I saw a bottle of this in Tesco's the leading Brit supermarket chain,
yesterday. Made by Geo. Watkins, according to an old recipe.

I didn't buy it, as the ingredients were mostly just vinegar etc, and
1% mushroom powder, but I feel that I chickened out, and for the honor
of this group I should get some next time and taste it on behalf of us
all.

Lazarus

--
Remover the rock from the email address

On Tue, 18 May 2004 14:23:08 +0100, Lazarus Cooke
> wrote:

>I saw a bottle of this in Tesco's the leading Brit supermarket chain,
>yesterday. Made by Geo. Watkins, according to an old recipe.
>
>I didn't buy it, as the ingredients were mostly just vinegar etc, and
>1% mushroom powder, but I feel that I chickened out, and for the honor
>of this group I should get some next time and taste it on behalf of us
>all.
>
>Lazarus

1% mushroom powder by weight probably represents some 25% by volume of
the sauce, remembering by how much dried mushrooms swell in water.

Yes, buy it and let us know what it tastes like.

BTW, Mrs Beeton's receipe for mushroom ketchup doesn't contain any
vinegar:

MUSHROOM KETCHUP.

472. INGREDIENTS.—To each peck of mushrooms 1/2 lb. of salt; to each
quart of mushroom-liquor 1/4 oz. of cayenne, 1/2 oz. of allspice, 1/2
oz. of ginger, 2 blades of pounded mace.

Mode.—Choose full-grown mushroom-flaps, and take care they are
perfectly fresh-gathered when the weather is tolerably dry; for, if
they are picked during very heavy rain, the ketchup from which they
are made is liable to get musty, and will not keep long. Put a layer
of them in a deep pan, sprinkle salt over them, and then another layer
of mushrooms, and so on alternately. Let them remain for a few hours,
when break them up with the hand; put them in a nice cool place for 3
days, occasionally stirring and mashing them well, to extract from
them as much juice as possible. Now measure the quantity of liquor
without straining, and to each quart allow the above proportion of
spices, &c. Put all into a stone jar, cover it up very closely, put it
in a saucepan of boiling water, set it over the fire, and let it boil
for 3 hours. Have ready a nice clean stewpan; turn into it the
contents of the jar, and let the whole simmer very gently for 1/2
hour; pour it into a jug, where it should stand in a cool place till
the next day; then pour it off into another jug, and strain it into
very dry clean bottles, and do not squeeze the mushrooms. To each pint
of ketchup add a few drops of brandy. Be careful not to shake the
contents, but leave all the sediment behind in the jug; cork well, and
either seal or rosin the cork, so as perfectly to exclude the air.
When a very clear bright ketchup is wanted, the liquor must be
strained through a very fine hair-sieve, or flannel bag, after it has
been very gently poured off; if the operation is not successful, it
must be repeated until you have quite a clear liquor. It should be
examined occasionally, and if it is spoiling, should be reboiled with
a few peppercorns.

In article >, Richard Wright
> wrote:

> 1% mushroom powder by weight probably represents some 25% by volume of
> the sauce, remembering by how much dried mushrooms swell in water.

I know, I know. I thought the same thing just after I'd left. I buy
dried porcini at absurd prices by weight, but they're good value by
flavor.

I'll get back to you.

L

--
Remover the rock from the email address

Here is a recipe for Mushroom Ketchup using American measurements.
I haven't tried it myself but all these posts have inspired me to give
it a try. The recipe does not give an amount for the vinegar -- I think
that must be a typo -- so I guess the best approach is to add vinegar
little by little until the desired piquancy is achieved.

BTW, someone in another thread was talking about early catsups
in terms of condiments. My impression from reading old cookbooks
is that they were used to flavor sauces and gravies. I didn't think
they made it to the table for individual diners to use as condiments.
Anyone think otherwise?

Mushroom Ketchup

3/4 ounce (1 package) dried boletus (porcini or cepes) (optional)
3 pounds mushrooms
2 tablespoons sea or pickling salt
1 whole pod cayenne pepper, or 1/4 teaspoon crushed hot red pepper flakes
1/2 teaspoon whole black peppercorns
1/2 teaspoon whole allspice
1/2 teaspoon whole cloves
1 or 2 blades mace, broken up, or large pinch of powdered mace
1/2 nutmeg, crushed
2 bay leaves
1 teaspoon grated fresh ginger root
2 large shallots
4 to 6 garlic cloves
Red wine vinegar
2 tablespoons red wine

I. If you are using the dried mushrooms, spread them in a heatproof
bowl. Bring 1 cup of water to a full boil, and pour it over them. Let
them steep for half an hour, then lift the mushrooms out carefully,
dipping them in the water to loosen any sand that may be attached. Put
them in a saucepan that will hold all their soaking water comfortably.
Pour the water over the mushrooms, through a coffee filter or an undyed
paper towel, and turn on the heat to medium. Cook the mushrooms until
the liquid has evaporated and been absorbed, stirring frequently to keep
them from sticking or scorching. Turn off the heat and let them cool.

2. Wipe the fresh mushrooms with a dry towel to remove any grit that may
be clinging to them. If they are very large, break them into several
pieces. Put a layer of them in the bottom of a ceramic or stone crock
with the reconstituted wild mushrooms, if using, and their juice.
Sprinkle them liberally with salt. Put on another layer of mushrooms and
salt, continuing until all the mushrooms and salt are used.

3. Cover the crock tightly and set it in a cool, dark place. (If your
house is particularly warm [more than 70° F.], this had better be the
refrigerator, because the mushrooms will mold on the top if allowed to
sit for too long at too high a temperature.) After the mushrooms have
steeped for only a few minutes, they will begin to wilt. Within an hour
or two, the contents of the crock will have reduced by half. Let them
steep for at least 24 hours, pressing on them from time to time with a
clean spoon.

4. After the mushrooms have steeped for the allotted time, set a food
mill or large wire sieve over a stainless-steel or enameled kettle large
enough to hold the contents of the crock. Force the mushrooms through
the mill or sieve, along with all their juices that have accumulated,
into the saucepan. (Don't use a food processor; it will puree the
mushrooms too fine.)

5. Add the cayenne or pepper flakes, peppercorns, allspice, cloves,
mace, nutmeg, bay leaves, and ginger. Crush the shallots and garlic and
add them to the kettle. Turn on the heat to medium. Bring the mixture to
a boil, reduce the heat to a simmer, and cook uncovered for about 45
minutes, until the ketchup is fragrant and somewhat reduced. Turn off
the heat and let it cool completely.

6. Strain the mixture through a fine wire sieve into a measuring cup,
pressing hard to get all the liquid extracted. Discard the solids. Wipe
out the kettle, then measure the juice and return it to the kettle. If
there is more than 1 3/4 cups, bring it back to a brisk boil and reduce
it to that amount. Add the vinegar and wine, then reduce the heat to
medium. Let the ketchup simmer gently for about 5 minutes more. Turn off
the heat and pour it, while still hot, into a sterilized heatproof jar
or bottle.

7. Seal the jar or bottle and let it cool, then refrigerate it.
Stored in the refrigerator, it will keep for several months.

Makes 16 ounces (1 pint)

NOTES: This recipe sounds time-consuming, but actually it is not. I
estimate that, all totaled, only about three-quarters of an hour of my
time is required. The rest of the time (steeping, simmering, etc.) is
pretty much unattended.

On the ingredients: Too much salt will make the mixture coarse and
banal, not enough will invite spoilage, so be judicious. Many English
recipes specify white wine rather than red, which makes a distinct
difference in flavor. If you elect to substitute it, also use white wine
vinegar. As to the mushrooms: remember that early cooks used only wild
mushrooms. If you can get wild mushrooms, please feel free to use. The
little white button mushrooms from the supermarket are lost in this
strongly flavored sauce unless you combine them, as Bill Neal suggested,
with dried Boletus edulis as outlined here. All the old recipes used
allspice and ginger; most Southern recipes included cayenne and either
nutmeg or mace and, occasionally, both. Less frequently used were black
pepper, cloves, shallots, and garlic, though they were usual in
eighteenth-century English recipes. --- This recipe comes from Classical
Southern Cooking by Damon Lee Fowler.

"Cookie Cutter" > wrote in message
...
> Here is a recipe for Mushroom Ketchup using American measurements.
> I haven't tried it myself but all these posts have inspired me to give
> it a try. The recipe does not give an amount for the vinegar -- I think
> that must be a typo -- so I guess the best approach is to add vinegar
> little by little until the desired piquancy is achieved.
>
> BTW, someone in another thread was talking about early catsups
> in terms of condiments. My impression from reading old cookbooks
> is that they were used to flavor sauces and gravies. I didn't think
> they made it to the table for individual diners to use as condiments.
> Anyone think otherwise?
>
>
A brief history of ketchup

A look at the history of ketchup From its
beginning as a fish sauce in China, to the sweet tomato version we love
today.
Nearly everyone likes ketchup, even if what they like to put it on seems
odd-Nixon covered his cottage cheese with it, the Japanese eat it on rice,
and one ice cream manufacturer allegedly once tried a ketchup ice cream. But
how did this condiment, by some estimates owned by 97% of US households,
become America's favorite accompaniment to the classic hamburger and fries?


In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
sauce called 'ketsiap' from China. In this version, it was more related to
soy or oyster sauce than the sweet, vinegary substance we call ketchup
today. Variations in both the name and the ingredients quickly developed.
British alternatives included mushrooms (the favorite), anchovies, oysters,
and walnuts. In 1690 the word 'catchup' appeared in print in reference to
this sauce, and in 1711 'ketchup'.


The first ketchup recipe was printed in 1727 in Elizabeth Smith's The
Compleat Housewife, and called for anchovies, shallots, vinegar, white wine,
sweet spices (cloves, ginger, mace, nutmeg), pepper, and lemon peel.
Eighty-five years later the first tomato ketchup recipe was published in
Nova Scotia by American ex-pat James Mease, which he often refers to as
'love apple' ketchup-he attempts to give it more cachet by stating that this
variation is influenced by French cooking, although there is no proof of it.


