In article >, this one
> wrote:

> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.

Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
had them in salads.

Tomatoes are relatively common in the cuisine of Campania (where my
wife comes from) , but even there, there are far more, say, pasta
dishes commonly eaten without tomatoes than with.

I can't help someone is mixing up food called "Italian" in the uS with
food actually eaten in Italy. I'm glad to say that there's a
considerable difference between them.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

I think it is the variety of uses that make them integral. That doesn't
mean they have to be in everything. Corn is integral to Mexican food
but you could certainly avoid it if you needed to.

Cookie

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >, this one
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>
>
> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
> had them in salads.
>

>>
>>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
>>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
>>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
>> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
>> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
>> had them in salads.
>>
>

I agree with Cookie. First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer
agrees with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
various forms. Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look at
any southern Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to pizza, to
juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in southern Italian cookbooks
since the late 17th century).

I doubt if you will find any other fruit or vegetable that is used in such
quantities or in so many different ways as tomatoes, but if others have
contrary evidence, let's see it.

Andy Smith

(ASmith1946) writes:

>Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
>While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
>in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them.

Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
public speakers?

Lee Rudolph

>
>Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
>there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
>public speakers?

Good point. If there is such a tradition it Italy, then this could account for
the large tomato production, as Italian politicians aren't very well respected
in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter).

Andy Smith

PS I've found very few primary source examples of thrown tomatoes (except in
tomato throwing events), and I've always wondered why.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >Is there an Italian tradition (as, if cartoons can be believed,
> >there is an American tradition) of throwing tomatoes at disprised
> >public speakers?
>
> Good point. If there is such a tradition it Italy, then this could account for
> the large tomato production, as Italian politicians aren't very well respected
> in Italy (or anywhere else for that matter).
>
> Andy Smith
>
> PS I've found very few primary source examples of thrown tomatoes (except in
> tomato throwing events), and I've always wondered why.

LOL!

As far as I can remember from reading USDA reports from way back when,
something like half of Italy's tomato production is exported. There was
also some importation for re-exportation too.
Like the olive oil :0

In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:

> >>
> >>>Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad variants of
> >>>tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes served fresh, are
> >>>pickled, dried and/or salted, they're virtually omnipresent.
> >>
> >>
> >> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair amount of
> >> each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree with Arri London on
> >> this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like tomatoes. Indeed he said he
> >> had them in salads.
> >>
> >
>
> I agree with Cookie.

Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in Italy,
and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference between
that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in Italy.

> First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer
> agrees with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
> various forms.
> Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers in the world.
> While many tomatoes are exported to other countries, the vast majority remain
> in Italy for domestic use. I tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look
> at
> any southern Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
> tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to pizza, to
> juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in southern Italian cookbooks
> since the late 17th century).

Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And summer
isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now, everyone will be
eating asparagus. (this may be true all over Germany - I don't know).

As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern Italian
cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy that southern
Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true. I've spent a lot
of time working with the food in Basilicata, traditionally a poor area,
with a wonderful simple cuisine. But have a look at this site on the
food of this area - right down in the south

http://www.bancadati.it/basilicata/b-ricette.html

You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used just
like parsley, in quite small quantities.

And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be made
to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in Tuscany, and
there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..

Goose fat is very common in the South-West of France (and I'd imagine
that France is the leading producer and consumer of the stuff), but
that doesnt' make it "virtually omnipresent" in French cuisine.
Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far higher
proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy - but again,
that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.

So. Tomatoes are common in the cooking of the south of Italy yes, but
"virtually omnipresent", no.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article >, Lazarus
Cooke > wrote:

Sorry - that basilicata link has changed to

http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>
>As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern Italian
>cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy that southern
>Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true. I've spent a lot
>of time working with the food in Basilicata, traditionally a poor area,
>with a wonderful simple cuisine. But have a look at this site on the
>food of this area - right down in the south
>
>http://www.bancadati.it/basilicata/b-ricette.html
>
>You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
>ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
>remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used just
>like parsley, in quite small quantities.
>
>And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be made
>to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in Tuscany, and
>there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..
>
>

It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
First, there are empirical ones-- how many tomatoes do Italians eat? How does
this compare with others? I maintain that, pound for pound, Italians eat more
tomatoes than any other fruit or vegetable, including parsley or chillies. In
fact, parsely and chillies are not even close. In addition, Italians eat more
tomatoes on a per capita basis than do other Europeans.

