Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the Spanish in
Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory of the Canary
Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.

Thanks in advance

"Gunner" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
> referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
> Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the Spanish
> in Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory of the
> Canary Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.
>

Familiar with the use of Cumin/comino in TexMex cookery, especially its
lavish addition to the traditionally San Antonio chile/chili con carne
recipes, I espouse that view. Of course, cumin's use on the Mediterranean
littoral must have been widespread. One of the Maltese "archipelago" is
"Comino", and the spice certainly shows up in Middle Eastern cuisines.

I suspect the answer is that it took all three introductions, but would have
"stuck" with any one....(and certainly "jerk" seasoning seems Asian based to
me).

The widespread use of cilantro in many of Mexico's regional cuisiane seems
harder to track. Chinese parsely/coriander via the manila Galleons or what?

TMO

Cilantro would have come from Southern Spain, and was adapted because it has
the same flavor as the native herb, recao. Recao has the additional quality
of keeping its flavor in stews. It is also known as culantro in some places.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"TOliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gunner" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
>> referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
>> Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the Spanish
>> in Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory of the
>> Canary Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.
>>
>
> Familiar with the use of Cumin/comino in TexMex cookery, especially its
> lavish addition to the traditionally San Antonio chile/chili con carne
> recipes, I espouse that view. Of course, cumin's use on the Mediterranean
> littoral must have been widespread. One of the Maltese "archipelago" is
> "Comino", and the spice certainly shows up in Middle Eastern cuisines.
>
> I suspect the answer is that it took all three introductions, but would
> have "stuck" with any one....(and certainly "jerk" seasoning seems Asian
> based to me).
>
> The widespread use of cilantro in many of Mexico's regional cuisiane seems
> harder to track. Chinese parsely/coriander via the manila Galleons or
> what?
>
> TMO
>

"Mark Zanger" > wrote...
> Cilantro would have come from Southern Spain, and was adapted because it
> has the same flavor as the native herb, recao.

I suspect that cilantro/coriander came to Southern Spain from Asia, probably
originally as the familiar "coriander" version, likely moving in during the
period of Islami expansion. Since it's use in Spain is most often the seed,
while in the New World it stands in for recao much harder to cultivate in
quantity or commercially (and now replaced often by cilantro in commercial
preparations
Recao/"Culantro" (closely related)

>has the additional quality of keeping its flavor in stews. It is also known
>as culantro in some places.
>
>
> --
> -Mark H. Zanger
> author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
> Students
> www.ethnicook.com
> www.historycook.com
>
> "TOliver" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Gunner" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
>>> referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
>>> Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the
>>> Spanish in Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory of
>>> the Canary Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.
>>>
>>
>> Familiar with the use of Cumin/comino in TexMex cookery, especially its
>> lavish addition to the traditionally San Antonio chile/chili con carne
>> recipes, I espouse that view. Of course, cumin's use on the
>> Mediterranean littoral must have been widespread. One of the Maltese
>> "archipelago" is "Comino", and the spice certainly shows up in Middle
>> Eastern cuisines.
>>
>> I suspect the answer is that it took all three introductions, but would
>> have "stuck" with any one....(and certainly "jerk" seasoning seems Asian
>> based to me).
>>
>> The widespread use of cilantro in many of Mexico's regional cuisiane
>> seems harder to track. Chinese parsely/coriander via the manila Galleons
>> or what?
>>
>> TMO
>>
>
>

Personally, I have think it Portuguese intro'd into the edges of SA then
back to the Caribe rather then the Spanish Manila Galleon trade.

But so far no one had hard evidence to show. So it is a still a crap shoot
as to what is real,.

If anyone can reference it please do so, meantime Mark I am certainly
interested in your work and will certainly look over your material.

Thank you.
d
"TOliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Zanger" > wrote...
>> Cilantro would have come from Southern Spain, and was adapted because it
>> has the same flavor as the native herb, recao.
>
> I suspect that cilantro/coriander came to Southern Spain from Asia,
> probably originally as the familiar "coriander" version, likely moving in
> during the period of Islami expansion. Since it's use in Spain is most
> often the seed, while in the New World it stands in for recao much harder
> to cultivate in quantity or commercially (and now replaced often by
> cilantro in commercial preparations
> Recao/"Culantro" (closely related)
>
>>has the additional quality of keeping its flavor in stews. It is also
>>known as culantro in some places.
>>
>>
>> --
>> -Mark H. Zanger
>> author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
>> Students
>> www.ethnicook.com
>> www.historycook.com
>>
>> "TOliver" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Gunner" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
>>>> referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
>>>> Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the
>>>> Spanish in Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory
>>>> of the Canary Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Familiar with the use of Cumin/comino in TexMex cookery, especially its
>>> lavish addition to the traditionally San Antonio chile/chili con carne
>>> recipes, I espouse that view. Of course, cumin's use on the
>>> Mediterranean littoral must have been widespread. One of the Maltese
>>> "archipelago" is "Comino", and the spice certainly shows up in Middle
>>> Eastern cuisines.
>>>
>>> I suspect the answer is that it took all three introductions, but would
>>> have "stuck" with any one....(and certainly "jerk" seasoning seems Asian
>>> based to me).
>>>
>>> The widespread use of cilantro in many of Mexico's regional cuisiane
>>> seems harder to track. Chinese parsely/coriander via the manila
>>> Galleons or what?
>>>
>>> TMO
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Mark,

