My 2 cents worth. Acetobacter is the critter that is responsible for
changing the alcohol to vinegar, and when making wine this is the
critter you want to avoid at all costs.

Surest way to make good vinegar is to buy a culture (mother) from
reputable vendor (homebrew supply stores carry it) or borrow a few
ounces from someone who has a culture going. The "Mother" is the most
disgusting looking thing you would ever see in your life, and it looks
obscene to say the least. There are different strains of
"acetobacter" that produce various flavors. I like Malt vinegar so
purchase a malt vinegar mother and use stale beer instead of wine.

You can make your own "mother" by putting single layer of very coarse
cheesecloth or screening over a jug of wine, and set it out on the
porch. Fruitflies, flies, other flying critters will come to try to
get into the bottle, but will be stopped by the screen. However, the
little "acetobacter" fall into the wine and start growing, as they
naturally populate the outside of the fruitfly and flies, and other
bugs.

The problem with this method is that although it works all the time,
you never know exactly which strainof the little bacterium or whatever
you are starting, although most always it will turn out OK. For a
particular flavor get a "mother" from a company specializing in
vinegars.

Commercial vinegar is made from Crude Oil, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER
drink vinegar made in a refinery (distilled white vinegar and most
commercial vinegars, flavored with laboratory chemicals).

Maybe someone from England can jump in here with more explicit
instructions, as they have some excellent Malt vinegars over there and
I have never been able to even come close to those with my
store-bought mothers. (a "Mother" would make the basis of a good
science fiction movie, as if you have ever seen one they are the stuff
mightmares are made of).

On a related subject,, I used to make sherry the way they do in
Europe, in an Estuffa (heated cabinet), and the yeast for this stuff
makes a "mother" also, and it makes a hard, crusty "mother" that is
just as obscene looking. I can't find the yeast anymore since Wine
Art went out of business many years ago (sherry flor yeast). The
homemade sherry was better than anything you could buy, could be made
out of just about anything (I used oranges), but it took some time to
enjoy.

Jim




On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:45:58 -0800, Reg > wrote:

>Peter Watson wrote:
>
>> On 4/1/07 10:21 AM, in article ,
>> "Goomba38" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>Thank you for your reply.
>>>Here is the recipe: Aceto di vino, from Giulliano Bugialli's "Foods of
>>>Naples and Campania"
>>>
>>>2 slices white bread, crusts removed
>>>4 cups dry red wine
>>>
>>>Put the bread in a glass jar, then pour the wine over it. Place a piece
>>>of cheesecloth over the top of the jar and set the jar aside in a
>>>cabinet or on a countertop away from direct sunlight.
>>>
>>>Let the jar rest for about 25 days. in this period of time the bread
>>>will turn very dark in color and become almost gelatinous. This is the
>>>so called mother of the wine vinegar. Carefully drain and filter the
>>>wine that has become vinegar into a bowl., then pour into a bottle. The
>>>vinegar is now ready to be used.
>>>
>>>You can add more wine to the jar containing the mother of the vinegar.
>>>This time the process of changing the wine into vinegar will be much
>>>faster, about 1 week.
>>
>> I think that you will need to use sour dough bread if it is available near
>> you, but thr recipe sounds great and I am going to try it.
>
>You don't need to use sourdough, or bread made with
>any specific yeast. There's no live cultures left in
>bread (as there is in, for example, yoghurt). It all
>dies off during baking.

"cbx" > wrote in message
...
> My 2 cents worth. Acetobacter is the critter that is responsible for
> changing the alcohol to vinegar, and when making wine this is the
> critter you want to avoid at all costs.
>
> Surest way to make good vinegar is to buy a culture (mother) from
> reputable vendor (homebrew supply stores carry it) or borrow a few
> ounces from someone who has a culture going. The "Mother" is the most
> disgusting looking thing you would ever see in your life, and it looks
> obscene to say the least. There are different strains of
> "acetobacter" that produce various flavors. I like Malt vinegar so
> purchase a malt vinegar mother and use stale beer instead of wine.
>
> You can make your own "mother" by putting single layer of very coarse
> cheesecloth or screening over a jug of wine, and set it out on the
> porch. Fruitflies, flies, other flying critters will come to try to
> get into the bottle, but will be stopped by the screen. However, the
> little "acetobacter" fall into the wine and start growing, as they
> naturally populate the outside of the fruitfly and flies, and other
> bugs.
>
> The problem with this method is that although it works all the time,
> you never know exactly which strainof the little bacterium or whatever
> you are starting, although most always it will turn out OK. For a
> particular flavor get a "mother" from a company specializing in
> vinegars.
>
> Commercial vinegar is made from Crude Oil, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER
> drink vinegar made in a refinery (distilled white vinegar and most
> commercial vinegars, flavored with laboratory chemicals).
>
> Maybe someone from England can jump in here with more explicit
> instructions, as they have some excellent Malt vinegars over there and
> I have never been able to even come close to those with my
> store-bought mothers. (a "Mother" would make the basis of a good
> science fiction movie, as if you have ever seen one they are the stuff
> mightmares are made of).
>
> On a related subject,, I used to make sherry the way they do in
> Europe, in an Estuffa (heated cabinet), and the yeast for this stuff
> makes a "mother" also, and it makes a hard, crusty "mother" that is
> just as obscene looking. I can't find the yeast anymore since Wine
> Art went out of business many years ago (sherry flor yeast). The
> homemade sherry was better than anything you could buy, could be made
> out of just about anything (I used oranges), but it took some time to
> enjoy.
>
> Jim
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:45:58 -0800, Reg > wrote:
>
>>Peter Watson wrote:
>>
>>> On 4/1/07 10:21 AM, in article
>>> ,
>>> "Goomba38" > wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>Thank you for your reply.
>>>>Here is the recipe: Aceto di vino, from Giulliano Bugialli's "Foods of
>>>>Naples and Campania"
>>>>
>>>>2 slices white bread, crusts removed
>>>>4 cups dry red wine
>>>>
>>>>Put the bread in a glass jar, then pour the wine over it. Place a piece
>>>>of cheesecloth over the top of the jar and set the jar aside in a
>>>>cabinet or on a countertop away from direct sunlight.
>>>>
>>>>Let the jar rest for about 25 days. in this period of time the bread
>>>>will turn very dark in color and become almost gelatinous. This is the
>>>>so called mother of the wine vinegar. Carefully drain and filter the
>>>>wine that has become vinegar into a bowl., then pour into a bottle. The
>>>>vinegar is now ready to be used.
>>>>
>>>>You can add more wine to the jar containing the mother of the vinegar.
>>>>This time the process of changing the wine into vinegar will be much
>>>>faster, about 1 week.
>>>
>>> I think that you will need to use sour dough bread if it is available
>>> near
>>> you, but thr recipe sounds great and I am going to try it.
>>
>>You don't need to use sourdough, or bread made with
>>any specific yeast. There's no live cultures left in
>>bread (as there is in, for example, yoghurt). It all
>>dies off during baking.
>

I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the directions
and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
vinegar and I don't know why. There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
read, which is where I got the idea for trying it....rec.crafts.brewing? or
....something winemaking? can't remember what the group was called...anyway,
check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some help..