Recipes continued to appear periodically, featuring mushrooms in Britain and
tomatoes in the United States. A New England Farmer offered it for sale in
1830 in bottles, and priced from 33 to 50 cents. In 1837, Americans selling
ketchup in Britain were encouraged to rename it 'tomato chutney' in order to
draw attention to the differences between their product and the mushroom
ketchup popular in Britain. In addition to the difference in ingredients,
the British version also differed in texture, being nearly transparent and
very thin in consistency.


Ketchup was sold nationwide in the US by 1837 thanks to the hard work of
Jonas Yerkes, who sold the product in quart and pint bottles. He used the
refuse of tomato canning-skins, cores, green tomatoes, and lots of sugar and
vinegar. Lots of other small companies followed suit-by 1900 there were 100
manufacturers of ketchup. The big success came in 1872 when HJ Heinz added
ketchup to his line of pickled products and introduced it at the
Philadelphia fair. The Heinz formula has not changed since, and has become
the standard by which other ketchups are rated.


In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color. Others
made the condiment from concentrated tomato pulp in the off-season, which
they stored in questionable circumstances. This debate continued until the
1900s, when the Pure Food Act put strict limits on food manufacturers.
(Today's FDA has very strict guidelines on what even constitutes ketchup,
specifying the spices that must be used, as well as the thickness of the end
result.)


So, what's in a name? Variations such as catsup, catchup, katsup, and others
abounded alongside 'ketchup'. However, when the Reagan administration
briefly decided to count ketchup as a vegetable in 1981, Del Monte Catsup
found itself out of the loop due to their spelling-they permanently changed
to 'ketchup', but by then public outcry had forced a reversal of
administration policy. Ever since, though, you'll be hard-pressed to find a
bottle from any manufacturer labeled anything other than 'ketchup'.


Although it frequently graces such foods as fries and greasy burgers,
ketchup itself has a moderate health benefit, as it contains lycopene, an
antioxidant associated with decreased cancer risk. (Unlikely that it's
enough to cancel out the negative effects of the fries, though.)

"Cookie Cutter" > wrote in message
...
> Here is a recipe for Mushroom Ketchup using American measurements.
> I haven't tried it myself but all these posts have inspired me to give
> it a try. The recipe does not give an amount for the vinegar -- I think
> that must be a typo -- so I guess the best approach is to add vinegar
> little by little until the desired piquancy is achieved.
>
> BTW, someone in another thread was talking about early catsups
> in terms of condiments. My impression from reading old cookbooks
> is that they were used to flavor sauces and gravies. I didn't think
> they made it to the table for individual diners to use as condiments.
> Anyone think otherwise?
>
>
A brief history of ketchup

A look at the history of ketchup From its
beginning as a fish sauce in China, to the sweet tomato version we love
today.
Nearly everyone likes ketchup, even if what they like to put it on seems
odd-Nixon covered his cottage cheese with it, the Japanese eat it on rice,
and one ice cream manufacturer allegedly once tried a ketchup ice cream. But
how did this condiment, by some estimates owned by 97% of US households,
become America's favorite accompaniment to the classic hamburger and fries?


In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
sauce called 'ketsiap' from China. In this version, it was more related to
soy or oyster sauce than the sweet, vinegary substance we call ketchup
today. Variations in both the name and the ingredients quickly developed.
British alternatives included mushrooms (the favorite), anchovies, oysters,
and walnuts. In 1690 the word 'catchup' appeared in print in reference to
this sauce, and in 1711 'ketchup'.


The first ketchup recipe was printed in 1727 in Elizabeth Smith's The
Compleat Housewife, and called for anchovies, shallots, vinegar, white wine,
sweet spices (cloves, ginger, mace, nutmeg), pepper, and lemon peel.
Eighty-five years later the first tomato ketchup recipe was published in
Nova Scotia by American ex-pat James Mease, which he often refers to as
'love apple' ketchup-he attempts to give it more cachet by stating that this
variation is influenced by French cooking, although there is no proof of it.


Recipes continued to appear periodically, featuring mushrooms in Britain and
tomatoes in the United States. A New England Farmer offered it for sale in
1830 in bottles, and priced from 33 to 50 cents. In 1837, Americans selling
ketchup in Britain were encouraged to rename it 'tomato chutney' in order to
draw attention to the differences between their product and the mushroom
ketchup popular in Britain. In addition to the difference in ingredients,
the British version also differed in texture, being nearly transparent and
very thin in consistency.


Ketchup was sold nationwide in the US by 1837 thanks to the hard work of
Jonas Yerkes, who sold the product in quart and pint bottles. He used the
refuse of tomato canning-skins, cores, green tomatoes, and lots of sugar and
vinegar. Lots of other small companies followed suit-by 1900 there were 100
manufacturers of ketchup. The big success came in 1872 when HJ Heinz added
ketchup to his line of pickled products and introduced it at the
Philadelphia fair. The Heinz formula has not changed since, and has become
the standard by which other ketchups are rated.


In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color. Others
made the condiment from concentrated tomato pulp in the off-season, which
they stored in questionable circumstances. This debate continued until the
1900s, when the Pure Food Act put strict limits on food manufacturers.
(Today's FDA has very strict guidelines on what even constitutes ketchup,
specifying the spices that must be used, as well as the thickness of the end
result.)


