Olivers wrote:

> Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
> ... Right.
>
>>Like wild blueberry ice cream...
>>
>>There are so, so many more like these...
>>
> That's no "boil in a bag" Pueblo basket, Bob. That's a home ice cream
> freezer...
>
> The little basket with the cream and eggs goes inside, then the snow and
> the some of that gypsum salt from down on the Pecos around them. Twirl it
> around your head forty times, and it's ice cream. Next year, if the bees
> will cooperate, we can make it taste better, and if the shaman Looks Like
> Puke makes it back from his pilgrimage to the cenotes of the Yucatan, maybe
> we'll have some vanilla beans to add.
>
> Meanwhile, scrape the skin off some more of them peaches, Little Bird With
> Big Butt.
>
> TMO
>
> Next you'll be showing us one of the PreColumbian deep fat fryers for
> making "Indian Fry Bread".

Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
xocholotl-chip cookies.

Yummy.

Pastorio

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:


>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>
>Yummy.
>
>Pastorio

I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
them, of course.)


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>>
>>Yummy.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
> them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
> them, of course.)

Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."

According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
whole day in the potty.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote

> According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they
enjoyed often
> included hot peppers of one sort or another and was
considered an
> aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma
reportedly
> drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or
he spent his
> whole day in the potty.

This imparts a whole new meaning to "Montezuma's Revenge",
an affliction that besets NordAmericanos visiting Mexico for
the first time.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>
>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>whole day in the potty.
>
>Pastorio

The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>>
>>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>>whole day in the potty.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
> about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
> Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
> chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm

Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.

It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.

All in the interests of science...

Pastorio

>>> [Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>> was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>> Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
> Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
> chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
> more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
> likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
> foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
> It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
> to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
> no concentrated sweeteners according to him.

Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
would any grit come from that way?

I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
to put up with poor-quality anything. Particularly when there was
a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

>
>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.


Bob:

I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
froth.

Andy Smith

ASmith1946 wrote:

>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.
>
> Bob:
>
> I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
> produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

I've read that, Andy.

Gary brought back a kind of whisk that he said was what was used to
make a hot water based beverage that was to be entirely consumed. He
got it in the back country somewhere and was told that it was the
"traditional" way. Could be a tradition that went all the way back to,
oh, last Wednesday. Quien sabe?

The whisk was a tree branch the end of which had been pounded (or
something) to break apart the fibers. It looked like Don King's hair.
Piece of chocolate in a mug, hot water (with or without finely minced
chile) and whisk away until your arm was the size of
Schwartzenegger's. It frothed. It's likely the predecessor of the
molinillo used in making modern Mexican-style hot chocolate.

It's, of course, entirely possible that there was either some fakelore
or mistaken understanding going on.

> And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
> no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
> froth.

I'll give you honey, but vanilla is a stretch for being a sweetener.

Pastorio

Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
the Bill of Fare.

Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole

Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
quite horchata, but....

TMo

Olivers wrote:

> Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
> butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
> back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
> earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
> versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
> pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
> bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
> the Bill of Fare.
>
> Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole
>
> Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
> volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
> morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
> try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
> quite horchata, but....

We gave up combining it with anything after we tried the Kahlua. I think.

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
> butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
> back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
> earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
> versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
> pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
> bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
> the Bill of Fare.
>
> Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole
>
> Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
> volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
> morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
> try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
> quite horchata, but....

We gave up combining it with anything after we tried the Kahlua. I think.

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
> butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
> back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
> earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
> versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
> pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
> bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
> the Bill of Fare.
>
> Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole
>
> Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
> volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
> morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
> try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
> quite horchata, but....

We gave up combining it with anything after we tried the Kahlua. I think.

Pastorio

>
>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.


Bob:

I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
froth.

Andy Smith

Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
the Bill of Fare.

Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole

Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
quite horchata, but....

TMo

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>>
>>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>>whole day in the potty.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
> about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
> Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
> chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm

Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.

It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.

All in the interests of science...

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote

> According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they
enjoyed often
> included hot peppers of one sort or another and was
considered an
> aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma
reportedly
> drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or
he spent his
> whole day in the potty.

This imparts a whole new meaning to "Montezuma's Revenge",
an affliction that besets NordAmericanos visiting Mexico for
the first time.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>
>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>whole day in the potty.
>
>Pastorio

The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>>
>>Yummy.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
> them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
> them, of course.)

Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."

According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
whole day in the potty.

Pastorio

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:


>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>
>Yummy.
>
>Pastorio

I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
them, of course.)


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish