A co-worker sells her homemade barbecue sauce in pint jars. I bought a
jar a few months ago, we ate it, it was fine. I thought I'd buy
another jar from her today, and as we were talking, I asked her how she
cans the stuff -- does she use a pressure canner, boiling water bath,
what?

Um. She doesn't. She said, and I quote, "All the ingredients we use
are non-perishable, so we don't have to do any of that stuff. It will
keep forever."

I was stunned, so I took the stuff and resolved never to buy it again,
but Eek! Give me lots of info to print out and give to her about how
unsafe this is, or tell me I'm overreacting and it's perfectly safe (I
won't believe you, and I'm still gonna throw the stuff out, but I won't
bother her with it if you all think what she's doing is fine).

serene

wrote:

> A co-worker sells her homemade barbecue sauce in pint jars. I bought a
> jar a few months ago, we ate it, it was fine. I thought I'd buy
> another jar from her today, and as we were talking, I asked her how she
> cans the stuff -- does she use a pressure canner, boiling water bath,
> what?
> Um. She doesn't. She said, and I quote, "All the ingredients we
> use
> are non-perishable, so we don't have to do any of that stuff. It will
> keep forever."
> I was stunned, so I took the stuff and resolved never to buy it
> again,
> but Eek! Give me lots of info to print out and give to her about how
> unsafe this is, or tell me I'm overreacting and it's perfectly safe (I
> won't believe you, and I'm still gonna throw the stuff out, but I won't
> bother her with it if you all think what she's doing is fine).

Egads, they're everywhere. I'm not doing bbq sauce yet, but I've run into
picklers and jammers that still use the "open kettle" method. I don't think
you are overreacting at all - one can introduce all kinds of toxins into
stuff, and if you don't know the pH, don't heat it up enuf......Blooey all
yer friends and relatives will know. Permanent wise. And all food spoils,
sooner or later. HTH.
Edrena
This is from our own FAQ, my bold added:
2.I got some recipes from my grandparents. Are they safe? How can I make
them safe? Evaluating Home Canning Recipes For Safety
What do you do when someone gives you "Aunt Tillie's Special" old
favorite jam recipe? Or Uncle Willie's barbecue sauce? Or Cousin Millie's
dill pickle recipe? In today's heightened awareness of food safety, how do
you tell which are safe and which are not? There are no hard and fast
rules, or secret formulas, to help you decide. But there are some
priorities you can use to help you balance the pros and cons. They depend
on the factors that allow molds, yeasts and bacteria to grow, and on the
relative hazards that molds, yeast and bacteria present in foods.
Factors Influencing Safety
In food preservation, the factors that are important to inhibiting growth
a
a.Sugar - enough sugar will stop the growth of most organisms
b.Salt - enough salt will stop the growth of most organisms
c.Acid - enough acid will stop the growth of most organisms
d.** Too little sugar, salt or acid will permit spoilage
e.Air - most organisms must have air to grow, BUT the most dangerous
bacteria in home food preservation, Clostridium botulinum, will only grow
without air (see Part 8, Section IV, C).
f.Temperature - most dangerous microorganisms grow best at room temperature
or a little above. But in preserving food, we are interested in killing the

organisms and their spores, not just in slowing their growth.
The death rate of microorganisms depends on:
a.The microorganism - they die at different rates
b.The number of cells or spores present initially in the food - the
more there are, the longer it will take to kill them all
c.The medium (food) that they are in - most die faster in acidic
food than low acid food, and in wet food than dry food.
d.The temperature - in canning the important temperature is the
temperature at the coldest spot in the jar.
e.The length of time at that temperature - when we heat food, not
all the organisms will die at the same time, they die gradually, and the
full process time
is necessary to be sure that all, even the most heat-resistant
ones, have died.
These last two factors, temperature and time, depend on how much solid
vs. liquid is in the jar, and on how tightly the food is packed. Heat from
the steam or water in the canner penetrates into different foods at
different rates. Liquids circulate in the jar and carry the heat into the
center of the jar. Solids must heat slowly from the outside in. A process
time for randomly packed green beans, which have spaces for water to
circulate, will not be adequate for "tin soldier" green beans, when the
tightly packed, vertically aligned beans leave no room for water to
circulate.
The most important microorganism in home canning is Clostridium
botulinum. The toxins it produces damage the nervous system, producing
paralysis and cause death. The damage to nerve cells is permanent. Minute
amounts of contaminated food can carry enough toxin to cause death. This
bacteria produces spores which are very resistant to heat. It is also very
sensitive to acid, and will not grow in acid foods. Other pathogenic
bacteria are usually killed by much less heat and in a shorter period of
time than Cl. botulinum. Most require air, so will not grow in a sealed
jar. They are of less concern in home canning.