So, what's in a name? Variations such as catsup, catchup, katsup, and others
abounded alongside 'ketchup'. However, when the Reagan administration
briefly decided to count ketchup as a vegetable in 1981, Del Monte Catsup
found itself out of the loop due to their spelling-they permanently changed
to 'ketchup', but by then public outcry had forced a reversal of
administration policy. Ever since, though, you'll be hard-pressed to find a
bottle from any manufacturer labeled anything other than 'ketchup'.


Although it frequently graces such foods as fries and greasy burgers,
ketchup itself has a moderate health benefit, as it contains lycopene, an
antioxidant associated with decreased cancer risk. (Unlikely that it's
enough to cancel out the negative effects of the fries, though.)

"Cookie Cutter" > wrote in message
...
> Here is a recipe for Mushroom Ketchup using American measurements.
> I haven't tried it myself but all these posts have inspired me to give
> it a try. The recipe does not give an amount for the vinegar -- I think
> that must be a typo -- so I guess the best approach is to add vinegar
> little by little until the desired piquancy is achieved.
>
> BTW, someone in another thread was talking about early catsups
> in terms of condiments. My impression from reading old cookbooks
> is that they were used to flavor sauces and gravies. I didn't think
> they made it to the table for individual diners to use as condiments.
> Anyone think otherwise?
>
>
A brief history of ketchup

A look at the history of ketchup From its
beginning as a fish sauce in China, to the sweet tomato version we love
today.
Nearly everyone likes ketchup, even if what they like to put it on seems
odd-Nixon covered his cottage cheese with it, the Japanese eat it on rice,
and one ice cream manufacturer allegedly once tried a ketchup ice cream. But
how did this condiment, by some estimates owned by 97% of US households,
become America's favorite accompaniment to the classic hamburger and fries?


In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
sauce called 'ketsiap' from China. In this version, it was more related to
soy or oyster sauce than the sweet, vinegary substance we call ketchup
today. Variations in both the name and the ingredients quickly developed.
British alternatives included mushrooms (the favorite), anchovies, oysters,
and walnuts. In 1690 the word 'catchup' appeared in print in reference to
this sauce, and in 1711 'ketchup'.


The first ketchup recipe was printed in 1727 in Elizabeth Smith's The
Compleat Housewife, and called for anchovies, shallots, vinegar, white wine,
sweet spices (cloves, ginger, mace, nutmeg), pepper, and lemon peel.
Eighty-five years later the first tomato ketchup recipe was published in
Nova Scotia by American ex-pat James Mease, which he often refers to as
'love apple' ketchup-he attempts to give it more cachet by stating that this
variation is influenced by French cooking, although there is no proof of it.


Recipes continued to appear periodically, featuring mushrooms in Britain and
tomatoes in the United States. A New England Farmer offered it for sale in
1830 in bottles, and priced from 33 to 50 cents. In 1837, Americans selling
ketchup in Britain were encouraged to rename it 'tomato chutney' in order to
draw attention to the differences between their product and the mushroom
ketchup popular in Britain. In addition to the difference in ingredients,
the British version also differed in texture, being nearly transparent and
very thin in consistency.


Ketchup was sold nationwide in the US by 1837 thanks to the hard work of
Jonas Yerkes, who sold the product in quart and pint bottles. He used the
refuse of tomato canning-skins, cores, green tomatoes, and lots of sugar and
vinegar. Lots of other small companies followed suit-by 1900 there were 100
manufacturers of ketchup. The big success came in 1872 when HJ Heinz added
ketchup to his line of pickled products and introduced it at the
Philadelphia fair. The Heinz formula has not changed since, and has become
the standard by which other ketchups are rated.


In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color. Others
made the condiment from concentrated tomato pulp in the off-season, which
they stored in questionable circumstances. This debate continued until the
1900s, when the Pure Food Act put strict limits on food manufacturers.
(Today's FDA has very strict guidelines on what even constitutes ketchup,
specifying the spices that must be used, as well as the thickness of the end
result.)


So, what's in a name? Variations such as catsup, catchup, katsup, and others
abounded alongside 'ketchup'. However, when the Reagan administration
briefly decided to count ketchup as a vegetable in 1981, Del Monte Catsup
found itself out of the loop due to their spelling-they permanently changed
to 'ketchup', but by then public outcry had forced a reversal of
administration policy. Ever since, though, you'll be hard-pressed to find a
bottle from any manufacturer labeled anything other than 'ketchup'.


Although it frequently graces such foods as fries and greasy burgers,
ketchup itself has a moderate health benefit, as it contains lycopene, an
antioxidant associated with decreased cancer risk. (Unlikely that it's
enough to cancel out the negative effects of the fries, though.)

>
>
>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
>sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.

Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled fish sauce
from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.

In this version, it was more related to
>soy or oyster sauce than the sweet, vinegary substance we call ketchup
>today. Variations in both the name and the ingredients quickly developed.
>British alternatives included mushrooms (the favorite), anchovies, oysters,
>and walnuts. In 1690 the word 'catchup' appeared in print in reference to
>this sauce, and in 1711 'ketchup'.
>

The work "catch-up" first appeared in print in 1682; "ketchup" in 1682.