You're right (I believe) about the plants being adopted because of
similar flavors (and, by extension, culinary uses).

The use of common names for plants is always confusing, but sometimes
provides some unintended insights. I'm including a small passage from
my herb book (The Herbalist in the Kitchen -- which will finally, after
years of fussing, be published in February) that deals with the word
"Culantro:"

"Another plant, called "Culantro de Montana," is unrelated. Its
botanical name is Peperomia acuminata. Both plants are used in the
Caribbean and probably share the name because they are used in similar
ways in cooking.

"Culantro" is a name used for Cilantro at times, but in the
Caribbean, it usually means Eryngium fœtidum, a plant that is more
closely related to Sea Holly (q.v.). "Culantro de Monte," is,
apparently, not the same plant as "Culantro de Montana" (q.v.) --
although the uses are similar. I suspect that the two plants received
the same names because of their proximity and their usage. The two
plants are used in the lands that are adjacent to the Gulf of Mexico. A
number of different cultures coexist in that relatively small area, but
most of them have been touched by the Iberian colonial presence. That
may have been just enough to carry the names and uses, but not the
plants themselves, from place to place."

A few examples of how these three botanically-unrelated plants have
shared common names:
Culantro de Montana, Peperomia acuminata,(native to Northern South
America)
Not the same as "Culantro de Monte" -- a name used in the
Caribbean, usually referring to Eryngium fœtidum, a plant that is more
closely related to Sea Holly. Yet another unrelated plant, Lippia
oreganoides, is has a name that is similar in meaning: "Culantro
Cimarron" (Venezuela).

Cilantro, Coriandrum sativum, (native to the Mediterranean Region) is
also known as: "Coentro" (Brazil and Portugal), "Culantro" (Mexico,
Puerto Rico and Spain), "Culantro de Monte" (Puerto Rico), and "Recao"
(Puerto Rico).

Culantro, Eryngium foetidum, (native to the New World Tropics) is known
as "Culantro de Monte" (Caribbean Islands), and "Racao" (Spain).

The permutations are fascinating -- I wish someone with more time (and
talent) than I have would pursue the matter more deeply.

(that's a hint, Mark...)

Gary

Mark Zanger wrote:
> Cilantro would have come from Southern Spain, and was adapted because it has
> the same flavor as the native herb, recao. Recao has the additional quality
> of keeping its flavor in stews. It is also known as culantro in some places.

The Spanish do not use a lot of cumin to this day, but Canarios allegedly
do. Others were settled somewhat later in Louisiana by the Spanish. I have
always suspected that a hand in the San Antonio chile pot was German, since
the Germans had a similar stew called goulash, which used caraway seeds.
Caraway and cumin are both kummel in German, so I wonder if the cumin didn't
get into the chili when someone was thinking about goulash?

Another vector is the Minorcan settlement in Florida in the late 18th
Century.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com
"Gunner" > wrote in message
...
> Does anyone have info or thoughts, preferably able to be verified or
> referenced , on when and how Cumin was introduced into the new world.
> Indentured East(Asian) Indians in the Caribbean, early 1800, the Spanish
> in Mexico, early to mid 1500s, or perhaps the Texican theory of the
> Canary Islands immigrants in San Antonio approx. 1720.
>
> Thanks in advance
>

Can't take the hint right away -- I have an interesting Latin American
dictionary downstairs I'll get at one of these days. I will say that in
Puerto Rico "recao" is *not* cilantro, it's recao, a long leafed native
plant. Also there is someplace where cilantro is "cilantrillo" and the other
plant of that flavor is "culantro."

I have an ethnobotanical dictionary by some druggy botanist from Harvard
down there, too.

Cumin, the actual subject here, is not real common anywhere in Latin America
that I can think of, except maybe Argentina.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
Mark,

You're right (I believe) about the plants being adopted because of
similar flavors (and, by extension, culinary uses).

