I think Laudan is highly speculative and may be pushing too hard to
show an Islamic connection.

She begins by commenting that Octavio Paz noted a similarity between
curry and mole. India is a mixed nation in tems of religion and their
curries are reflected primarily in the cooking of Afghanistan. She
hops from India to the entire Islamic world - a vast area of diverse
climates, including some large arid deserts. Living in a desert
requires adaptation.

The northern part of Spain was not under Arab rule. In fact, the north
waged war with the Arab-ruled south. Andalusia was dominated by Arabs
and had a large population of Jewish people who co-existed so
peacefully with the Arabs that this is called the 'Golden Age of
Jewry.' By the time Columbus set sail, the Arabs were conquered and in
1492 - the exact year of Columbus voyage, their power was so weak that
the Jewish people were expelled from the country.

It is hard to believe that the people who brought much-loved pork to
Mexico were Islamic-influenced. Moreover, Cortes himself came from
Estremadura, not from Andalusia, and would have brought a taste of
other foods.

All food adapts, all food carries influences. Someitmes even good
scholars start with a bias and bend data into their viewpoint.

chipotle wrote:
> I think Laudan is highly speculative and may be pushing too hard to
> show an Islamic connection.

Ah, yes, but I love to speculate and to connect obscure ideas into a
larger theme of
"what if?"

> Andalusia was dominated by Arabs
> and had a large population of Jewish people who co-existed so
> peacefully with the Arabs that this is called the 'Golden Age of
> Jewry.' By the time Columbus set sail, the Arabs were conquered and in
> 1492 - the exact year of Columbus voyage, their power was so weak that
> the Jewish people were expelled from the country.

The Jews and Moors were given a choice. They could leave Spain, or they
could convert to Roman Catholicism, as did my Sephardic Jewish
ancestors and relatives.

The only problem was that they had to live un a microscope thereafter.
They could not be seen reading a Hebrew or Arabic text for fear of
being denounced to the Inquisition.

The Conversos, or so-called "New Christians" adapted the defense of
feigned illiteracy. And, after a time, my Converso ancestor was caught,
imprisoned, tortured, and fined.

He fled from Spain and went to France, where Jews were more welcome
than in Spain. But he converted to the Protestant religion. He became a
Huguenot, and that was a bad move, because the French religious
persections started.

As a heretic, he could not immigrate to any part of the Spanish empire.
His sons sailed for England, and then on to Maryland, where there was
religious tolerance. And, within a short time, they were eating pork
along with everybody else that ate meat.
>
> It is hard to believe that the people who brought much-loved pork to
> Mexico were Islamic-influenced. Moreover, Cortes himself came from
> Estremadura, not from Andalusia, and would have brought a taste of
> other foods.

The people of Estremadura were racially mixed, they were the
descendants of Greeks and Romans and Phoenicians and Jews and Moors
and people from all over the Mediterranean area.

James Michener wrote about the ethnic cleansing that took place in
Spain in the 16th century and said that many families of secret Jews
passed on their secretly-practiced religion to their children, just as
soon as the children were old enough to understand the danger of such
heresy in a Catholic country.

Michener said that there were many deathbed confessions where a father
whispered, "Somo Judeos" to his eldest son, hoping to pass the
tradition along.

I have been speculating over whether similar families of Muslims have
continued their
religious beliefs in secret. But it's hard to imagine that Muslims
could have kept secret the fact that they prayed five times a day.

And then the aspect of enforced or pretended illiteracy comes into
play. How would somebody pass on a culture and a religion from father
to son over centuries, without books?
>
> All food adapts, all food carries influences. Someitmes even good
> scholars start with a bias and bend data into their viewpoint.

And maybe the Middle Eastern culture does live on in Mexico, through
its cooking?

It is a tragic history. What kind of choice was that - become MY
religion or beat it!
Just anohter one of the Jewish diasporas which are plural not singular.

But I think Mexico had its own well-developed methiods - for example
the nixtamalization of maize is quite sophisticated. And those chiles
and more and more chiles were growing in the Americas. Rather than be
'influenced' at a later date, they had their own develped cuisine.
Of course, in come the Spanish and things change. It's always changing
though. Somhow all food is fusion food. The fact of the spice routes
teach us that in a way.

In the US, the first large wave of Italian immigrants were from Naples.
They established groceries. The next large immigration was from
Sicily and they shopped at the Neapolitan groceries, adapting their
cuisine which really is influenced by the Arab. So, in the US a lot
got lost until more recently when food history became popular and
people returned to Sicily and sdiscovered more.

Amazing and wonderful isn't it?

But I still think that she was reaching for it in her article. I think
she even attributed chocolate to the Spanish. Can't quite remember,
but there was something that stopped my eye when I read it.

"chipotle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I think Laudan is highly speculative and may be pushing too hard to
> show an Islamic connection.
>
> She begins by commenting that Octavio Paz noted a similarity between
--- cut for brevity ---

It is so nice, so great to have some serious research and sharing of
knowledge in this group.

I missed the OP, probably because he/she had been put on my kill list and
not removed. Maybe I should reconsider since it stimulated you into a
qualified response.

I'm wondering how many chile pods share pre-conquest heredities from India,
China, Africa... but then who cares? They are all great in one way or other!

