Lazarus Cooke wrote:

> In article >, ASmith1946
> > wrote:
>
>
> There's a second point, which i think is interesting - the difference
> between tomatoes as a food and as a relish, or seasoning, which the
> italians havae brought to a fine art, although America and England
> haven't done badly. (Which is ketchup? I assume it's indian in origin
> and I think of it as being heinz par excellence but I think of England
> as an East west conduit)

Early catsups were usually made from mushrooms or walnuts or even
anchovies. I think the tomato was a latecomer to the catsup bottle.
There is also a lot of debate about its geographical origin. There seem
to be as many opinions as there are writers.

Cookie

In article >, ASmith1946
> wrote:

> > (Which is ketchup? I assume it's indian in origin
> >and I think of it as being heinz par excellence but I think of England
> >as an East west conduit)
>
>
>
> The word "ketchup" originated in China,....

Crikey! That's the last time I ask a rhetorical question!

Many thanks!

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

ASmith1946 extrapolated from data available...


>
> And before anyone asks, yes, I did write a book on this too -- Pure
> Ketchup: A Social History of America's National Condiment (Columbia:
> The University of South Carolina Press, 1996) and the paperback
> edition was released by the Smithsonian Institution Press in April
> 2001.
>
> See what a misspent research/writing life I've led?
>
In several episodes of the popular TV series, Iron Chefs, the Chinese
champion(s) uses US Ketchup (no pretense of Chinese origin) as an ingedient
in shrimp dishes because of its savory sweetness.

Much publicized in the US lately has been the supposed overtaking and
passing of ketchup sales by those of picante sauce (a culinary trend in
which Heinz has been left far behind by other Tomato-based food
conglomerates. Just think, soon your next edition will have a title change
to "Former National Condiment".

Tomato paste is certainly an ingredient with applications spreading far
beyond the realm of the tomato, coloring agent, thickener, modest
acidifier.

TMO

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >There's not much here I'd
> >disagree with, although I'm not (yet!) convinced that they eat more
> >tomatoes than any other fruit of vegetable. Be interesting to find out,
> >though. Wheat??? Remember it's used , in the form of grain wheat, as a
>
> I guess from a scientific standpoint wheat is a fruit, but it common parlance
> it is usually not classed as such.

No, wheat is a seed. A fruit is a container for seeds. So tomatoes are
fruits, while wheat is not.


I don't have the statistics at hand, but I
> have no doubt that Italians eat more wheat pound for pound than they do
> tomatoes. I don't know how to test your view that Italians possibly eat more
> wheat when it is consumed as a vegetable than they do tomatoes. I'd find that
> difficult to believe.
>
> >>
> >> Finally, we're back to what is a national cuisine. Do the Italians have
> >one?
> >
> >I think they do - in the same way as the French do. It's a collection
> >of different regional cuisines, in the same way.
>
> We're back to this discussion -- which I found useful-- so let me try again.
> Are there commonalities among regional Italian foods? If the answer is yes,
> what are they? Does this include dishes with tomatoes as ingredients?
>
> If the answer is no, then there doesn't seem to be an "Italian cuisine," only
> local cusines-- or are there just individual preferences?
>
> Andy Smith

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> > (Which is ketchup? I assume it's indian in origin
> >and I think of it as being heinz par excellence but I think of England
> >as an East west conduit)
>
> The word "ketchup" originated in China, but it is not likely from Mandarin--
> but some southern dialect. Initially, it mean fermented or pickled fish. As the
> word migrated through Southeast Asia, it shifted meanings. By the time it
> reached Indonesia, it meant (and continues to mean) fermented soy and other
> fermented products.
>
> The British ran into it in their colony in what is today Indonesia, and brought
> the concept back to England. Early ketchups were made from mushrooms,
> anchovies, walnuts, etc.


They still are available in the UK. I've bought bottled versions of all
three and cooked with them. Many people still make them at home too.


Eventually ketchup was made from every common
> vegetable and fruit. Tomato came into existence about 1800 in the UK and US.
> Tomato ketchup became dominant in the US after the Civil War, as a byproduct of
> the tomato canning industry. The low price of tomato ketchup eventually drove
> the other ketchups out of business in the US (by the 1930s) and in the UK by
> the 1960s.

Ummm the 'other' ketchups are still made commercially, although perhaps
considered specialty items now.