The use of common names for plants is always confusing, but sometimes
provides some unintended insights. I'm including a small passage from
my herb book (The Herbalist in the Kitchen -- which will finally, after
years of fussing, be published in February) that deals with the word
"Culantro:"

"Another plant, called "Culantro de Montana," is unrelated. Its
botanical name is Peperomia acuminata. Both plants are used in the
Caribbean and probably share the name because they are used in similar
ways in cooking.

"Culantro" is a name used for Cilantro at times, but in the
Caribbean, it usually means Eryngium fotidum, a plant that is more
closely related to Sea Holly (q.v.). "Culantro de Monte," is,
apparently, not the same plant as "Culantro de Montana" (q.v.) --
although the uses are similar. I suspect that the two plants received
the same names because of their proximity and their usage. The two
plants are used in the lands that are adjacent to the Gulf of Mexico. A
number of different cultures coexist in that relatively small area, but
most of them have been touched by the Iberian colonial presence. That
may have been just enough to carry the names and uses, but not the
plants themselves, from place to place."

A few examples of how these three botanically-unrelated plants have
shared common names:
Culantro de Montana, Peperomia acuminata,(native to Northern South
America)
Not the same as "Culantro de Monte" -- a name used in the
Caribbean, usually referring to Eryngium fotidum, a plant that is more
closely related to Sea Holly. Yet another unrelated plant, Lippia
oreganoides, is has a name that is similar in meaning: "Culantro
Cimarron" (Venezuela).

Cilantro, Coriandrum sativum, (native to the Mediterranean Region) is
also known as: "Coentro" (Brazil and Portugal), "Culantro" (Mexico,
Puerto Rico and Spain), "Culantro de Monte" (Puerto Rico), and "Recao"
(Puerto Rico).

Culantro, Eryngium foetidum, (native to the New World Tropics) is known
as "Culantro de Monte" (Caribbean Islands), and "Racao" (Spain).

The permutations are fascinating -- I wish someone with more time (and
talent) than I have would pursue the matter more deeply.

(that's a hint, Mark...)

Gary

Mark Zanger wrote:
> Cilantro would have come from Southern Spain, and was adapted because it
> has
> the same flavor as the native herb, recao. Recao has the additional
> quality
> of keeping its flavor in stews. It is also known as culantro in some
> places.

"Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
. ..
> Can't take the hint right away -- I have an interesting Latin American
> dictionary downstairs I'll get at one of these days. I will say that in
> Puerto Rico "recao" is *not* cilantro, it's recao, a long leafed native
> plant. Also there is someplace where cilantro is "cilantrillo" and the
> other plant of that flavor is "culantro."
>
> I have an ethnobotanical dictionary by some druggy botanist from Harvard
> down there, too.
>
> Cumin, the actual subject here, is not real common anywhere in Latin
> America that I can think of, except maybe Argentina.
>
Cominos is quite common in the cuisine of Northern Mexico, and is a
consistent and substantial ingredient in the classic San Antonio (and
descendant "TexMex") versions of chili con carne, a dish apparently owing
something to the Cape Verdean Islanders who were the city's fist civilians.
I can't imagine cooking the style of Mexican foods most common without
comino seeds in the spice rack (toasted and ground fresh optimally).

No that's Canary Islanders. The old Cape Verdean population is in southern
New England. They don't use a lot of cumin, either.

Michael Dritchel wrote me off line with this idea: >>Is it possible that
there is some north African connection here?
Cumin is not uncommon in Moroccan cooking (eg, in tagines) as I
recall.<<

This is a very good idea, since there were Moroccans on many of the voyages
of discovery and some, notably hidden or open Jews, in the early
settlements. They were also represented in the early slave trade as slaves,
and there is a possible connection between them and the old mixed-race
Melungeon groups in the Appalachians (who don't especially cook with Cumin,
but do have some other odd retentions, such as eating "chocolate gravy" for
breakfast).

I think we have to find some contemporary dishes with cumin (besides San
Antonio Chili) and work them back.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com


"TOliver" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Can't take the hint right away -- I have an interesting Latin American
>> dictionary downstairs I'll get at one of these days. I will say that in
>> Puerto Rico "recao" is *not* cilantro, it's recao, a long leafed native
>> plant. Also there is someplace where cilantro is "cilantrillo" and the
>> other plant of that flavor is "culantro."
>>
>> I have an ethnobotanical dictionary by some druggy botanist from Harvard
>> down there, too.
>>
>> Cumin, the actual subject here, is not real common anywhere in Latin
>> America that I can think of, except maybe Argentina.
>>
> Cominos is quite common in the cuisine of Northern Mexico, and is a
> consistent and substantial ingredient in the classic San Antonio (and
> descendant "TexMex") versions of chili con carne, a dish apparently owing
> something to the Cape Verdean Islanders who were the city's fist
> civilians. I can't imagine cooking the style of Mexican foods most common
> without comino seeds in the spice rack (toasted and ground fresh
> optimally).
>

Hit the books on this, and Puerto Rico is where coriander leaf is sometimes
cUlantrillo, whereas the long leaf is both culantro, culantro del monte, and
recao -- as Gary mostly had it.