>
>The first ketchup recipe was printed in 1727 in Elizabeth Smith's The
>Compleat Housewife,

No evidence for E. Smith's first name being "Elizabeth."

>Eighty-five years later the first tomato ketchup recipe was published in
>Nova Scotia by American ex-pat James Mease, which he often refers to as
>'love apple' ketchup-he attempts to give it more cachet by stating that this
>variation is influenced by French cooking, although there is no proof of it.

Not true. James Mease was an American who had nothing to do with Nova Scotia.
There is nothing "French" about his recipe, and Mease made no such claim.

>
>
>Recipes continued to appear periodically, featuring mushrooms in Britain and
>tomatoes in the United States.

Tomato, mushroom, etc. ketchup recipes were published both in the US and in
England until the early 20th century.


>
>Ketchup was sold nationwide in the US by 1837 thanks to the hard work of
>Jonas Yerkes, who sold the product in quart and pint bottles.


Yerkes hadn't even been born in 1837, so I don't think we can thank him for his
work at that time.

He used the
>refuse of tomato canning-skins, cores, green tomatoes, and lots of sugar and
>vinegar. Lots of other small companies followed suit-by 1900 there were 100
>manufacturers of ketchup. The big success came in 1872 when HJ Heinz added
>ketchup to his line of pickled products and introduced it at the
>Philadelphia fair.

This is absolutely false. Heinz didn't sell ketchup in 1872, and his company
went broke in 1875. It did not display anything at the Philadelphia Centennial
Fair in 1876.


The Heinz formula has not changed since, >

This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it ends up a
ruddy brown, thin product.

>
>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
>practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color.

No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime thereafter for
decades.


Who makes up this stuff?

Andy Smith

>
>
>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
>sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.

Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled fish sauce
from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.

In this version, it was more related to
>soy or oyster sauce than the sweet, vinegary substance we call ketchup
>today. Variations in both the name and the ingredients quickly developed.
>British alternatives included mushrooms (the favorite), anchovies, oysters,
>and walnuts. In 1690 the word 'catchup' appeared in print in reference to
>this sauce, and in 1711 'ketchup'.
>

The work "catch-up" first appeared in print in 1682; "ketchup" in 1682.

>
>The first ketchup recipe was printed in 1727 in Elizabeth Smith's The
>Compleat Housewife,

No evidence for E. Smith's first name being "Elizabeth."

>Eighty-five years later the first tomato ketchup recipe was published in
>Nova Scotia by American ex-pat James Mease, which he often refers to as
>'love apple' ketchup-he attempts to give it more cachet by stating that this
>variation is influenced by French cooking, although there is no proof of it.

Not true. James Mease was an American who had nothing to do with Nova Scotia.
There is nothing "French" about his recipe, and Mease made no such claim.

>
>
>Recipes continued to appear periodically, featuring mushrooms in Britain and
>tomatoes in the United States.

Tomato, mushroom, etc. ketchup recipes were published both in the US and in
England until the early 20th century.


>
>Ketchup was sold nationwide in the US by 1837 thanks to the hard work of
>Jonas Yerkes, who sold the product in quart and pint bottles.


Yerkes hadn't even been born in 1837, so I don't think we can thank him for his
work at that time.

He used the
>refuse of tomato canning-skins, cores, green tomatoes, and lots of sugar and
>vinegar. Lots of other small companies followed suit-by 1900 there were 100
>manufacturers of ketchup. The big success came in 1872 when HJ Heinz added
>ketchup to his line of pickled products and introduced it at the
>Philadelphia fair.

This is absolutely false. Heinz didn't sell ketchup in 1872, and his company
went broke in 1875. It did not display anything at the Philadelphia Centennial
Fair in 1876.


The Heinz formula has not changed since, >

This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it ends up a
ruddy brown, thin product.

>
>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
>practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color.

No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime thereafter for
decades.


Who makes up this stuff?

Andy Smith

ASmith1946 wrote:

>>
>>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
>>sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.
>
> Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled fish sauce
> from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.

<<< snip >>>

> The Heinz formula has not changed since, >
>
> This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it ends up a
> ruddy brown, thin product.
>
>>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
>>practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color.
>
> No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime thereafter for
> decades.
>
> Who makes up this stuff?

<LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
"honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
like that.

I'm totally serious.

Pastorio

ASmith1946 wrote:

>>
>>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled fish
>>sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.
>
> Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled fish sauce
> from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.

<<< snip >>>

> The Heinz formula has not changed since, >
>
> This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it ends up a
> ruddy brown, thin product.
>
>>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their unsanitary
>>practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red color.
>
> No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime thereafter for
> decades.
>
> Who makes up this stuff?

<LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
"honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
like that.

I'm totally serious.

Pastorio

Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...