Second, there are the culinary myths that you and others have raised-- not all
Italians eat gobs of tomatoes at every meal, and even in the south where tomato
consumption is highest, tomatoes are certainly not used in every dish. And
Italian-America food (based, incidently, largely on southern Italian
immigrants) is not the same as the food eaten in Italy today. These are indeed
myths, it seems to me.

Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have one? Or
alternately, do Italians have a national cuisine and tomatoes are just not a
component?

Andy Smith

In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:



> It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> discussion.


This is a useful teasing apart of strands. There's not much here I'd
disagree with, although I'm not (yet!) convinced that they eat more
tomatoes than any other fruit of vegetable. Be interesting to find out,
though. Wheat??? Remember it's used , in the form of grain wheat, as a
vegetable in Tuscan soups, and as a key ingredient in a neapolitan
easter cake flavoured with orange flower water.
> First, there are empirical ones-- how many tomatoes do Italians eat? How does
> this compare with others? I maintain that, pound for pound, Italians eat more
> tomatoes than any other fruit or vegetable,

> including parsley or chillies.
Of course these are only eaten in tiny quantities.

> In
> fact, parsely and chillies are not even close. In addition, Italians eat more
> tomatoes on a per capita basis than do other Europeans.

At a guess I'm sure this is true.
>
> Second, there are the culinary myths that you and others have raised-- not all
> Italians eat gobs of tomatoes at every meal, and even in the south where
> tomato
> consumption is highest, tomatoes are certainly not used in every dish. And
> Italian-America food (based, incidently, largely on southern Italian
> immigrants) is not the same as the food eaten in Italy today. These are indeed
> myths, it seems to me.
>
> Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have one?

I think they do - in the same way as the French do. It's a collection
of different regional cuisines, in the same way.
Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

>There's not much here I'd
>disagree with, although I'm not (yet!) convinced that they eat more
>tomatoes than any other fruit of vegetable. Be interesting to find out,
>though. Wheat??? Remember it's used , in the form of grain wheat, as a

I guess from a scientific standpoint wheat is a fruit, but it common parlance
it is usually not classed as such. I don't have the statistics at hand, but I
have no doubt that Italians eat more wheat pound for pound than they do
tomatoes. I don't know how to test your view that Italians possibly eat more
wheat when it is consumed as a vegetable than they do tomatoes. I'd find that
difficult to believe.

>>
>> Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have
>one?
>
>I think they do - in the same way as the French do. It's a collection
>of different regional cuisines, in the same way.

We're back to this discussion -- which I found useful-- so let me try again.
Are there commonalities among regional Italian foods? If the answer is yes,
what are they? Does this include dishes with tomatoes as ingredients?

If the answer is no, then there doesn't seem to be an "Italian cuisine," only
local cusines-- or are there just individual preferences?

Andy Smith

On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.

Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
that's "typically Italian."

In article >, Frogleg
> wrote:

> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> >
> >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> >discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

As an Irishman, constructed almost entirely from potato, I accept this.
But I think we have to be cautious. The past six hundred odd years and
more have consisted of frantic shipping of food crops from one place to
another. Fifty years after a food crop has started being grown in a
country it seems like part of the landscape. Think of all those
tropical staples (by which I mean energy-rich foods like potatoes, rice
and wheat that form a lot of the basic fuel) such as breadfruit et al
that were shunted around.

None of the staples I was brought up on - wheat, potatoes, rice - were
native to Ireland, but they seem to be to most of the people there.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Frogleg wrote:
>
> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> >
> >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

True, although polenta was made from other grains prior to the
introduction of maize.

Frogleg wrote:
> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>>It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.
>
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

Polenta and cornmeal mush are the same thing. They are both cornmeal
and water. So polenta is not unique or original to Italy. African
countries that use a lot of corn probably have their own versions.

Fancy Old World polenta has a little parmesan added. Fancy New World
cornmeal mush has a little cheddar added to the dish.

Cookie

In ,
Frogleg wrote :

> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>>
>> It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
>> discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

In the Aosta valley (northern Italy), italophone Switzerland and
south-eastern France true polenta is still made from chestnut flour, the
maize flour substitute is also (more and more) named polenta, and sorrily
the chestnut polenta is being slowly forgotten, but maize is clearly a
substitute.

