Thanks Edrina, for the segue into something I was planning on posting.


To all of you who are discussing where to get your canning jars, such as
Goodwill or Salvation Army, I had a treasure trove dropped into my lap the
other day.

An acquaintence from church saw me making jelly for VBS and asked where I
got the jars.....I give the answer, here and there, this store or that.
What surprised me next was I was asked if I 'wanted' some for free......Hey,
FREE is my favorite word. Seems the father-in-law had recently passed and
had lived out his last days in the farm house his family was raised in.
When his wife died, he couldn't part with any of her belongings so now it
was up to my friend and her husband to clean out the house and put it on the
market. They found all sorts of canning jars and asked if I were interested.
When I said yes, she told me she knew of a few other people in the same boat
as they were and would 'put it out on the grapevine' that I would take
canning jars. Seems it was against the grain to just toss them, and they
didn't want to sell them at a yard sale or the like, but they would pass
them to someone who would use and 'love them' the way Mom did.

Made me think of Barb, and the joy she gets using the vinegar bottles that
she knew were used and loved by Bob. So, suggestion to those who can, let
it be known that you do, and when the old time canners no longer need their
'stuff' in the heavenly realms, their family will think of you lovingly and
that you carry on Mom (or Dad's) traditions. And also, stop and think, who
would YOU want to give your stuff to if you no longer needed it as you were
being fitted for wings or (for some of the people I've dealt with on r.f.c -
not here) a pitchfork? Would you want your kids to get it, or someone near
and dear who shares your passion?
Inquiring minds, ya know.
-ginny

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 11:17:30 -0400, "Virginia Tadrzynski" wrote:

>[...] Seems it was against the grain to just toss them, and they
>didn't want to sell them at a yard sale or the like, but they would pass
>them to someone who would use and 'love them' the way Mom did. [...]

</lurk>
Note that there are lists for giving away stuff that is too good to
throw away, FreeCycle being the most prominent. I got about 200 jars
from FreeCycle last year (nice solid Australian Fowlers Vacola jars,
just need new rubber rings) when someone wanted to pass on their stash.
It seems that most of those were passed on to them by a neighbour once
upon...

http://www.freecycle.org/

Now, back to <lurk>
--
Ross McKay, Toronto, NSW Australia
The planet is in a pickle, but fermenting will help save us

Ross McKay wrote:

>
> </lurk>
> Note that there are lists for giving away stuff that is too good to
> throw away, FreeCycle being the most prominent. I got about 200 jars
> from FreeCycle last year (nice solid Australian Fowlers Vacola jars,
> just need new rubber rings) when someone wanted to pass on their stash.
> It seems that most of those were passed on to them by a neighbour once
> upon...
>
> http://www.freecycle.org/


I agree that Freecycle may be the best way to go if you don't know
anyone personally who cans or makes jam.

I have told the story before, but when my parents died in 1971 we
cleaned out their cellar. I took the few empty canning jars but there
were quite a few Pre-WWII jars filled with things like stewed rabbit
that we sent directly to the dump because we were afraid to open them.
They had been filled during WWII using BWB method and were ~30 years
old. I did wish I could save some of the old, colored jars but I wasn't
brave enough to tackle the contents.

gloria p

In article >,
"Virginia Tadrzynski" > wrote:

> that you carry on Mom (or Dad's) traditions. And also, stop and think, who
> would YOU want to give your stuff to if you no longer needed it as you were
> being fitted for wings or (for some of the people I've dealt with on r.f.c -
> not here) a pitchfork? Would you want your kids to get it, or someone near
> and dear who shares your passion?
> Inquiring minds, ya know.
> -ginny

See my earlier post in the day - drift from the thermometers thread
started on 7-15.

--
-Barb, Mother Superior, HOSSSPoJ
rec.food.cooking
Preserved Fruit Administrator
"Always in a jam. Never in a stew." - Evergene

"Virginia Tadrzynski" > wrote in message
...
Would you want your kids to get it, or someone near
> and dear who shares your passion?
> Inquiring minds, ya know.
> -ginny
>
>

I would definitely want someone to get them who will use them as I do.
Canning isn't all that popular in this part of TN as farms have turned into
shopping malls, subdivisions and huge apartment complexes. All I could
scrounge up for free were 3 boxes of wide-mouth pints.

