic use. I
>> tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look at any southern
>> Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
>> tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to
>> pizza, to juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in
>> southern Italian cookbooks since the late 17th century).
>
>
> Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And
> summer isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now,
> everyone will be eating asparagus. (this may be true all over
> Germany - I don't know).

And canned San Marzano (and others) are readily available. Tomato
paste in little squeeze tubes are everywhere available. Fresh
tomatoes, locally grown or not are available everywhere, all the time.

> As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern
> Italian cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy
> that southern Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true.

Not only has no one said that, it was specifically discussed in terms
of being common, not omnipresent in all the foods.

> I've spent a lot of time working with the food in Basilicata,
> traditionally a poor area, with a wonderful simple cuisine. But
> have a look at this site on the food of this area - right down in
> the south
>
> <http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html>

This site talks about "la cucina Lucana" to distinguish it from other
regional cuisines. And this is fine, but look at a broader picture
than one web site. The books of the Hazans, Ada Boni's books (for a
more historical picture of the regional cuisines in the last century),
Bugialli, Middione, Lorenza de'Medici...

Look at the books of Carol Field, Anna Tasca Lanza, Mark Strausman,
Patricia Wells, Susan Herrmann Loomis, Wanda and Giovanna Tornabene.
Look at the translation of Artusi by Kyle Phillips.

> You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
> ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
> remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used
> just like parsley, in quite small quantities.

Why does this concept of being integral to a cuisine seem to be being
described as "in everything" rather than as a very common component of
the cooking of a region? It's almost as though the argument is that
since it's not in every meal in every dish, it's not "significant" in
the cuisine. It's ubiquitous in the sense that it's a common,
familiar, oft-used ingredient available in some form virtually
everywhere foods are sold.

> And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be
> made to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in
> Tuscany, and there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..

There is no "Italian cuisine." There are Italian cuisines. An easy way
to define that notion is to look at preferred cooking fats. In the
south, it's olive oil; up north, it's butter. Polenta is virtually
unheard of in the south. Smoked ham in the north is foreign to
southern cuisines. Look at the pasta differences and preferences. Look
at the vast number of dishes with local names that have no real
parallel in other regions. Or the same dishes that have different
names every few miles.

Tuscany didn't much use tomatoes until after the second world war when
people came north to find work and brought their cuisines with them.

> Goose fat is very common in the South-West of France (and I'd
> imagine that France is the leading producer and consumer of the
> stuff), but that doesnt' make it "virtually omnipresent" in French
> cuisine.

There is no national cuisine in France. One can hardly talk about the
Alsace and Provence in the same breath. Burgundy and the Loire.

> Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far
> higher proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy -
> but again, that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.

Of course it does. If it's eaten at virtually every meal, it is
exactly a staple. Like bread. But lettuce doesn't define any French
cuisine because it's considered more as an interlude, a break from the
real food. The cooked food.

> So. Tomatoes are common in the cooking of the south of Italy yes,
> but "virtually omnipresent", no.

Make the distinction between any given ingredient being available in
markets and being in dishes. Just because it's not in this dish
doesn't mean that it isn't consequential in the regional cuisine as a
whole.

Italy was a lot of small states until a century and a half ago.
Dialects change over very short distances. Sicilians don't easily
converse with Romans and Romans don't easily converse with Alpine
Italians. Different accents, sure, but different vocabularies as well.
That carries over to everything about daily life. Things grow near
Naples that don't grow near Venice. And vice versa. Different cuisines
result. The cuisines of the north use a lot of corn and milk products.
The cuisines of the south use lots of tomatoes and olive oil.

Pastorio

> > Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
> > continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in
> > Italy, and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference
> > between that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in
> > Italy.
>
> I will concede that it was a bit overstated.

I don't really think we're disagreeing about much. That's really all I
was saying.

> > Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And
> > summer isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now,
> > everyone will be eating asparagus. (this may be true all over
> > Germany - I don't know).
>
> And canned San Marzano (and others) are readily available. Tomato
> paste in little squeeze tubes are everywhere available. Fresh
> tomatoes, locally grown or not are available everywhere, all the time.
You'll probably find the same with asparagus in Germany.