Recao, I learned is indeed the contraction of recado for "ration" meaning
the daily shopping one did for five or ten cents worth of a made up pile of
sofrito ingredients: a mild chile, a tomato, a bit of garlic, some cilantro,
some culantro. Then the term came to mean the culantro by itself, which is
why I always see it labeled as recao in the store.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
. ..
> Can't take the hint right away -- I have an interesting Latin American
> dictionary downstairs I'll get at one of these days. I will say that in
> Puerto Rico "recao" is *not* cilantro, it's recao, a long leafed native
> plant. Also there is someplace where cilantro is "cilantrillo" and the
> other plant of that flavor is "culantro."
>

So, going back to the original question, how the cumin get here, I propose
the case of one place in Latin America I've tasted a fair amount of cumin,
which is Peru. It's always in the marinade for anticuchos de corazon -- the
grilled skewers of beef heart sold in the street. And it also appears in the
recipe for pork adobo, similar to the Phillippine adobo and the Spanish
escabeche, except that in Peru cubes of pork are rubbed with spices and
achiote, then cooked in the pickle (vinegar would be part of the marinade
elsewhere). So both of these point to Iberia (via the technique of pickling
in vinegar, and the application to Eurasian meats) without ruling out the
Maghrebian influence. Peru has a small Afro-Peruvian community, mostly on
the coast, but no particular Morroccan or Arab presence until the 20th
century. It is certainly possible that these dishes have responded to a
recent influence, but more likely that their spicing goes back to the
Spanish colonial period.


--
-Mark H. Zanger
author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
Students
www.ethnicook.com
www.historycook.com

"Mark Zanger" > wrote in message
. ..
> So, going back to the original question, how the cumin get here, I propose
> the case of one place in Latin America I've tasted a fair amount of cumin,
> which is Peru. It's always in the marinade for anticuchos de corazon --
> the grilled skewers of beef heart sold in the street. And it also appears
> in the recipe for pork adobo, similar to the Phillippine adobo and the
> Spanish escabeche, except that in Peru cubes of pork are rubbed with
> spices and achiote, then cooked in the pickle (vinegar would be part of
> the marinade elsewhere). So both of these point to Iberia (via the
> technique of pickling in vinegar, and the application to Eurasian meats)
> without ruling out the Maghrebian influence. Peru has a small
> Afro-Peruvian community, mostly on the coast, but no particular Morroccan
> or Arab presence until the 20th century. It is certainly possible that
> these dishes have responded to a recent influence, but more likely that
> their spicing goes back to the Spanish colonial period.
>
>
> --
> -Mark H. Zanger
> author, The American History Cookbook, The American Ethnic Cookbook for
> Students
> www.ethnicook.com
> www.historycook.com
Rachel Laudan has perhaps the best answer to this question in this link:
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issu...connection.htm

Some random thoughts here. Perhaps this is the root of Chili (sic) thus
predating the Canary Island Land Grant theory of San Anton and supporting
the Navaho claim to inventing Chili before San Anton had it in the 1730s.
ABQ NM certainly dates from mid to late 1500s. Chili is a spiced dish of
meat( albeit a religious experience to some and thus this is considered
blasphemy) and yet there are many meat dishes with Chile and spices from
Mexico. The definition of Curry and Mole is relatively the same and there
are as many variants as there are people making and eating them. I can see
the many dishes sharing spices from the old and the new in New Spain.

The Culantro/Cilantro is not a issue worth time spent, the native Culantro
is very similar in taste and smell and Coriander( cilantro) seed probably
came over with the Cumin(o) as many interchanged it frequently with
Coriander. If not from the Spanish Moor link certainly the Philippinos
(Chinese?) from the Manila Galleons . But the Philippinos do not use a lot
of Chile and Cumin. The Muslim side of the Philippines will certainly not
have a Pork Adobo and their adobo is a vinegar marinade not a thick tomato
pasty one as the Mexican side seems to have so I discount the Manila link.
Cluantro is native and thus used but the Coriander seed was planted and
what was not used for seed spice, was used as a Culantro substitute.

>