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 20:03:00 -0600, Gloria P >
wrote:

snippies
>>
>> http://www.freecycle.org/
>
>
>I agree that Freecycle may be the best way to go if you don't know
>anyone personally who cans or makes jam.

>
>gloria p

I belong to 2 Freecycle groups, one has 7000 + members. Canning
supplies are always in hot demand. I asked for a big pot and received
a gigantic 6 quart canning pot with jar lifter in near perfect
condition. You can practicaly BWB yourself in the darn thing. Jars,
rings and pressure canners aren't so easy to come by but asking's
free..


snow

"Gloria P" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ross McKay wrote:
>
>>
>> </lurk>
>> Note that there are lists for giving away stuff that is too good to
>> throw away, FreeCycle being the most prominent. I got about 200 jars
>> from FreeCycle last year (nice solid Australian Fowlers Vacola jars,
>> just need new rubber rings) when someone wanted to pass on their stash.
>> It seems that most of those were passed on to them by a neighbour once
>> upon...
>>
>> http://www.freecycle.org/
>
>
> I agree that Freecycle may be the best way to go if you don't know anyone
> personally who cans or makes jam.
>
> I have told the story before, but when my parents died in 1971 we cleaned
> out their cellar. I took the few empty canning jars but there were quite
> a few Pre-WWII jars filled with things like stewed rabbit that we sent
> directly to the dump because we were afraid to open them. They had been
> filled during WWII using BWB method and were ~30 years old. I did wish I
> could save some of the old, colored jars but I wasn't brave enough to
> tackle the contents.
>

If you didn't know how to properly handle them then you probably
saved your life by sending them to the dump. It's a given that
they would have been chock full of botulism toxin. It's
not even necessary to eat the contents, just getting a high enough
dose of the toxin on your skin is enough.

Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat. It is the smell that
would have taken the bravery!

Ted

>
> Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
> take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
> and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
> soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat.
>
> Ted
>
>

Are you sure about the toxin being killed by heat? I've always heard
that heat will kill the spores but the toxin they produce lives on....

gloria p

In article >,
says...
>
> >
> > Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
> > take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
> > and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
> > soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat.
> >
> > Ted
> >
> >
>
> Are you sure about the toxin being killed by heat? I've always heard
> that heat will kill the spores but the toxin they produce lives on....
>
> gloria p
>
No toxins can be removed by heat .. unless you are using temperatures in
excess of the item's combustion point at which time the charcoal you
have left might be safe to consume.

Ted if you have any neat stuff (toys etc put me in your will and
continue to follow your unsafe practises)

ServSafe Instructor
Illinois Department of Public Health Food Service Instructor
NEHA approved Instructor

Gloria P wrote:
>>
>> Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
>> take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
>> and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
>> soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat.
>>
> Are you sure about the toxin being killed by heat? I've always heard
> that heat will kill the spores but the toxin they produce lives on....

BWB temps kill the spores, yeah. The toxin is stable to 240:F, but
after that so presssure cooking is recommended.... I have heard stories
of open air boiling for a half hour or so after opening the jars.

B/

On Jul 22, 8:30*pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
> Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
> take care of. *All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
> and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
> soak. *Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat. *It is the smell that
> would have taken the bravery!
>
There have been several replies to this post concerning botulism. The
other posters are correct that a BWB is not sufficient. For details
(and there is more than you ever wanted to know) on botulism see the
refFAQ, Section IV C, D and especially E. It is available at
http://rfpfaq.jaclu.com/rfpFAQ8.htm#C .

"SCUBApix" > wrote in message
...
On Jul 22, 8:30 pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>> Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
>> take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
>> and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
>> soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat. It is the smell that
>> would have taken the bravery!
>
>There have been several replies to this post concerning botulism. The
>other posters are correct that a BWB is not sufficient. For details
>(and there is more than you ever wanted to know) on botulism see the
>refFAQ, Section IV C, D and especially E. It is available at
>http://rfpfaq.jaclu.com/rfpFAQ8.htm#C .

Interesting, since this link you cite here states:

"... The toxin is heat labile and can be destroyed if heated at 80C for 10
minutes or longer...."