>
> > I've spent a lot of time working with the food in Basilicata,
> > traditionally a poor area, with a wonderful simple cuisine. But
> > have a look at this site on the food of this area - right down in
> > the south
> >
> > <http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html>
>
> This site talks about "la cucina Lucana" to distinguish it from other
> regional cuisines.
Sure. I agree. It's just one example which I like and use that's
available on the net.
> And this is fine, but look at a broader picture
> than one web site. The books of the Hazans, Ada Boni's books (for a
> more historical picture of the regional cuisines in the last century),
> Bugialli, Middione, Lorenza de'Medici...
>
> Look at the books of Carol Field, Anna Tasca Lanza, Mark Strausman,
> Patricia Wells, Susan Herrmann Loomis, Wanda and Giovanna Tornabene.
> Look at the translation of Artusi by Kyle Phillips.
I've been looking through some of these and others. They seem to
suggest that heavily tomatoe-based food sort of begins in Camapnia, and
gets heavier as you go down through Calabria towards Sicily - but
that's only a brief glance, and I certainly wouldn't stand over it.
>
> > You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
> > ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
> > remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used
> > just like parsley, in quite small quantities.
>
> Why does this concept of being integral to a cuisine seem to be being
> described as "in everything" rather than as a very common component of
> the cooking of a region?

> It's almost as though the argument is that
> since it's not in every meal in every dish, it's not "significant" in
> the cuisine.

I agree that it's a very significant element. But that's not what
"ubiquitous" means. It means precisely "everywhere" or "in everything.
>
> > And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be
> > made to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in
> > Tuscany, and there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..
>
> There is no "Italian cuisine." There are Italian cuisines.

I agree
>
> There is no national cuisine in France. One can hardly talk about the
> Alsace and Provence in the same breath. Burgundy and the Loire.

I think you can, just about, but again I don't really think we're
disagreeing here. You could argue that certain shared notions - such
as the order of of a standard meal - constitute a national cuisine. But
it's an arugment I'd be happy to argue on either side.
>
> > Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far
> > higher proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy -
> > but again, that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.
>
> Of course it does. If it's eaten at virtually every meal, it is
> exactly a staple. Like bread.
That's not how I understand a staple. For me bread is, lettuce isn't.
My dictionary's unsatisafactory on this.


(rest snipped because I agree with most of it!)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

"Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
> Arri London wrote:
>
> >
> > Dennis Montey wrote:
> >
> >> I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to
> >> Italy. My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after
> >> they had an established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or
> >> tomato sauces with the popular dishes of Italy. The same is
> >> true of India. Indian cuisine brings to mind thick, spicy tomato
> >> based currie sauces with a great deal of heat.
> >
> > While that may be true in the US, it isn't true in India or
> > Pakistan. Tomatoes are used, but aren't the least bit integral.
> >
> >> In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of exotic
> >> and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
> >> ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed
> >> our eating habits
> >
> > Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
> > India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
> > either place.
>
> I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
> background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
> ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
> course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
> the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
> frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
> proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
> habits in Italy is hard to fathom.

You missed the word 'dramatically'. Every food introduction that is
adopted changes eating habits by definition, but tomatoes are not
'essential' to Southern Italian cooking in Italy.

> >> Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is the result
> >> of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
> >> introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple
> >> ingredients in these two cultures.
> >
> > Tomatoes aren't staple ingredients in either culture. Every time
> > I've been to Italy, I ate extremely well and with a huge amount of
> > variety without needing to have tomatoes except in salad.
>
> Needing? One person's experience details national dietary habits? It
> sounds like you don't like tomatoes and would therefore be avoiding
> them.

Not at all, but if an ingredient is essential in a cuisine by your
defintion, it should be hard to avoid in some way shape or form. I love
tomatoes but can eat a vast amount of different dishes in Italy without
encountering them.
And of course my 'one person's experience' is equally as valid as yours.
American Italian cooking is quite different.

Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

I never said they weren't common, just that they aren't essential.
That's hardly the same thing.

> > Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
> > North and South America.
>
> I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
> call chiles.
>
> >> Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
> >> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
> >
> >
> > Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
> > find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
> > dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
> > supplied by pepper, and still is.
>
> "Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
> Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
> yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
> virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
> heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
> and are very widely used.
>
> > It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
> > habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
> > a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
> > cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
> > many varieties of chiles for centuries.
>
> Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
> used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
> different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
> and national enclaves that used them.
>
> Pastorio

And you know how many people who call bell peppers chiles?
But we are talking about how common an item is; hot peppers were and
still aren't all that common across the US and still have a very long
way to go to 'dramatically' change the eating habits of Americans.