>
> And before anyone asks, yes, I did write a book on this too -- Pure Ketchup: A
> Social History of America's National Condiment (Columbia: The University of
> South Carolina Press, 1996) and the paperback edition was released by the
> Smithsonian Institution Press in April 2001.
>
> See what a misspent research/writing life I've led?
>
> Andy Smith

LOL!

Lazarus Cooke wrote:
>
> In article >, ASmith1946
> > wrote:
>
> > > (Which is ketchup? I assume it's indian in origin
> > >and I think of it as being heinz par excellence but I think of England
> > >as an East west conduit)
> >
> >
> >
> > The word "ketchup" originated in China,....
>
> Crikey! That's the last time I ask a rhetorical question!
>
> Many thanks!
>
> L


ROTFL! You should know better by now

Jodie Kain wrote:
>
> quoting Arri London:
> Dennis Montey wrote:
> >>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
> >> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by
> >>peppers?
> >
> >Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
> >out.
>
> However, ketchup is quite popular in Mongolia - a squirt on top of a
> meat-filled dumpling (buuz). I don't believe tomatoes are grown there, as
> the ketchup I saw was imported & expensive. I did see some experimental
> farms in the northern Gobi where they grew tomatoes, melons & cucumbers -
> all sliced for eating raw. Good healthy food is hard to come by sometimes
> & new additions are welcome.


The traditional Mongolian diet is perfectly healthy. Otherwise the
population would have died out centuries ago, n'est-ce pas?

My own assumption as to why northern
> Europeans adopted the tomato, bell peppers, etc, was because they were SO
> TIRED of cabbage ;-) Of course I have nothing to support this opinion.

LOL there is nothing to support that of course. Europeans have always
adopted new foods that suited them. That's one of the benefits of trade.
However not all Europeans have always adopted all foods with equal
enthusiasm.

>
>No, wheat is a seed. A fruit is a container for seeds. So tomatoes are
>fruits, while wheat is not.

By definition, wheat is the fruit of Triticum plant. Unless you eat wheat germ,
which is the seed, the part we consume is that which encases the seed-- aka the
fruit.

Andy Smith

>So tomatoes are
>fruits, while wheat is not.

And furthermore... while the tomato is the fruit of the tomato plant, it is in
fact a berry, by definition.

Andy Smith

>
>They still are available in the UK. I've bought bottled versions of all
>three and cooked with them. Many people still make them at home too.
>

Arri:

Where do you buy them? I was able to get the until a few years ago, then they
disappeared.

Andy Smith

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >They still are available in the UK. I've bought bottled versions of all
> >three and cooked with them. Many people still make them at home too.
> >
>
> Arri:
>
> Where do you buy them? I was able to get the until a few years ago, then they
> disappeared.
>
> Andy Smith

Usually they are in larger (and maybe posh) supermarkets or specialty
shops in the UK. The walnut ketchup/catsup was harder to get and seemed
to appear around Christmas mostly, along with the pickled walnuts. Never
tried to buy it in the US and haven't tried to buy any in the UK within
the past 5 years.

Let's see what's online:

mushroom ketchup
http://www.ketchupworld.com/geowatmusket.html

anchovy ketchup/essence
http://www.britishgoods.com/Sauces.htm
(although anchovy paste works perfectly well in most recipes calling for
the essence)

Didn't find an online source of walnut ketchup/catsup. You might ask on
uk.food+drink.misc if someone can get you a bottle (if it's still made)
and send it along.
Otherwise Mrs Beeton has a recipe for it.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >No, wheat is a seed. A fruit is a container for seeds. So tomatoes are
> >fruits, while wheat is not.
>
> By definition, wheat is the fruit of Triticum plant. Unless you eat wheat germ,
> which is the seed, the part we consume is that which encases the seed-- aka the
> fruit.
>
> Andy Smith

LOL Ok I learnt it a little differently.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >So tomatoes are
> >fruits, while wheat is not.
>
> And furthermore... while the tomato is the fruit of the tomato plant, it is in
> fact a berry, by definition.
>
> Andy Smith

Yes, but berries are fruits...they contain seeds.

Arri:

Many thanks-- Mushroom ketchup used to be imported from the UK and sold at
Williamsburg, but they didn't have any the last time I was there.

I'll look for them again when I go to Oxford in September.