> ASmith1946 wrote:
>
>>>
>>>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled
>>>fish sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.
>>
>> Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled
>> fish sauce from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.
>
> <<< snip >>>
>
>> The Heinz formula has not changed since, >
>>
>> This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it
>> ends up a ruddy brown, thin product.
>>
>>>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their
>>>unsanitary practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red
>>>color.
>>
>> No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime
>> thereafter for decades.
>>
>> Who makes up this stuff?
>
> <LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
> his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
> was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
> "honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
> like that.
>
> I'm totally serious.
>

More subjects and more ridiculous than even that noted cookbook author
whose name eveades me whose treatises on Western cooking methods and
recipes range from "just plumb silly" to "What was he smoking?".

TMO

Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...

> ASmith1946 wrote:
>
>>>
>>>In the 1600s Dutch and British seamen brought back a salty pickled
>>>fish sauce called 'ketsiap' from China.
>>
>> Not true. No evidence for Dutch or British seamen bring back pickled
>> fish sauce from China. Englishmen did bring it back from Indonesia.
>
> <<< snip >>>
>
>> The Heinz formula has not changed since, >
>>
>> This is pure BS. I have the original formula, and if you use it, it
>> ends up a ruddy brown, thin product.
>>
>>>In 1848 some ketchup manufacturers came under fire for their
>>>unsanitary practices-coal tar was frequently used to heighten the red
>>>color.
>>
>> No ketchup manufacture came "under fire in 1848, or anytime
>> thereafter for decades.
>>
>> Who makes up this stuff?
>
> <LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
> his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
> was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
> "honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
> like that.
>
> I'm totally serious.
>

More subjects and more ridiculous than even that noted cookbook author
whose name eveades me whose treatises on Western cooking methods and
recipes range from "just plumb silly" to "What was he smoking?".

TMO

Olivers wrote:

> Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
>>
>><LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
>>his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
>>was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
>>"honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
>>like that.
>>
>>I'm totally serious.
>>
> More subjects and more ridiculous than even that noted cookbook author
> whose name eveades me whose treatises on Western cooking methods and
> recipes range from "just plumb silly" to "What was he smoking?".

That would probably be George Herter and his truly astounding book
called "Bull Cook." I can't imagine he understood exactly how
appropriate the title is.

But there are certainly others out there.

"Cooking with Intuition" by Fred Mansbridge who calls himself "the
world's happiest psychic" is a trip down trip lane. Subtitled, "The
revolutionary way to become a gourmet cook OVERNIGHT [his caps]." A
be-sure-to-miss on any culinary adventure.

"New Native American Cooking" by Dale Carson who admits that "All the
recipes in this book are based on traditional dishes or have been
developed using traditional foods. Traditional foods, in my
interpretation are those that are either indigenous to the Americas
(corn, tomatoes, beans, squash, berries, maple, varieties of game
meats and fowl, fish and shellfish, etc.) or whose introductions were
readily embraced by indigenous peoples (apples, wheat and oat flours,
leavening, dairy products, eggs, etc.). [] This is a food enthusiast's
book of updated and original recipes that call for the delicious foods
gathered, hunted, fished, cultivated, cooked and enjoyed by native
peoples for centuries." They didn't eat eggs before Europeans showed
them? Original recipes that have been enjoyed for centuries... Right.
Like wild blueberry ice cream...

There are so, so many more like these...

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
>>
>><LOL> There's a guy in Secaucus, New Jersey (where else?) who makes
>>his living by writing stuff to bedevil people. Last one I saw from him
>>was the list of where words come from. That whole thing that included
>>"honeymoon" and "throwing out the baby with the bath water" and things
>>like that.
>>
>>I'm totally serious.
>>
> More subjects and more ridiculous than even that noted cookbook author
> whose name eveades me whose treatises on Western cooking methods and
> recipes range from "just plumb silly" to "What was he smoking?".

That would probably be George Herter and his truly astounding book
called "Bull Cook." I can't imagine he understood exactly how
appropriate the title is.

But there are certainly others out there.

"Cooking with Intuition" by Fred Mansbridge who calls himself "the
world's happiest psychic" is a trip down trip lane. Subtitled, "The
revolutionary way to become a gourmet cook OVERNIGHT [his caps]." A
be-sure-to-miss on any culinary adventure.

"New Native American Cooking" by Dale Carson who admits that "All the
recipes in this book are based on traditional dishes or have been
developed using traditional foods. Traditional foods, in my
interpretation are those that are either indigenous to the Americas
(corn, tomatoes, beans, squash, berries, maple, varieties of game
meats and fowl, fish and shellfish, etc.) or whose introductions were
readily embraced by indigenous peoples (apples, wheat and oat flours,
leavening, dairy products, eggs, etc.). [] This is a food enthusiast's
book of updated and original recipes that call for the delicious foods
gathered, hunted, fished, cultivated, cooked and enjoyed by native
peoples for centuries." They didn't eat eggs before Europeans showed
them? Original recipes that have been enjoyed for centuries... Right.
Like wild blueberry ice cream...

There are so, so many more like these...

Pastorio

Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
... Right.
> Like wild blueberry ice cream...
>
> There are so, so many more like these...
>
That's no "boil in a bag" Pueblo basket, Bob. That's a home ice cream
freezer...

The little basket with the cream and eggs goes inside, then the snow and
the some of that gypsum salt from down on the Pecos around them. Twirl it
around your head forty times, and it's ice cream. Next year , if the bees
will cooperate, we can make it taste better, and if the shaman Looks Like
Puke makes it back from his pilgrimage to he cenotes of the Yucatan, maybe
we'll have some vanilla beans to add.