Kathi

Kathi Jones wrote:
> "cbx" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>My 2 cents worth. Acetobacter is the critter that is responsible for
>>changing the alcohol to vinegar, and when making wine this is the
>>critter you want to avoid at all costs.
>>
>>Surest way to make good vinegar is to buy a culture (mother) from
>>reputable vendor (homebrew supply stores carry it) or borrow a few
>>ounces from someone who has a culture going. The "Mother" is the most
>>disgusting looking thing you would ever see in your life, and it looks
>>obscene to say the least. There are different strains of
>>"acetobacter" that produce various flavors. I like Malt vinegar so
>>purchase a malt vinegar mother and use stale beer instead of wine.
>>
>>You can make your own "mother" by putting single layer of very coarse
>>cheesecloth or screening over a jug of wine, and set it out on the
>>porch. Fruitflies, flies, other flying critters will come to try to
>>get into the bottle, but will be stopped by the screen. However, the
>>little "acetobacter" fall into the wine and start growing, as they
>>naturally populate the outside of the fruitfly and flies, and other
>>bugs.
>>
>>The problem with this method is that although it works all the time,
>>you never know exactly which strainof the little bacterium or whatever
>>you are starting, although most always it will turn out OK. For a
>>particular flavor get a "mother" from a company specializing in
>>vinegars.
>>
>>Commercial vinegar is made from Crude Oil, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER
>>drink vinegar made in a refinery (distilled white vinegar and most
>>commercial vinegars, flavored with laboratory chemicals).
>>
>>Maybe someone from England can jump in here with more explicit
>>instructions, as they have some excellent Malt vinegars over there and
>>I have never been able to even come close to those with my
>>store-bought mothers. (a "Mother" would make the basis of a good
>>science fiction movie, as if you have ever seen one they are the stuff
>>mightmares are made of).
>>
>>On a related subject,, I used to make sherry the way they do in
>>Europe, in an Estuffa (heated cabinet), and the yeast for this stuff
>>makes a "mother" also, and it makes a hard, crusty "mother" that is
>>just as obscene looking. I can't find the yeast anymore since Wine
>>Art went out of business many years ago (sherry flor yeast). The
>>homemade sherry was better than anything you could buy, could be made
>>out of just about anything (I used oranges), but it took some time to
>>enjoy.
>>
>>Jim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On Sat, 06 Jan 2007 01:45:58 -0800, Reg > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Peter Watson wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>On 4/1/07 10:21 AM, in article
,
>>>>"Goomba38" > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Thank you for your reply.
>>>>>Here is the recipe: Aceto di vino, from Giulliano Bugialli's "Foods of
>>>>>Naples and Campania"
>>>>>
>>>>>2 slices white bread, crusts removed
>>>>>4 cups dry red wine
>>>>>
>>>>>Put the bread in a glass jar, then pour the wine over it. Place a piece
>>>>>of cheesecloth over the top of the jar and set the jar aside in a
>>>>>cabinet or on a countertop away from direct sunlight.
>>>>>
>>>>>Let the jar rest for about 25 days. in this period of time the bread
>>>>>will turn very dark in color and become almost gelatinous. This is the
>>>>>so called mother of the wine vinegar. Carefully drain and filter the
>>>>>wine that has become vinegar into a bowl., then pour into a bottle. The
>>>>>vinegar is now ready to be used.
>>>>>
>>>>>You can add more wine to the jar containing the mother of the vinegar.
>>>>>This time the process of changing the wine into vinegar will be much
>>>>>faster, about 1 week.
>>>>
>>>>I think that you will need to use sour dough bread if it is available
>>>>near
>>>>you, but thr recipe sounds great and I am going to try it.
>>>
>>>You don't need to use sourdough, or bread made with
>>>any specific yeast. There's no live cultures left in
>>>bread (as there is in, for example, yoghurt). It all
>>>dies off during baking.
>>
>
> I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the directions
> and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
> vinegar and I don't know why. There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
> read, which is where I got the idea for trying it....rec.crafts.brewing? or
> ...something winemaking? can't remember what the group was called...anyway,
> check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some help..
>
> Kathi
>
>
Plus, regardless of what Jim says, oil is too expensive to make vinegar
out of it. Go to http://www.versatilevinegar.org/faqs.html to see how
vinegar is made and the different types.

George

> I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the directions
> and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
> vinegar and I don't know why.

The acetobacter needs oxygen to make vinegar. You don't say, but if
you didn't leave the wine open to the air (cheesecloth), the acetobacter
wouldn't be able to get any O2 and wouldn't work. (That's probably the
main reason most wine doesn't end up vinegar!).


> There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
> read, which is where I got the idea for trying it....rec.crafts.brewing? or
> ...something winemaking? can't remember what the group was called...anyway,
> check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some help..

rec.crafts.brewing is about beer, rec.crafts.winemaking is for wine.