Andy Smith

>
>Usually they are in larger (and maybe posh) supermarkets or specialty
>shops in the UK. The walnut ketchup/catsup was harder to get and seemed
>to appear around Christmas mostly, along with the pickled walnuts. Never
>tried to buy it in the US and haven't tried to buy any in the UK within
>the past 5 years.
>
>Let's see what's online:
>
>mushroom ketchup
>http://www.ketchupworld.com/geowatmusket.html
>
>anchovy ketchup/essence
>http://www.britishgoods.com/Sauces.htm
>(although anchovy paste works perfectly well in most recipes calling for
>the essence)
>
>Didn't find an online source of walnut ketchup/catsup. You might ask on
>uk.food+drink.misc if someone can get you a bottle (if it's still made)
>and send it along.
>Otherwise Mrs Beeton has a recipe for it.
>
>
>
>
>
>

>
>Yes, but berries are fruits...they contain seeds.

True, true...

How about commercial bananas? They are not a fruit, as they do not contain
seeds. Are they botanically an herb?

Andy

>
>> By definition, wheat is the fruit of Triticum plant. Unless you eat wheat
>germ,
>> which is the seed, the part we consume is that which encases the seed-- aka
>the
>> fruit.
>>
>> Andy Smith
>
>LOL Ok I learnt it a little differently.
>



Here I thought, botany was botany,
the world around, and all scientists agreed
upon the basics, such as nomenclature and definitions...

Andy Smith

I seem to remember bananas comtaining seeds back when I was a kid.
These weren't like watermellon seeds -- they were small and soft and
didn't contribute anything to the banana's texture but you could see
them -- i.e. something you see but not really taste or feel. I think
modern bananas have been hydridized not to have them anymore like some
oranges.

Cookie


ASmith1946 wrote:

>>Yes, but berries are fruits...they contain seeds.
>
>
> True, true...
>
> How about commercial bananas? They are not a fruit, as they do not contain
> seeds. Are they botanically an herb?
>
> Andy

quoting Arri London:
>>Jodie Kain wrote:
>>
>> quoting Arri London:
>> Dennis Montey wrote:
>> >>Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
>> >> other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by
>> >>peppers?
>> >
>> >Chiles don't play any role in Mongolian cooking, as far as I can find
>> >out.
>>
>> However, ketchup is quite popular in Mongolia - a squirt on top of a
>> meat-filled dumpling (buuz). I don't believe tomatoes are grown there,
>as
>> the ketchup I saw was imported & expensive. I did see some experimental
>> farms in the northern Gobi where they grew tomatoes, melons & cucumbers
>-
>> all sliced for eating raw. Good healthy food is hard to come by
>sometimes
>> & new additions are welcome.
>
>
>The traditional Mongolian diet is perfectly healthy. Otherwise the
>population would have died out centuries ago, n'est-ce pas?

A bit of a simplification.
Perfectly healthy when the lifespan isn't that long. However, modern
Mongols are living almost as long as Western Europeans & are experiencing
diseases new to their culture, directly related to their diet. Like heart
disease, colo-rectal cancers due to constipation, kidney disease due
to meat protein,etc. So there's a new awareness of diet as it relates to
longevity. Everywhere we travelled people expressed their pride in their
mutton-based diet, however almost everyone also proudly demonstrated their
newfound interest in adding fruits & vegetables to every meal. This seemed
to be the same reason for the increased consumption of airag (fermented
mare's milk - very low alcohol but can make you very drunk) vs. vodka
which is seen (rightly) as bad for you & bad for society (although still
the most popular alcoholic beverage). ie, "I don't want to give up my
party lifestyle but I do want to live longer to continue partying" The
intellectual approach is quaint. And yes, the above is also a
simplification as my "proof" is anecdotal.
cheers,
Jodie

On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> wrote:

>I certainly did not intend to infer that tomatoes were 'new' to Italy.
>My question referred to the introduction of tomatoes after they had an
>established cuisine. We often associate tomatoes or tomato sauces with
>the popular dishes of Italy. The same is true of India. Indian cuisine
>brings to mind thick, spicy tomato based currie sauces with a great deal
>of heat. In the USA, we are accustomed to regular introductions of
>exotic and not so exotic food items. We experiment with different
>ethnicities and fusions, though none have so dramaticall changed our
>eating habits Keeping in mind , of course, that our national diet is
>the result of a grand melting pot.. However, it would seem that the
>introduction of the tomato and pepper have made them staple ingredients
>in these two cultures. Is this also the case in Thai, Mongolian and
>other Asian cuisines who are soooo fond of the heat contributed by peppers?