"chipotle" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> It is a tragic history. What kind of choice was that - become MY
> religion or beat it!
> Just anohter one of the Jewish diasporas which are plural not singular.
>
> But I think Mexico had its own well-developed methiods - for example
> the nixtamalization of maize is quite sophisticated. And those chiles
> and more and more chiles were growing in the Americas. Rather than be
> 'influenced' at a later date, they had their own develped cuisine.
> Of course, in come the Spanish and things change. It's always changing
> though. Somhow all food is fusion food. The fact of the spice routes
> teach us that in a way.
>
> In the US, the first large wave of Italian immigrants were from Naples.
> They established groceries. The next large immigration was from
> Sicily and they shopped at the Neapolitan groceries, adapting their
> cuisine which really is influenced by the Arab. So, in the US a lot
> got lost until more recently when food history became popular and
> people returned to Sicily and sdiscovered more.
>
> Amazing and wonderful isn't it?
>
> But I still think that she was reaching for it in her article. I think
> she even attributed chocolate to the Spanish. Can't quite remember,
> but there was something that stopped my eye when I read it.

I do not see where she attributed Chocolate to the Spanish.

I have to say this is a good debate but I do not believe it possible to
present a lot of concrete info in a one page synopsis. but I do want to
address some points you make

Afghan influence on Indian Curry?
The golden era of the Islamic world reached from the Iberian Peninsula in
Europe and northern Africa through the Arabian Peninsula, Persia, India,
Indo-China and down to the Philippines. ( As a point aside, the largest
Muslim population is not the Middle East nor Persia but Indochina and the
Philippines.). I do not understand where this Afghan influence on Indian
Curry fits into the subject. A Library of Congress Country Studies states
"From the seventh through the ninth centuries, most inhabitants of what is
present-day Afghanistan, Pakistan, southern parts of the former Soviet
Union, and areas of northern India were converted to Sunni Islam" so it was
logical progressive flow from Persian, to the **stans, to India. The
Arabs controlled the East Indies spice trade until the Portugese took it
what about 1600 or so? As you say Fusion or evolution is the way of food
which is why I have my doubts about Chili, too many dishs are too similiar
for it to be "born" in Texas, the timeline does not fit.

"large deserts that require adaptation"

Chip, I have no clue how this fits in, nor how to address it..

"The northern part of Spain was not under Arab rule. In fact, the north
waged war with the Arab-ruled south".

Yes, but the Moors controlled the vast majority of the Iberian Peninsula
for what 800 years or so? The Moor Influence is still very evident in Spain
..

"Andalusia was dominated by Arabs and had a large population of Jewish
people who co-existed so
peacefully with the Arabs that this is called the 'Golden Age of Jewry.' "

Please see the term Millet and Dhimmi as Sharia legal principals, also note
that "Jewry" has nothing to do with the Ms Laudan's paper nor the spice
trade.

"By the time Columbus set sail, the Arabs were conquered and in
1492 - the exact year of Columbus voyage, "their power was so weak that the
Jewish people were expelled from the country".

Yes, The many Moors were expelled and The Jews were expelled in March 1492,
yet as mentioned large numbers stayed as conversos. GG that story was
pretty good. Yet Ms. Laudan is not talking about the Jews that were
expelled. Nor the Jewish influence that also remains to this day in parts of
Spain. As to the Moors I am sure in your research you did come across who
was the Navigator on the Nina which set sail on August 3rd 1492 voyage? So
they had not left yet.

"It is hard to believe that the people who brought much-loved pork to
Mexico were Islamic-influenced."

Again please see the terms Millet and Dhimmi to understand better how this
could be possible. The cook book, Culinaria Spain, Konemann 2004,
specifically talks about Castilla y Leon where the Christians ate stews of
Pork and the Jews and Arabs ate Lamb.

"Moreover, Cortez himself came from
Estremadura, not from Andalusia, and would have brought a taste of
other foods".

In general the military arm of any nation does not influence the foods of a
conquered nation, rather quite the reverse. Sheer supply and logistics
require local provisions to supply an army. That is the function of the
follow-on echelons. In this case the Clergy, The Carpenters, the Shepards,
the Millers, The various Smiths, those necessary to support an expanding
society.

I think you read into this a bit, she is not saying that Islamic influenced
persons brought pork to the Americas nor do I think she would have you
believe in on a specific date in 1519 Meso America was converted to eating
Moorish Influenced foods but as you say a fusion influenced progression.

"All food adapts, all food carries influences. Someitmes even good
scholars start with a bias and bend data into their viewpoint."

I fail to see how she bent data to support a presupposed theory. Look at
the architecture and mosaics, look at the foods rich with spices, that was
not standard European fare for the time. Where did black pepper, cilantro,
cumin, coriander, Canella, the pomegranate, the almond, saffron, rice and
many others herbs and spices used in in New Meso American cooking come
from? We can be sure they came from Arab Traders to the Islamic Caliphs to
southern Europe and hence Colombus's need to find a new route to keep the
flow of spices they they just lost.

So we are just debating by what route and when this Arab/Moorish influence
came to America.

"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
news
>
> "chipotle" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>> I think Laudan is highly speculative and may be pushing too hard to
>> show an Islamic connection.
>>
>> She begins by commenting that Octavio Paz noted a similarity between
> --- cut for brevity ---
>
> It is so nice, so great to have some serious research and sharing of
> knowledge in this group.
>
> I missed the OP, probably because he/she had been put on my kill list and
> not removed. Maybe I should reconsider since it stimulated you into a
> qualified response.
>
You didn't read it? cuz you killed me?
Then why did you respond with "no cumin south of the border"?

Which BTW I do not find to be true and even you give two examples here
recently; Birria and Lime Soup. I am sure there are many other recipes
using it as well to "never say never".

"Wayne Lundberg" > wrote in message
news
>

> I'm wondering how many chile pods share pre-conquest heredities from
> India,
> China, Africa... but then who cares? They are all great in one way or
> other!


Ok, I have to revisit this because it is still playing on my mind as
extremely incongruent. What are you saying here?