80C is 176 F, and a BWB canner runs at 212F at sea level. I did say a nice
long soak. I'm not exactly sure how you would get less than 212F at the
interior of a jar that had sat for an hour in a BWB canner (the minimum
I would consider a nice long soak) but I suppose it's possible.

You are correct though that I should have been more specific and
made the appropriate cites to the relevant material.

One thing that I WILL add though, which is irresponsible in that
link that you cited, was disposal methods:

"...Swollen but still sealed jars can be put in the garbage (in a heavy bag)
or buried...."

This is irresponsible because such materials should clearly be labeled
BIOHAZARD and disposed of in an appropriate facility that takes these.
(same procedure you use for disposing of used needles, etc.)

I did also get a kick out of the second method:

"...
B.1 Detoxification Method 1

1.. Place containers and lids on their sides in a large pot (8 qt or
more).
2.. Wash hands well.
3.. Cover containers with water to at least 2" over them.
4.. Put lid on pot and bring to a boil.
5.. Boil 30 minutes.
6.. Cool and discard (in trash bag or bury).
...."

Why exactly do you detoxify it then once it's detoxified, you don't reuse
the
jar? ;-) Seems rather pointless - either it's detoxified, or it's not
detoxified.
Detoxified means safe to open. Perhaps they have some new unique definition
of the word detoxify. ;-)

Ted

On Aug 5, 3:45*am, "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
> "SCUBApix" > wrote in message
>
> ...
> On Jul 22, 8:30 pm, "Ted Mittelstaedt" > wrote:
>
> >> Fortunately, though, botulism toxin is very easy to
> >> take care of. All you do is just put the jars, unopened, contents
> >> and all, in a BWB canner and give them a nice long
> >> soak. Botulism toxin is destroyed by heat. It is the smell that
> >> would have taken the bravery!
>
> >There have been several replies to this post concerning botulism. The
> >other posters are correct that a BWB is not sufficient. For details
> >(and there is more than you ever wanted to know) on botulism see the
> >refFAQ, Section IV C, D and especially E. It is available at
> >http://rfpfaq.jaclu.com/rfpFAQ8.htm#C.
>
> Interesting, since this link you cite here states:
>
> "... The toxin is heat labile and can be destroyed if heated at 80C for 10
> minutes or longer...."
>
> 80C is 176 F, and a BWB canner runs at 212F at sea level. *I did say a nice
> long soak. *I'm not exactly sure how you would get less than 212F at the
> interior of a jar that had sat for an hour in a BWB canner (the minimum
> I would consider a nice long soak) but I suppose it's possible.
>
> You are correct though that I should have been more specific and
> made the appropriate cites to the relevant material.
>
Ted,
One point to consider is that when worying about 'botulism', there are
three things to consider: the toxin that can kill, the spore and the
bacterium.

You are correct that the toxin can be killed in a bwb at the
temperature you specified. However, as stated in Section E (the
Section I originally stressed):

"Remember, that despite the bacterium's fearsome reputation, _C.
botulinum_ is still a microbe, and can be killed using a little basic
microbiology. Preserving recipes utilize at least one of these 5
microbiological facts, good recipes often use several.

1. _C. botulinum_ bacterium dies at 212 F/ 100 C.
2. _C. botulinum_ spores die at 240 F/ 116 C.
3. Botulism toxin denatures at 185 F/ 85 C.
**(All temperatures must be maintained for least 15 minutes, and the
heat must be consistent throughout the food, fluid, and jar.)**
4. _C. botulinum_ spores cannot hatch in strong acid solutions of pH
4.6 or below. (Some sources claim pH 4.7.)
5. _C. botulinum_ cannot grow, develop, or multiply in food with a
water content of less than 35%. (Food dehydrators have another set of
toxic pests to worry about, see F. about aflatoxin.) "

The problem is item 2 above. That temperature is NOT bwb compatable.
Under the proper anerobic conditions, the spores can hatch into the
bacterium. Anything that contained the toxin MAY still contain spores
and what you put into them next COULD (not will) allow them to hatch.
Note also that detoxifying is killing the toxin, NOT the spores. This
explains why they recommend throwing away the "good' jars after
detoxifying.

You raise a good question on disposing of contaminated jars. What is
in the FAQ is quite a few years old. I will look into trying to find
out if any new recommendations exist. If anyone else finds something,
please let me know and I will update the FAQ.