It appears as if, as soon as people could cross oceans, they started
trading food and food plants. Where growiing a new food crop was
possible, it was adopted and the cuisine adapted. Remember that one of
the motivations for 15th century European exploration was a shorter(!)
route to spice-producing regions. The most dramatic influx of new food
items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
and chocolate originated in the New World.

On Wed, 12 May 2004 16:01:33 +0000 (UTC), (Jodie
Kain) wrote:

> This seemed
>to be the same reason for the increased consumption of airag (fermented
>mare's milk - very low alcohol but can make you very drunk)

That must mean you are likely to drink vast quantities of it??

vs. vodka
>which is seen (rightly) as bad for you & bad for society (although still
>the most popular alcoholic beverage). ie, "I don't want to give up my

Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a


Ask not with whom the buck stops . . .

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >> By definition, wheat is the fruit of Triticum plant. Unless you eat wheat
> >germ,
> >> which is the seed, the part we consume is that which encases the seed-- aka
> >the
> >> fruit.
> >>
> >> Andy Smith
> >
> >LOL Ok I learnt it a little differently.
> >
>
> Here I thought, botany was botany,
> the world around, and all scientists agreed
> upon the basics, such as nomenclature and definitions...
>
> Andy Smith

LOL no doubt but I'm not a botanist by trade.

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >Yes, but berries are fruits...they contain seeds.
>
> True, true...
>
> How about commercial bananas? They are not a fruit, as they do not contain
> seeds. Are they botanically an herb?
>
> Andy

But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were seeds,
although sterile?

But here is a place to get banana seeds:
http://www.bananagarden.com/catalogv3/default.php

Don't forget potatoes!

Cookie



Frogleg wrote:

> On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> > wrote:
>
The most dramatic influx of new food
> items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
> tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
> and chocolate originated in the New World.

>
>But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were seeds,
>although sterile?
>

Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas

Andy Smith

ASmith1946 wrote:
>
> >
> >But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were seeds,
> >although sterile?
> >
>
> Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas
>
> Andy Smith

LOL! No neither did I.
But I suppose the container (for seeds) concept still stands, even if
the container is empty.

In article >,
Cookie Cutter > wrote:

> Don't forget potatoes!
>
> Cookie
>
>
>
> Frogleg wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 09 May 2004 09:20:02 -0500, Dennis Montey
> > > wrote:
> >
> The most dramatic influx of new food
> > items must surely have been the "discovery" of the Americas. Not only
> > tomatoes, corn, and capsicums, but also pineapple, papaya, vanilla
> > and chocolate originated in the New World.

And all the standard squash/pumpkin varieties.

--
Remove NOSPAM to email
Also remove .invalid
www.daviddfriedman.com

"Arri London" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ASmith1946 wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were
seeds,
> > >although sterile?
> > >
> >
> > Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas
> >
> > Andy Smith
>
> LOL! No neither did I.
> But I suppose the container (for seeds) concept still stands, even if
> the container is empty.

The banana is an herb. I thought that the bit we eat is an ovary.

Charlie

ASmith1946 > wrote:

> The Chinese have known about the tomato for centuries
> (they call it the "foreign eggplant") and it never really became important.

are you sure about the rendering? To my knowledge, xirongshi means:
"western red persimmon"

> However, for the past few years, the PRC has been the largest producer of
> tomatoes in the world (surpassing the US which has been the largest producer
> for years). Evidently, tomatoes are mainly eaten fresh like an apple-- just
> bite into them and add a little salt. Actually, this is a good way to eat
> tomatoes, provided...
>
In the PRC they are also industrially processed and exported, often in
bulk, and canned in third part countries

--
lilian

Charles Gifford wrote:
>
> "Arri London" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >
> > ASmith1946 wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >But I always thought the little specks in commercial bananas were
> seeds,
> > > >although sterile?
> > > >
> > >
> > > Heck if I know-- I didn't write a book about bananas
> > >
> > > Andy Smith
> >
> > LOL! No neither did I.
> > But I suppose the container (for seeds) concept still stands, even if
> > the container is empty.
>
> The banana is an herb. I thought that the bit we eat is an ovary.
>
> Charlie

Don't know of the banana is an herb; a herbaceous plant isn't
necessarily an herb. Just not woody.
Here is info from the experts:
http://www.crfg.org/pubs/ff/banana.html

>> The Chinese have known about the tomato for centuries
>> (they call it the "foreign eggplant") and it never really became important.
>
>are you sure about the rendering? To my knowledge, xirongshi means:
>"western red persimmon"

There are two Chinese words for "tomato." One is transliterated "xirongshi"
as you note. It tends to be used by northerners. The second and more common
word is transliterated as "fan qui," whose direct translation is "foreign
eggplant," although it is also sometimes translated as "western eggplant." It
tends to be used by southerners.