Meanwhile, scrape the skin off some more of them peaches, Little Bird With
Big Butt.

TMO

Next you'll be showing us one of the PreColumbian deep fat fryers for
making "Indian Fry Bread".

Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
... Right.
> Like wild blueberry ice cream...
>
> There are so, so many more like these...
>
That's no "boil in a bag" Pueblo basket, Bob. That's a home ice cream
freezer...

The little basket with the cream and eggs goes inside, then the snow and
the some of that gypsum salt from down on the Pecos around them. Twirl it
around your head forty times, and it's ice cream. Next year , if the bees
will cooperate, we can make it taste better, and if the shaman Looks Like
Puke makes it back from his pilgrimage to he cenotes of the Yucatan, maybe
we'll have some vanilla beans to add.

Meanwhile, scrape the skin off some more of them peaches, Little Bird With
Big Butt.

TMO

Next you'll be showing us one of the PreColumbian deep fat fryers for
making "Indian Fry Bread".

Olivers wrote:

> Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
> ... Right.
>
>>Like wild blueberry ice cream...
>>
>>There are so, so many more like these...
>>
> That's no "boil in a bag" Pueblo basket, Bob. That's a home ice cream
> freezer...
>
> The little basket with the cream and eggs goes inside, then the snow and
> the some of that gypsum salt from down on the Pecos around them. Twirl it
> around your head forty times, and it's ice cream. Next year, if the bees
> will cooperate, we can make it taste better, and if the shaman Looks Like
> Puke makes it back from his pilgrimage to the cenotes of the Yucatan, maybe
> we'll have some vanilla beans to add.
>
> Meanwhile, scrape the skin off some more of them peaches, Little Bird With
> Big Butt.
>
> TMO
>
> Next you'll be showing us one of the PreColumbian deep fat fryers for
> making "Indian Fry Bread".

Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
xocholotl-chip cookies.

Yummy.

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Bob (this one) extrapolated from data available...
> ... Right.
>
>>Like wild blueberry ice cream...
>>
>>There are so, so many more like these...
>>
> That's no "boil in a bag" Pueblo basket, Bob. That's a home ice cream
> freezer...
>
> The little basket with the cream and eggs goes inside, then the snow and
> the some of that gypsum salt from down on the Pecos around them. Twirl it
> around your head forty times, and it's ice cream. Next year, if the bees
> will cooperate, we can make it taste better, and if the shaman Looks Like
> Puke makes it back from his pilgrimage to the cenotes of the Yucatan, maybe
> we'll have some vanilla beans to add.
>
> Meanwhile, scrape the skin off some more of them peaches, Little Bird With
> Big Butt.
>
> TMO
>
> Next you'll be showing us one of the PreColumbian deep fat fryers for
> making "Indian Fry Bread".

Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
xocholotl-chip cookies.

Yummy.

Pastorio

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:


>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>
>Yummy.
>
>Pastorio

I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
them, of course.)


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:


>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>
>Yummy.
>
>Pastorio

I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
them, of course.)


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>>
>>Yummy.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
> them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
> them, of course.)

Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."

According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
whole day in the potty.

Pastorio

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sat, 31 Jul 2004 20:25:37 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Had some Pre-Columbian coffee a little while ago. Along with some
>>xocholotl-chip cookies.
>>
>>Yummy.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
> I know someone who makes chocolotl chip cookies. She adds cayenne to
> them. (She doesn't pretend that there is anything historical about
> them, of course.)

Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."

According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
whole day in the potty.

Pastorio

"Bob (this one)" > wrote

> According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they
enjoyed often
> included hot peppers of one sort or another and was
considered an
> aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma
reportedly
> drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or
he spent his
> whole day in the potty.

This imparts a whole new meaning to "Montezuma's Revenge",
an affliction that besets NordAmericanos visiting Mexico for
the first time.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

"Bob (this one)" > wrote

> According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they
enjoyed often
> included hot peppers of one sort or another and was
considered an
> aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma
reportedly
> drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or
he spent his
> whole day in the potty.

This imparts a whole new meaning to "Montezuma's Revenge",
an affliction that besets NordAmericanos visiting Mexico for
the first time.

--
Bob
Kanyak's Doghouse
http://www.kanyak.com

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>
>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>whole day in the potty.
>
>Pastorio

The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
wrote:

>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>
>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>whole day in the potty.
>
>Pastorio

The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm


Robin Carroll-Mann
"Mostly Harmless" -- Douglas Adams
To email me, remove the fish

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>>
>>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>>whole day in the potty.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
> about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
> Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
> chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm

Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.

It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.

All in the interests of science...