Derric

"Derric" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>> I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the
>> directions
>> and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
>> vinegar and I don't know why.
>
> The acetobacter needs oxygen to make vinegar. You don't say, but if
> you didn't leave the wine open to the air (cheesecloth), the acetobacter
> wouldn't be able to get any O2 and wouldn't work. (That's probably the
> main reason most wine doesn't end up vinegar!).

yes, I did use cheese cloth...which is why I'm stumped......


>
>
>> There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
>> read, which is where I got the idea for trying it....rec.crafts.brewing?
>> or
>> ...something winemaking? can't remember what the group was
>> called...anyway,
>> check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some
>> help..
>
> rec.crafts.brewing is about beer, rec.crafts.winemaking is for wine.

right, thanks - couldn't remember - but I was close...;-)

Kathi


>
> Derric
>
>

On 9 Jan, 21:49, "Kathi Jones" > wrote:
> "Derric" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> >> I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the
> >> directions
> >> and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
> >> vinegar and I don't know why.
>
> > The acetobacter needs oxygen to make vinegar. You don't say, but if
> > you didn't leave the wine open to the air (cheesecloth), the acetobacter
> > wouldn't be able to get any O2 and wouldn't work. (That's probably the
> > main reason most wine doesn't end up vinegar!).
>
> yes, I did use cheese cloth...which is why I'm stumped......
>
>
>
> >> There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
> >> read, which is where I got the idea for trying it....rec.crafts.brewing?
> >> or
> >> ...something winemaking? can't remember what the group was
> >> called...anyway,
> >> check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some
> >> help..
>
> > rec.crafts.brewing is about beer, rec.crafts.winemaking is for wine.
>
> right, thanks - couldn't remember - but I was close...;-)
>
> Kathi
>
>
>
> > Derric

It is possible to make wine vinegar by leaving your wine out in the
open to 'catch' the acetobacter but you can also 'catch' other things
that you don't really want. It's better to add some preservative free
vinegar about half and half if you really want to 'catch' your own,
but it's much better, as someone else said, to buy or beg a mother
from somewhere,

http://cellar-homebrew.com/store/cat...her-p-910.html



I have a mother on my malt vinegar at the moment, it grew very
quickly, I'm hoping it's okay and not something else, a friend of mine
gave me some of his mother but it was quite old. Some of it was
looking good so in it went. I took it out after a couple of days
because it's the acetobacter that you're after not the cellulose mass.
If the mother falls it can rot making off tastes in your vinegar I
read. I fed some organic, unpasteurized wine vinegar 50:50 wine and
vinegar, it tastes great now, it's ready for bottling already, I don't
want it any stronger.

Jim

"TG" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> On 9 Jan, 21:49, "Kathi Jones" > wrote:
>> "Derric" > wrote in message
>>
>> ...
>>
>>
>>
>> >> I bought a vinegar mother from a wine making shop, followed the
>> >> directions
>> >> and tried to make vinegar out of my home brew wine....It never became
>> >> vinegar and I don't know why.
>>
>> > The acetobacter needs oxygen to make vinegar. You don't say, but if
>> > you didn't leave the wine open to the air (cheesecloth), the
>> > acetobacter
>> > wouldn't be able to get any O2 and wouldn't work. (That's probably the
>> > main reason most wine doesn't end up vinegar!).
>>
>> yes, I did use cheese cloth...which is why I'm stumped......
>>
>>
>>
>> >> There's a wine making newsgroup I used to
>> >> read, which is where I got the idea for trying
>> >> it....rec.crafts.brewing?
>> >> or
>> >> ...something winemaking? can't remember what the group was
>> >> called...anyway,
>> >> check them out - there are brewing people there that could be of some
>> >> help..
>>
>> > rec.crafts.brewing is about beer, rec.crafts.winemaking is for wine.
>>
>> right, thanks - couldn't remember - but I was close...;-)
>>
>> Kathi
>>
>>
>>
>> > Derric
>
> It is possible to make wine vinegar by leaving your wine out in the
> open to 'catch' the acetobacter but you can also 'catch' other things
> that you don't really want. It's better to add some preservative free
> vinegar about half and half if you really want to 'catch' your own,
> but it's much better, as someone else said, to buy or beg a mother
> from somewhere,
>
> http://cellar-homebrew.com/store/cat...her-p-910.html
>
>
>
> I have a mother on my malt vinegar at the moment, it grew very
> quickly, I'm hoping it's okay and not something else, a friend of mine
> gave me some of his mother but it was quite old. Some of it was
> looking good so in it went. I took it out after a couple of days
> because it's the acetobacter that you're after not the cellulose mass.
> If the mother falls it can rot making off tastes in your vinegar I
> read. I fed some organic, unpasteurized wine vinegar 50:50 wine and
> vinegar, it tastes great now, it's ready for bottling already, I don't
> want it any stronger.
>
> Jim
>