>
>> However, for the past few years, the PRC has been the largest producer of
>> tomatoes in the world (surpassing the US which has been the largest
>producer
>> for years). Evidently, tomatoes are mainly eaten fresh like an apple-- just
>> bite into them and add a little salt. Actually, this is a good way to eat
>> tomatoes, provided...
>>
>In the PRC they are also industrially processed and exported, often in
>bulk, and canned in third part countries
>
>--

I'd greatly appreciate the source for the above information. I looked for
Chinese export information through FAO, and did not locate much.

Andy Smith

>
>

ASmith1946 > wrote:

> There are two Chinese words for "tomato." One is transliterated "xirongshi"
> as you note. It tends to be used by northerners.

Here I can only disagree: it's the most common term used in Mandarin

> The second and more common
> word is transliterated as "fan qui," whose direct translation is "foreign
> eggplant,"

fan qie, for the second, and I doubt it is the most common.
Now it is correct that qiezi means eggplant, but the translation you
suggest for fan (foreign?) sounds pretty strange to my ears.
My Chinese is quite rusty, but I would appreciate if you could explain
haw you got there

> although it is also sometimes translated as "western eggplant." It
> tends to be used by southerners.

western eggplant would become xiqie: never heard it, but it could be a
local usage
> >
> I'd greatly appreciate the source for the above information. I looked for
> Chinese export information through FAO, and did not locate much.
>
From personal experience (I spent several years working in China): be
sure a large European company tried to import bulk processed tomatoes
from there since 1986; if what you need is written information that you
can quote, I would not look into FAO records. Chinese Provincial
Authorities publish regularly import/export statistics: they are not
particularly prized for their accuracy, but still, better than nothing.
I am also aware of Italian newspapers (this must be a sub-italian
thread!) that reacted outreaged, a short while ago, learning that their
tomatoes could have came from the Far East. But that has happened,
surely, long before. If you need more details I would be glad to help
you privately: the address is valid

--
lilian

>
>Here I can only disagree: it's the most common term used in Mandarin
>
>> The second and more common
>> word is transliterated as "fan qui," whose direct translation is "foreign
>> eggplant,"
>
>fan qie, for the second, and I doubt it is the most common.
>Now it is correct that qiezi means eggplant, but the translation you
>suggest for fan (foreign?) sounds pretty strange to my ears.
>My Chinese is quite rusty, but I would appreciate if you could explain
>haw you got there


The organization I run (www.globaled.org) operates programs in the PRC and we
have a staff member who is Chinese. Then, we work closely with the Chinese
community in New York, and they say the same thing. And then the title of the
Mandarin language version of my previously mentioend tomato book is "fan qui."
That's it.

>
>> although it is also sometimes translated as "western eggplant." It
>> tends to be used by southerners.
>
>western eggplant would become xiqie: never heard it, but it could be a
>local usage
>> >
>> I'd greatly appreciate the source for the above information. I looked for
>> Chinese export information through FAO, and did not locate much.
>>
>From personal experience (I spent several years working in China): be
>sure a large European company tried to import bulk processed tomatoes
>from there since 1986; if what you need is written information that you
>can quote, I would not look into FAO records. Chinese Provincial
>Authorities publish regularly import/export statistics: they are not
>particularly prized for their accuracy, but still, better than nothing.
>I am also aware of Italian newspapers (this must be a sub-italian
>thread!) that reacted outreaged, a short while ago, learning that their
>tomatoes could have came from the Far East. But that has happened,
>surely, long before. If you need more details I would be glad to help
>you privately: the address is valid

The huge growth of the tomato industry in the PRC has occurred in the past five
years (according to FAO statistics). It is extremely unlikely that tomatoes
grown in the PRC would be shipped to another country for processing. In the US,
the time from picking to processing is measured in minutes and hours. Tomatoes
are picked, transported to a factory, processed, and stored, bottled or canned,
and boxed (and often shipped) usually within 2-12 hours of picking.