--
Salutations, greetings,
Guiraud Belissen, Chteau du Ciel, Drachenwald
Chris CII, Rennes, France

Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >,
> ASmith1946 > wrote:
>
>
>>>>> Tomatoes are ubiquitous in Italy. Between the myriad
>>>>> variants of tomato sauces and the settings where tomatoes
>>>>> served fresh, are pickled, dried and/or salted, they're
>>>>> virtually omnipresent.
>>>>
>>>> Sorry, this is just plain wrong. They aren't. I spend a fair
>>>> amount of each year in Italy (my wife is Italian). I agree
>>>> with Arri London on this. Also, he didn't say he doesn't like
>>>> tomatoes. Indeed he said he had them in salads.
>>>>
>>>
>> I agree with Cookie.
>
>
> Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
> continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in
> Italy, and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference
> between that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in
> Italy.

I will concede that it was a bit overstated.

>> First, my own experience in southern Italy in the summer agrees
>> with Cookie's observation that Italians eat plenty of tomatoes in
>> various forms. Second, Italy is one of the top tomato producers
>> in the world. While many tomatoes are exported to other
>> countries, the vast majority remain in Italy for domestic use. I
>> tend to think they eat them. Third, if you look at any southern
>> Italian (or Sicilian) cookbooks, you will find dozens of uses of
>> tomatoes in numerous dishes from soups, to sauces, to salads, to
>> pizza, to juice, etc. (and recipes with tomatoes have been in
>> southern Italian cookbooks since the late 17th century).
>
>
> Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And
> summer isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now,
> everyone will be eating asparagus. (this may be true all over
> Germany - I don't know).

And canned San Marzano (and others) are readily available. Tomato
paste in little squeeze tubes are everywhere available. Fresh
tomatoes, locally grown or not are available everywhere, all the time.

> As I said in my earler post, tomatoes are common in southern
> Italian cooking - from Campania down. But there's a wild fallacy
> that southern Italians put it in everything. This just ain't true.

Not only has no one said that, it was specifically discussed in terms
of being common, not omnipresent in all the foods.

> I've spent a lot of time working with the food in Basilicata,
> traditionally a poor area, with a wonderful simple cuisine. But
> have a look at this site on the food of this area - right down in
> the south
>
> <http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html>

This site talks about "la cucina Lucana" to distinguish it from other
regional cuisines. And this is fine, but look at a broader picture
than one web site. The books of the Hazans, Ada Boni's books (for a
more historical picture of the regional cuisines in the last century),
Bugialli, Middione, Lorenza de'Medici...

Look at the books of Carol Field, Anna Tasca Lanza, Mark Strausman,
Patricia Wells, Susan Herrmann Loomis, Wanda and Giovanna Tornabene.
Look at the translation of Artusi by Kyle Phillips.

> You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
> ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
> remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used
> just like parsley, in quite small quantities.

Why does this concept of being integral to a cuisine seem to be being
described as "in everything" rather than as a very common component of
the cooking of a region? It's almost as though the argument is that
since it's not in every meal in every dish, it's not "significant" in
the cuisine. It's ubiquitous in the sense that it's a common,
familiar, oft-used ingredient available in some form virtually
everywhere foods are sold.

> And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be
> made to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in
> Tuscany, and there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..

There is no "Italian cuisine." There are Italian cuisines. An easy way
to define that notion is to look at preferred cooking fats. In the
south, it's olive oil; up north, it's butter. Polenta is virtually
unheard of in the south. Smoked ham in the north is foreign to
southern cuisines. Look at the pasta differences and preferences. Look
at the vast number of dishes with local names that have no real
parallel in other regions. Or the same dishes that have different
names every few miles.

Tuscany didn't much use tomatoes until after the second world war when
people came north to find work and brought their cuisines with them.

> Goose fat is very common in the South-West of France (and I'd
> imagine that France is the leading producer and consumer of the
> stuff), but that doesnt' make it "virtually omnipresent" in French
> cuisine.

There is no national cuisine in France. One can hardly talk about the
Alsace and Provence in the same breath. Burgundy and the Loire.

> Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far
> higher proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy -
> but again, that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.

Of course it does. If it's eaten at virtually every meal, it is
exactly a staple. Like bread. But lettuce doesn't define any French
cuisine because it's considered more as an interlude, a break from the
real food. The cooked food.