>
> >> Cookie Cutter wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> Dennis Montey wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
> >>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
> >>>> incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
> >>>> how were they introduced?
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
> >>> Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
> >>> described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
> >>> mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
> >>> weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
> >>> and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
> >>> made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
> >>> a tomato plant.
> >>>
> >>> Cookie

Arri London wrote:
>
> "Bob (this one)" wrote:
>
>>Arri London wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Tomatoes didn't dramatically change the eating habits of either
>>>India or Italy. They don't appear in the majority of dishes in
>>>either place.
>>
>>I beg to differ with regard to both criteria and results. My family
>>background is Italian, both north and south, and I've been to the
>>ancestral places. Tomatoes don't appear in the majority of dishes, of
>>course. Nothing appears in the majority of dishes and majority isn't
>>the issue. Tomatoes are essential to the cuisines of the south and
>>frequent additions to the cooking of the north, diminishing with
>>proximity to the alps. But to say that tomatoes didn't change the
>>habits in Italy is hard to fathom.
>
>
> You missed the word 'dramatically'.

Not at all. In fact, that was what I was using as my premise. The
cuisines of southern Italy and Sicily depend heavily on tomatoes. Of
course, it's entirely possible to eat there forever without eating a
single tomato, but that would be avoiding a significant part of what
the locals eat.

> Every food introduction that is
> adopted changes eating habits by definition, but tomatoes are not
> 'essential' to Southern Italian cooking in Italy.

Can't agree. Look at the books that come out of the region. Go to any
family meal. Read the menus.

> Not at all, but if an ingredient is essential in a cuisine by your
> defintion, it should be hard to avoid in some way shape or form. I love
> tomatoes but can eat a vast amount of different dishes in Italy without
> encountering them.

You can eat a vast number of dishes anywhere without encountering any
given ingredient. If you're in southern Italy and you're not eating
tomatoes, it's an exercise in avoidance rather than any sort of
sampling of the general fare.

> And of course my 'one person's experience' is equally as valid as yours.
> American Italian cooking is quite different.

I'm not basing it on just my experience. I've done rather extensive
research into the history and evolutions of the various Italian
cuisines. I've traveled with the eye of a food writer gathering
material. I've interviewed scores of knowledgeable people, both
professionals and general public.

> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>
> I never said they weren't common, just that they aren't essential.
> That's hardly the same thing.

It's splitting hairs. If it's common, it helps to define the cuisines.
If it's common, it's because many if not most of the people want it.
That's essential to the definition of the cuisine they're shaping.

>>>Pepper was used in Italy and India long before the colonisation of
>>> North and South America.
>>
>>I think it's a labeling reference. Peppers are what North Americans
>>call chiles.
>>
>>>>>>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and other Asian cuisines
>>>> who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?
>>>
>>>
>>>Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can
>>>find out. While used in some Asian cuisines, there are just as many
>>>dishes without chiles in them. Heat previously would have been
>>>supplied by pepper, and still is.
>>
>>"Just as many without" isn't the question. How common is a question.
>>Who uses them and how are questions. Peppers are easy to grow and
>>yield a good amount of food per unit of ground. They're common in
>>virtually all important cuisines. Chiles aren't only used for their
>>heat as many varieties don't contain significant amounts of capsaicin
>>and are very widely used.
>>
>>>It isn't all that long ago that so many Americans hadn't heard of
>>>habaneros or cascabels or chipotles. So, in fact, chiles have been
>>>a relatively recent introduction into 'white bread' American
>>>cooking. The people in the Southwest of course have been eating
>>>many varieties of chiles for centuries.
>>
>>Bell peppers are still chiles and are among the top few vegetables
>>used across the entire US. Hot chiles as widespread food item are a
>>different matter, but there have always been individuals, and cultural
>>and national enclaves that used them.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> And you know how many people who call bell peppers chiles?
> But we are talking about how common an item is; hot peppers were and
> still aren't all that common across the US and still have a very long
> way to go to 'dramatically' change the eating habits of Americans.

Jeezus, Arri. Sweet chiles are still chiles. If hot peppers are what
you meant, say it. Lots of people call *all* peppers chiles.

Hot peppers are reasonably common fare in fast food shops, sandwich
operations and bars. Hell, we served them in both country clubs I ran.
How common is common?


>>>>Cookie Cutter wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Dennis Montey wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>Have tomatoes always been available in India/Pakistan region
>>>>>> or are they johnny-come-latelies which have been
>>>>>>incorporated as has occurred in Italian cuisine? When and
>>>>>>how were they introduced?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Why do you think tomatoes are new to Italy? Cortes arrived in
>>>>>Mexico around 1519 where he found tomatoes and they are
>>>>>described in Italian herbals just a few years later. If you
>>>>>mean that tomatoes were not in Italy in the year 1000 A.D or
>>>>>weren't around in 500 B.C., then you are quite right. Cortes
>>>>>and Columbus also brought peppers to the new world and they
>>>>>made it ASAP to India/Pakistan, probably in the same crate with
>>>>> a tomato plant.
>>>>>
>>>>>Cookie