It is, of course, possible to pick green tomatoes in China and ship them almost
anywhere before processing. But the taste is less than satisfactory. They would
not meet US standards and I'd doubt that they'd meet EU standards either.

All the evidence I've been able to locate suggests that the Chinese
(particularly in the South) now eat plenty of tomatoes. They are consumed raw
with salt added, which seems to me to be so... un-Chinese.

Andy Smith

Following this thread, one of the things that astonishes me
is that the Chinese should have observed a relationship
between an eggplant and a tomato.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

>
>Following this thread, one of the things that astonishes me
>is that the Chinese should have observed a relationship
>between an eggplant and a tomato.
>

Hi Bob:

Actually, so did everyone else. The two plants are remotely related
botanically. Most early European herbals listed tomatoes as a variety of
eggplants. The first "tomato" recipe (1541) says that they are "eaten in the
same manner as the eggplant," which were fried in oil with salt and pepper,
like mushrooms. This confusion/connection between the eggplant and the tomato
continued into the 20th century.

Andy Smith

On 14 May 2004, ASmith1946 wrote:

> >
> >Following this thread, one of the things that astonishes me
> >is that the Chinese should have observed a relationship
> >between an eggplant and a tomato.
> >
> Actually, so did everyone else. The two plants are remotely related
> botanically. Most early European herbals listed tomatoes as a variety of

Not so remote a connection--they belong to the same genus (Solanum).

--Geeta

I believe some old varieties of egglplant were generally the size and
shape of an egg and were white to pinkish in color, hence the name. I
have also seen antique varieties of tomatoes that were purplish in color.

So, it is possible that the varieties of tomatoes and eggplants back
then in China resembled each other more closely than the 2 pound purple
kidney-shaped eggplant and bright red (though hard) tomato that we have
in the market today.

Cookie


Opinicus wrote:

> Following this thread, one of the things that astonishes me
> is that the Chinese should have observed a relationship
> between an eggplant and a tomato.
>

On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
>
>It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this discussion.

Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
that's "typically Italian."

>
>I believe some old varieties of egglplant were generally the size and
>shape of an egg and were white to pinkish in color, hence the name. I
>have also seen antique varieties of tomatoes that were purplish in color.

Quite true. Both eggplants and tomatoes self-fertilize, and hence there is wide
variety re size, shape, and color of both plants. In the US, we've just settled
on "red" for tomatoes (and some yellow) and "purple" or "white" for eggplants.
But there are translucent tomatoes, orange ones, multi-color ones, and
perfectly ripe green ones. (The so-called purple ones, I always thought, were
not described properly; they are really a deep red.) There is a similar
variability in eggplants.

Tomatoes and eggplants were also classified along with mandrake, which has
small yellow fruit, almost exactly the same as the yellow cherry tomato.
Mandrake fruit are commonly eaten in Israel (and I suspect Turkey?)

Then again, large tomatoes prior to about 1800 were not as juicy as today's
tomatoes-- they tended to be hard with green stems and cores, etc.

Andy Smith

In article >, Cookie Cutter
> wrote:

> I believe some old varieties of egglplant were generally the size and
> shape of an egg and were white to pinkish in color, hence the name. I
> have also seen antique varieties of tomatoes that were purplish in color.

Yes, in Ghana in Africa, and I seem to remember the West Indies too,
eggplants ("aubergines" in the uK) are known as jungle(? this is the
wrong word ?) eggs.

In the market in Brixton, the black area of London where I live, you
can buy white eggplants that look just like goose eggs. (Also colossal
living snails, living, the largest I've ever seen outside Africa)

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

In article >, Frogleg
> wrote:

> On 10 May 2004 11:14:04 GMT, (ASmith1946) wrote:
> >
> >It seems to me that we have several interesting threads within this
> >discussion.
>
> Anyone care to bring polenta to the boil? Another New World ingredient
> that's "typically Italian."

As an Irishman, constructed almost entirely from potato, I accept this.
But I think we have to be cautious. The past six hundred odd years and
more have consisted of frantic shipping of food crops from one place to
another. Fifty years after a food crop has started being grown in a
country it seems like part of the landscape. Think of all those
tropical staples (by which I mean energy-rich foods like potatoes, rice
and wheat that form a lot of the basic fuel) such as breadfruit et al
that were shunted around.

None of the staples I was brought up on - wheat, potatoes, rice - were
native to Ireland, but they seem to be to most of the people there.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address