I had a vinegar mother, bought it from a brewing shop - tried to make red
wine vinegar
followed the instructions and did what I was supposed to do -
tossed everything...will buy it ready made from the grocery store, much
easier!

but that's just my experience....I certainly didn't research it to the
extent that you did.
I hope you have better luck

Kathi

On 14 Feb, 22:59, "Kathi Jones" > wrote:
> "TG" > wrote in message
>
....
> > want it any stronger.
>
> > Jim
>
> I had a vinegar mother, bought it from a brewing shop - tried to make red
> wine vinegar
> followed the instructions and did what I was supposed to do -
> tossed everything...will buy it ready made from the grocery store, much
> easier!
>
> but that's just my experience....I certainly didn't research it to the
> extent that you did.
> I hope you have better luck
>
> Kathi- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hi Kathi,

it could have been the sulfites in the wine that stopped the vinegar
from forming. If you aerate the wine first you can get rid of the
sulfites I'm told. I've had one batch now, I tried it again last
night, I can't believe how strong it is, I could use if for pickling.
It seems that white wine is has the most sulfites in it though, I've
used organic red and given it some good shaking. I've literally just
this second received my white wine mother, I'm so looking forward to
feeding it. I'll get some organic white later and aerate it well. I'm
going to have fun trying different brews.

But Kathi if it's the easy route every time we wouldn't be posting
here. : -) Thanks for the wishes of luck. I'll keep you posted if
anyone is interested. Is this the group to discuss vinegar making? If
not I'll keep schtum.

Jim

cbx wrote:
> My 2 cents worth. Acetobacter is the critter that is responsible for
> changing the alcohol to vinegar, and when making wine this is the
> critter you want to avoid at all costs.
>
> Surest way to make good vinegar is to buy a culture (mother) from
> reputable vendor (homebrew supply stores carry it) or borrow a few
> ounces from someone who has a culture going. The "Mother" is the most
> disgusting looking thing you would ever see in your life, and it looks
> obscene to say the least. There are different strains of
> "acetobacter" that produce various flavors. I like Malt vinegar so
> purchase a malt vinegar mother and use stale beer instead of wine.
>
> You can make your own "mother" by putting single layer of very coarse
> cheesecloth or screening over a jug of wine, and set it out on the
> porch. Fruitflies, flies, other flying critters will come to try to
> get into the bottle, but will be stopped by the screen. However, the
> little "acetobacter" fall into the wine and start growing, as they
> naturally populate the outside of the fruitfly and flies, and other
> bugs.
>
> The problem with this method is that although it works all the time,
> you never know exactly which strainof the little bacterium or whatever
> you are starting, although most always it will turn out OK. For a
> particular flavor get a "mother" from a company specializing in
> vinegars.
>
> Commercial vinegar is made from Crude Oil, I would NEVER NEVER NEVER
> drink vinegar made in a refinery (distilled white vinegar and most
> commercial vinegars, flavored with laboratory chemicals).
>
> Maybe someone from England can jump in here with more explicit
> instructions, as they have some excellent Malt vinegars over there and
> I have never been able to even come close to those with my
> store-bought mothers. (a "Mother" would make the basis of a good
> science fiction movie, as if you have ever seen one they are the stuff
> mightmares are made of).
>
> On a related subject,, I used to make sherry the way they do in
> Europe, in an Estuffa (heated cabinet),

I thought it was called a "solera" and was sun-powered. and wasn't one
"cabinet" but a series of casks....

Ah, here we go:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solera

B/

B/