Pastorio

Robin Carroll-Mann wrote:

> On Sun, 01 Aug 2004 15:41:00 -0400, "Bob (this one)" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Gary Jennings (who wrote the novel "Aztec" and others about them) was
>>a friend and a very knowledgeable foodie. He researched the background
>>for those novels for 8 years. Whew. How thorough can you get? That's
>>where I got that spelling for chocolate. The "x" is pronounced like "sh."
>>
>>According to him, the crude (unconched) chocolate they enjoyed often
>>included hot peppers of one sort or another and was considered an
>>aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty. Moctezuma reportedly
>>drank 50 cups of it a day. I hope they were small cups or he spent his
>>whole day in the potty.
>>
>>Pastorio
>
>
> The part about the hot peppers is true. Father Jose de Acosta wrote
> about chocolate in his 1590 book, _Historia Natural y Moral de las
> Indias_. He said "They are in the habit of adding spices and a lot of
> chili" (usan echarle especias y mucho chili).
> http://www.cervantesvirtual.com/serv...4/p0000002.htm

Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.

It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.

All in the interests of science...

Pastorio

>>> [Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>> was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>> Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
> Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
> chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
> more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
> likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
> foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
> It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
> to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
> no concentrated sweeteners according to him.

Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
would any grit come from that way?

I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
to put up with poor-quality anything. Particularly when there was
a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

========> Email to "j-c" at this site; email to "bogus" will bounce <========
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
<http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html> food intolerance data & recipes,
Mac logic fonts, Scots traditional music files and CD-ROMs of Scottish music.

>
>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.


Bob:

I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
froth.

Andy Smith

>
>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.


Bob:

I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
froth.

Andy Smith

Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
the Bill of Fare.

Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole

Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
quite horchata, but....

TMo

Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
the Bill of Fare.

Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole

Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
quite horchata, but....

TMo

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

bogus address wrote:

>>>>[Aztec chocolate] often included hot peppers of one sort or another and
>>>>was considered an aphrodisiac. The Aztecs reserved it for royalty.
>>>>Moctezuma reportedly drank 50 cups of it a day.
>>
>>Gary and I made some to see what it would be like. We used bittersweet
>>chocolate, poor quality countryside Mexican stuff he brought back, to
>>more closely approximate what they would have had. It was gritty, but
>>likely not as much so as the original. We whisked it into hot water,
>>foaming it up, adding tiny snippets of chile de arbol. No sugar.
>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him.
>
>
> Wouldn't the Aztecs have made it directly from cocoa pods? Where
> would any grit come from that way?

Cocoa pods are processed before they become chocolate. Then they're
ground. The grinding process didn't make a smooth result. It wasn't
until industrial processes were applied that the particles were made
small enough not to be noticeable.

> I doubt the emperor of a country with a few million subjects needed
> to put up with poor-quality anything.

It wasn't seen as poor quality. It was the only quality available.

> Particularly when there was
> a steady demand for hundreds of human sacrifice victims every year.

The connection escapes me.

Pastorio

ASmith1946 wrote:

>>It was awful *and* it burned. We didn't know exactly how much pepper
>>to add. Extremely bitter, gritty, astringent and hot. The Aztecs had
>>no concentrated sweeteners according to him. We decided it was much
>>improved by the addition of a fair bit of Kahlua.
>
> Bob:
>
> I don't believe that Aztecs "drank" chocolate-- they consumed the "foam"
> produced by constantly pouring the mixture back and forth between containers.

I've read that, Andy.

Gary brought back a kind of whisk that he said was what was used to
make a hot water based beverage that was to be entirely consumed. He
got it in the back country somewhere and was told that it was the
"traditional" way. Could be a tradition that went all the way back to,
oh, last Wednesday. Quien sabe?

The whisk was a tree branch the end of which had been pounded (or
something) to break apart the fibers. It looked like Don King's hair.
Piece of chocolate in a mug, hot water (with or without finely minced
chile) and whisk away until your arm was the size of
Schwartzenegger's. It frothed. It's likely the predecessor of the
molinillo used in making modern Mexican-style hot chocolate.

It's, of course, entirely possible that there was either some fakelore
or mistaken understanding going on.

> And Aztecs did have sweeteners-- honey and vanilla, for instance, but there is
> no evidence that these were ingredients employed in their making chocolate
> froth.

I'll give you honey, but vanilla is a stretch for being a sweetener.

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
> butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
> back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
> earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
> versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
> pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
> bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
> the Bill of Fare.
>
> Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole
>
> Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
> volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
> morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
> try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
> quite horchata, but....

We gave up combining it with anything after we tried the Kahlua. I think.

Pastorio

Olivers wrote:

> Of course, whatever its spelling or transliteration, and those clerics did
> butcher Nuahatl to Spanish pretty badly, being pretty confused about "X"
> back then, chocolate still appears in one of what must have been its
> earliest venues, combined with chiles and other incgredients in several
> versions of mole, most commonly served with turkey or chicken, and likely
> pretty close to what must have been served to upper crust Azrecs (when a
> bit of obsidian-sliced Tarascan captive/hostage/sacrifical victim wasn't on
> the Bill of Fare.
>
> Hmmmm.... Mayan Maiden Mole
>
> Given no metal with which to convert chocolate into a smooth paste, the
> volcanic grit from a lot of metate mashing may have made Moctezuma's
> morning chocolate a little gritty. As for sweetener, did you and Jennings
> try it in atole, the corn gruel/beverage which hasa vague sweetness, not
> quite horchata, but....

We gave up combining it with anything after we tried the Kahlua. I think.

Pastorio