> So. Tomatoes are common in the cooking of the south of Italy yes,
> but "virtually omnipresent", no.

Make the distinction between any given ingredient being available in
markets and being in dishes. Just because it's not in this dish
doesn't mean that it isn't consequential in the regional cuisine as a
whole.

Italy was a lot of small states until a century and a half ago.
Dialects change over very short distances. Sicilians don't easily
converse with Romans and Romans don't easily converse with Alpine
Italians. Different accents, sure, but different vocabularies as well.
That carries over to everything about daily life. Things grow near
Naples that don't grow near Venice. And vice versa. Different cuisines
result. The cuisines of the north use a lot of corn and milk products.
The cuisines of the south use lots of tomatoes and olive oil.

Pastorio

> > Perhaps the reason I reacted so fiercely is because it seemed to
> > continue a popular fallacy. Of course tomatoes are popular in
> > Italy, and very common in parts of Italy. There's a big difference
> > between that and saying that they're "virtually omnipresent" in
> > Italy.
>
> I will concede that it was a bit overstated.

I don't really think we're disagreeing about much. That's really all I
was saying.

> > Big qualifications here. "Southern Italy" is not "Italy". And
> > summer isn't all year round. If you go to Bavaria around now,
> > everyone will be eating asparagus. (this may be true all over
> > Germany - I don't know).
>
> And canned San Marzano (and others) are readily available. Tomato
> paste in little squeeze tubes are everywhere available. Fresh
> tomatoes, locally grown or not are available everywhere, all the time.
You'll probably find the same with asparagus in Germany.


>
> > I've spent a lot of time working with the food in Basilicata,
> > traditionally a poor area, with a wonderful simple cuisine. But
> > have a look at this site on the food of this area - right down in
> > the south
> >
> > <http://www.basilicata.bancadati.it/b-gastronomia.html>
>
> This site talks about "la cucina Lucana" to distinguish it from other
> regional cuisines.
Sure. I agree. It's just one example which I like and use that's
available on the net.
> And this is fine, but look at a broader picture
> than one web site. The books of the Hazans, Ada Boni's books (for a
> more historical picture of the regional cuisines in the last century),
> Bugialli, Middione, Lorenza de'Medici...
>
> Look at the books of Carol Field, Anna Tasca Lanza, Mark Strausman,
> Patricia Wells, Susan Herrmann Loomis, Wanda and Giovanna Tornabene.
> Look at the translation of Artusi by Kyle Phillips.
I've been looking through some of these and others. They seem to
suggest that heavily tomatoe-based food sort of begins in Camapnia, and
gets heavier as you go down through Calabria towards Sicily - but
that's only a brief glance, and I certainly wouldn't stand over it.
>
> > You'll find tomatoes in a number of the recipes, but it's far from
> > ubiquitous - probably less common than parsley or chillies. and
> > remember, in southern Italian cooking the tomato is often used
> > just like parsley, in quite small quantities.
>
> Why does this concept of being integral to a cuisine seem to be being
> described as "in everything" rather than as a very common component of
> the cooking of a region?

> It's almost as though the argument is that
> since it's not in every meal in every dish, it's not "significant" in
> the cuisine.

I agree that it's a very significant element. But that's not what
"ubiquitous" means. It means precisely "everywhere" or "in everything.
>
> > And the fact that it's popular in some parts of the south can't be
> > made to apply to the whole country. I spend a lot of time in
> > Tuscany, and there you'd hardly notice tomatoes. ..
>
> There is no "Italian cuisine." There are Italian cuisines.

I agree
>
> There is no national cuisine in France. One can hardly talk about the
> Alsace and Provence in the same breath. Burgundy and the Loire.

I think you can, just about, but again I don't really think we're
disagreeing here. You could argue that certain shared notions - such
as the order of of a standard meal - constitute a national cuisine. But
it's an arugment I'd be happy to argue on either side.
>
> > Lettuce is eaten at virtually every meal in France - a far
> > higher proportion of meals than tomatoes are eaten with in Italy -
> > but again, that doesn't really make it a staple of French cuisine.
>
> Of course it does. If it's eaten at virtually every meal, it is
> exactly a staple. Like bread.
That's not how I understand a staple. For me bread is, lettuce isn't.
My dictionary's unsatisafactory on this.


(rest snipped because I agree with most of it!)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address