and this is from our friends in Georgia, the USDA partners, the
National Center for Home Food Preservation is
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/questions/FAQ_canning.html#3

If my recipe doesn't call for processing, do I need to do so?
Many recipes passed down through the years or found in older
cookbooks do not include instructions for processing. The foods are
usually canned by the open kettle method, sealed and stored. Foods
prepared in this manner present a serious health risk — particularly low
acid foods. To minimize the risk of food spoilage, all high acid foods
should be processed in a water bath canner or pressure canner and all
low acid foods in a pressure canner.

wrote:

> A co-worker sells her homemade barbecue sauce in pint jars. I bought a
> jar a few months ago, we ate it, it was fine. I thought I'd buy
> another jar from her today, and as we were talking, I asked her how she
> cans the stuff -- does she use a pressure canner, boiling water bath,
> what?
>
> Um. She doesn't. She said, and I quote, "All the ingredients we use
> are non-perishable, so we don't have to do any of that stuff. It will
> keep forever."
>
> I was stunned, so I took the stuff and resolved never to buy it again,
> but Eek! Give me lots of info to print out and give to her about how
> unsafe this is, or tell me I'm overreacting and it's perfectly safe (I
> won't believe you, and I'm still gonna throw the stuff out, but I won't
> bother her with it if you all think what she's doing is fine).


Anyone who does this should label it clearly. "Keep refrigerated
and use within one month" would apply here.

When I give homemade food products as gifts, I normally put a
"use by" date on them.

--
Reg

wrote:
> A co-worker sells her homemade barbecue sauce in pint jars. I bought a
> jar a few months ago, we ate it, it was fine. I thought I'd buy
> another jar from her today, and as we were talking, I asked her how she
> cans the stuff -- does she use a pressure canner, boiling water bath,
> what?
>
> Um. She doesn't. She said, and I quote, "All the ingredients we use
> are non-perishable, so we don't have to do any of that stuff. It will
> keep forever."
>
> I was stunned, so I took the stuff and resolved never to buy it again,
> but Eek! Give me lots of info to print out and give to her about how
> unsafe this is, or tell me I'm overreacting and it's perfectly safe (I
> won't believe you, and I'm still gonna throw the stuff out, but I won't
> bother her with it if you all think what she's doing is fine).
>
> serene
>



You are probably overreacting about the danger, but it's hard to tell
without the recipe. What is it, ketchup, w'shire sauce, pepper flakes,
vinegar, onions, sugar, and liquid smoke? If the sauce tastes good and
it hadn't killed me yet it's not moldy and it's been kept refrigerated
after opening, I would eat it.

You are not overreacting IMHO about her selling food that is not
properly processed. I wouldn't buy anything else from her. (if you
don't like this person, you might snitch to the county health dept)

Bob

TDKozan wrote:
> In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
> likely to cost you a friend.

It's a lot worse than that.

She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.

B/

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
> TDKozan wrote:
> > In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
> > likely to cost you a friend.
>
> It's a lot worse than that.
>
> She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
> someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
>
> B/

I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe - posted
here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
anyway...........

I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she responded
with 'well I won't give you any..."

.......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by email
and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again, but
she's not making antipasto anymore......

so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to risk.....

not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......

Kathi

Kathi Jones wrote:

> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > TDKozan wrote:
> > > In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
> > > likely to cost you a friend.
> >
> > It's a lot worse than that.
> >
> > She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
> > someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
> >
> > B/
>
> I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
> actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe - posted
> here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
> anyway...........
>
> I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she responded
> with 'well I won't give you any..."
>
> ......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
> documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by email
> and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again, but
> she's not making antipasto anymore......
> so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to risk.....
> not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......
> Kathi

That "winter mixed sweet pickle" in Small Batch Preserving makes pretty good
antipasto. But I do the meat separate. That lady at the market last year swore
up and down her cake in canning jar was safe as the hot sun condensed water
rolled down the interior.... I didn't make a big deal at the market, but I
didn't buy any either. OTH, for the picklers and jammers that could explain the
boiling water bath thing and knew their craft, I yummed and yummed. Mostly was
good too.
That co-worker thing is a pickle all by itself... I believe I'd say "Y'all make
this and keep it cold always, don't ya? You don't say! Well, that's not the way
I learned it."
Edrena

The Joneses wrote:
> Kathi Jones wrote:
>
>
>>"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>TDKozan wrote:
>>>
>>>>In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
>>>>likely to cost you a friend.
>>>
>>>It's a lot worse than that.
>>>
>>>She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
>>>someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
>>>
>>>B/
>>
>>I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
>>actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe - posted
>>here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
>>anyway...........
>>
>>I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she responded
>>with 'well I won't give you any..."
>>
>>......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
>>documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by email
>>and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again, but
>>she's not making antipasto anymore......
>>so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to risk.....
>>not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......
>>Kathi
>
>
> That "winter mixed sweet pickle" in Small Batch Preserving makes pretty good
> antipasto. But I do the meat separate. That lady at the market last year swore
> up and down her cake in canning jar was safe as the hot sun condensed water
> rolled down the interior.... I didn't make a big deal at the market, but I
> didn't buy any either. OTH, for the picklers and jammers that could explain the
> boiling water bath thing and knew their craft, I yummed and yummed. Mostly was
> good too.
> That co-worker thing is a pickle all by itself... I believe I'd say "Y'all make
> this and keep it cold always, don't ya? You don't say! Well, that's not the way
> I learned it."
> Edrena
>
>
>
I guess I'm not as diplomatic as you folk are. I question food gifts
from people with whom I am not familiar, particular with their methods
of cooking and canning. I've already got a compromised immune system, I
don't need some one who is living in 1840 poisoning me. A few of them
have gotten angry but most are willing to learn a "new" method of food
preservation.

George Shirley wrote:
[clipped other stuff]

> I guess I'm not as diplomatic as you folk are. I question food gifts
> from people with whom I am not familiar, particular with their methods
> of cooking and canning. I've already got a compromised immune system, I
> don't need some one who is living in 1840 poisoning me. A few of them
> have gotten angry but most are willing to learn a "new" method of food
> preservation.

It's too bad all that smoke & salt we consumed in our life won't preserve us as well
as meat. And we'd need an dry, frozen environment. George, we all gotta move to
Antartica! I hear the growing season for everything but krill is real short.
Edrena

George Shirley wrote:

> I guess I'm not as diplomatic as you folk are.

I'm only being 'diplomatic' to the degree that the lesson is, don't get
involved with coworkers to that degree.

B/

Consider wine and beer that last without spoiling. Sauerkraut, fermented
pickles, and high acid foods like pickled eggs are not heat processed. The
co-worker with the barbecue sauce may be perfectly OK. If you think about
it, there are probably loads of things that are not heat preserved. Cheese
is another example.

Andie Z

Kathi Jones wrote:
> "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>TDKozan wrote:
>>
>>>In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
>>>likely to cost you a friend.
>>
>>It's a lot worse than that.
>>
>>She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
>>someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
>>
>>B/
>
>
> I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
> actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe - posted
> here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
> anyway...........
>
> I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she responded
> with 'well I won't give you any..."
>
> ......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
> documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by email
> and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again, but
> she's not making antipasto anymore......
>
> so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to risk.....
>
> not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......
>
> Kathi
>
>
>
Are you aware of Bernardin's antipasto recipe. It is safe and fairly
acceptable to people who used the old one that makes us all cringe. The
instructions do tell you to add the stuff that's not safe before serving
if you wish. If you are in the US you can probably find it on the
joint home canning site by using the Canada rather than US recipe part.
I'll try it and see, other wise, if you want , I will post it.
Ellen

"ellen wickberg" > wrote in message
news:bMNQf.136437$B94.15900@pd7tw3no...
> Kathi Jones wrote:
> > "Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>TDKozan wrote:
> >>
> >>>In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
> >>>likely to cost you a friend.
> >>
> >>It's a lot worse than that.
> >>
> >>She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
> >>someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
> >>
> >>B/
> >
> >
> > I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
> > actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe -
posted
> > here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
> > anyway...........
> >
> > I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she
responded
> > with 'well I won't give you any..."
> >
> > ......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
> > documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by
email
> > and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again,
but
> > she's not making antipasto anymore......
> >
> > so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to
risk.....
> >
> > not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......
> >
> > Kathi
> >
> >
> >
> Are you aware of Bernardin's antipasto recipe. It is safe and fairly
> acceptable to people who used the old one that makes us all cringe. The
> instructions do tell you to add the stuff that's not safe before serving
> if you wish. If you are in the US you can probably find it on the
> joint home canning site by using the Canada rather than US recipe part.
> I'll try it and see, other wise, if you want , I will post it.
> Ellen

Thanks Ellen. Yes, I know the recipe. Infact, I copied and sent it, with
all the safety do's and don'ts to step-mom at the time. We didn't talk
about it after that.

Kathi

Kathi Jones wrote:
> "ellen wickberg" > wrote in message
> news:bMNQf.136437$B94.15900@pd7tw3no...
>
>>Kathi Jones wrote:
>>
>>>"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>TDKozan wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>In the long run, pressing the argument with her about it is only
>>>>>likely to cost you a friend.
>>>>
>>>>It's a lot worse than that.
>>>>
>>>>She said "co-worker." It's not someone she can choose to avoid, and
>>>>someone she has to co-operate with on some level or another.
>>>>
>>>>B/
>>>
>>>
>>>I had a similar problem with my step mother and her antipasto recipe. I
>>>actually posted my dilemma to this group. You all know the recipe -
>
> posted
>
>>>here, on the net etc - totally not safe, but people keep making it
>>>anyway...........
>>>
>>>I had to tell my STEP MOTHER that her recipe wasn't safe and she
>
> responded
>
>>>with 'well I won't give you any..."
>>>
>>>......ok, so that wasn't good enough for me. So I found as much
>>>documentation on the subject as I could find and sent it to her - by
>
> email
>
>>>and in hard copy. And you know what? We never talked about it again,
>
> but
>
>>>she's not making antipasto anymore......
>>>
>>>so one would risk a friend or a co worker....imagine what I had to
>
> risk.....
>
>>>not to mention what/who my step mom was risking.......
>>>
>>>Kathi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Are you aware of Bernardin's antipasto recipe. It is safe and fairly
>>acceptable to people who used the old one that makes us all cringe. The
>>instructions do tell you to add the stuff that's not safe before serving
>>if you wish. If you are in the US you can probably find it on the
>>joint home canning site by using the Canada rather than US recipe part.
>> I'll try it and see, other wise, if you want , I will post it.
>>Ellen
>
>
> Thanks Ellen. Yes, I know the recipe. Infact, I copied and sent it, with
> all the safety do's and don'ts to step-mom at the time. We didn't talk
> about it after that.
>
> Kathi
>
>
Good try anyhow.
Ellen

Andie Z wrote:

> Consider wine and beer that last without spoiling. Sauerkraut, fermented
> pickles, and high acid foods like pickled eggs are not heat processed. The
> co-worker with the barbecue sauce may be perfectly OK. If you think about
> it, there are probably loads of things that are not heat preserved. Cheese
> is another example.
>
> Andie Z

That is surely something to think about - preserving as we preach it has only
been around a short time in human history. Those things you mentioned all keep
or cure well due to acid content I think, including the cheese. But all those
things do spoil in time and to that end, last better, and taste better under
refrigeration.
Edrena