About 6 months ago I made a batch of home made beef broth for a
recipe, I canned the left-over broth in a mason jar and placed in the
refridgerator. The broth & jar were held at about 180 for about 20
minutes before I sealed the lid. There is no layer of fat on top,
just a good lid seal with about a 1 inch space at top. Since I'm
keeping this in the fridge and sealed, how long could I expect it to
last?

Thanks in advance
Mike...

Mike wrote:

> About 6 months ago I made a batch of home made beef broth for a
> recipe, I canned the left-over broth in a mason jar and placed in the
> refridgerator. The broth & jar were held at about 180 for about 20
> minutes before I sealed the lid. There is no layer of fat on top,
> just a good lid seal with about a 1 inch space at top. Since I'm
> keeping this in the fridge and sealed, how long could I expect it to
> last?
>
> Thanks in advance
> Mike...

Dear Mike,
I wouldn't eat this for all the tea in china. I have kept salted broth
for weeks in the fridge under a seal of fat, but...While it *sounds* like
you pastuerized the broth well enough, I don't think the heat was high
enuf to kill botulism (which grows in an airless environment), which I
believe is the baddie of choice here. You did not mention if your broth
contained salt and to what degree, or if your broth was acidic. Most
broths are not acidic enuf to prevent bacteria from growing, even in the
fridge. According to the books I've read, heat, acid, and salt are things
that protect us from bacteria, mold, and botulism (the killer). I
believe the wisdom these days for broth is to pour boiling broth into
sterilized jars, wipe the rims, cap, cool in the fridge, then freeze it.
Barring that, one should pressure can according to a recipe, which will
sterilized the jars inside and out and they will seal themselves.
Have you checked out our FAQ for great books on canning?

The rec.food.preserving FAQ is available at
http://www.gbronline.com/jacke/rfpfaq/rfpFAQ.htm.
The differences have been
documented with the date of chgange at
http://www.gbronline.com/jacke/rfpfaq/differences.htm.


Edrena

The Joneses > wrote in message >...
> Mike wrote:
>
> > About 6 months ago I made a batch of home made beef broth for a
> > recipe, I canned the left-over broth in a mason jar and placed in the
> > refridgerator. The broth & jar were held at about 180 for about 20
> > minutes before I sealed the lid. There is no layer of fat on top,
> > just a good lid seal with about a 1 inch space at top. Since I'm
> > keeping this in the fridge and sealed, how long could I expect it to
> > last?
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > Mike...
>
> Dear Mike,
> I wouldn't eat this for all the tea in china. I have kept salted broth
> for weeks in the fridge under a seal of fat, but...While it *sounds* like
> you pastuerized the broth well enough, I don't think the heat was high
> enuf to kill botulism (which grows in an airless environment), which I
> believe is the baddie of choice here. You did not mention if your broth
> contained salt and to what degree, or if your broth was acidic. Most
> broths are not acidic enuf to prevent bacteria from growing, even in the
> fridge. According to the books I've read, heat, acid, and salt are things
> that protect us from bacteria, mold, and botulism (the killer). I
> believe the wisdom these days for broth is to pour boiling broth into
> sterilized jars, wipe the rims, cap, cool in the fridge, then freeze it.
> Barring that, one should pressure can according to a recipe, which will
> sterilized the jars inside and out and they will seal themselves.
> Have you checked out our FAQ for great books on canning?
>
> The rec.food.preserving FAQ is available at
> http://www.gbronline.com/jacke/rfpfaq/rfpFAQ.htm.
> The differences have been
> documented with the date of chgange at
> http://www.gbronline.com/jacke/rfpfaq/differences.htm.
>
>
> Edrena


Edrena,

Thanks for the feedback. I see your reasoning upto the point
of freezing the broth in the canning jar. Now, I'm not a home canner,
but I have reservations about freezing liquids in a glass jar. I've
seen where people have used ice cube trays to freeze broth and store
in 'ziplock' bags. I'm not sure how long that lasts in the freezer,
but I would think that with expansion, I wouldn't want to freeze
liquids in glass containers..
As for the Salt/Acid content of the broth, I couldn't say. Salted to
taste. But how would I keep track of the acid content???

Thanks...
Mike........

Mike wrote:

> > The rec.food.preserving FAQ is available at
> > http://www.gbronline.com/jacke/rfpfaq/rfpFAQ.htm.
> Thanks for the feedback. I see your reasoning upto the point
> of freezing the broth in the canning jar. Now, I'm not a home canner,
> but I have reservations about freezing liquids in a glass jar. I've
> seen where people have used ice cube trays to freeze broth and store
> in 'ziplock' bags. I'm not sure how long that lasts in the freezer,
> but I would think that with expansion, I wouldn't want to freeze
> liquids in glass containers..
> As for the Salt/Acid content of the broth, I couldn't say. Salted to
> taste. But how would I keep track of the acid content???
> Thanks...
> Mike........

As to the salt/acid thing, that's why one should use an approved recipe as probly neither
one of us has scientific equipment enuf to test. That tablespoon or so of lemon juice we add
to jams helps to preserve them when the fruit is not a high acid one (most are), as well as
helping the pectin work. Vinegar to a specific degree is what keeps lower acid pickles good
in the fridge for months, but _more_ vinegar is needed if one keeps them on the shelf. Most
sauces, veggies, meat products should be pressure canned if keeping on the shelf, or over a
week or two in the fridge. I'm thinking wine might be a nice acidifier, but I'm no expert
either.
As to freezing in glass jars - if one uses canning jars, you're okay, they are made to
withstand both heat and cold. We do leave a one inch headspace at the top, tho, to allow for
expansion. Of course, I wouldn't heat up a frozen jar in boiling water, but warming it
slowing in the microwave might be alright. I usually just pop a frozen jar in the fridge the
night before I use it. Commercial mayo jars and the like *might* take the cold and I would be
very careful about extremes of temp with these. Never use commercial one-use mayo jar to
pressure can, they are not good about the high heat at all.
I also freeze in ice cube trays and transfer to baggies. Broth esp - I like to throw a
couple of cubes into the rice/veggie water or add to gravy, etc.
Hope this helps!
Edrena
PS - what kind of pickles do you like? Some are very easy to make!

Lou wrote:

>
> On Fri, 14 May 2004 15:17:26 GMT, The Joneses >
> wrote:
>
>
>>Mike wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>in 'ziplock' bags. I'm not sure how long that lasts in the freezer,
>>>but I would think that with expansion, I wouldn't want to freeze
>>>liquids in glass containers..
>
>
>
>>either.
>> As to freezing in glass jars - if one uses canning jars, you're okay, they are made to
>>withstand both heat and cold. We do leave a one inch headspace at the top, tho, to allow for
>>expansion. Of course, I wouldn't heat up a frozen jar in boiling water, but warming it
>>slowing in the microwave might be alright. I usually just pop a frozen jar in the fridge the
>>night before I use it. Commercial mayo jars and the like *might* take the cold and I would be
>
>
>
> Jeez, I just bought some Ball half-pint and pint jars that say they're
> specifically for canning AND freezing. They were a couple of dollars
> more than those listed as just canning jars. I am going to start
> freezing my tomatoes and sauces soon (I live in Florida) using the
> Foodsaver to evacuate the air and then freeze. I wonder if the
> "freezing" jars are just clever labelling/marketing?
>
> Regards,
> Lou


They are tapered, so the jars don't break when they freeze, and you can
slide out the frozen contents by just letting it thaw a little.

You can freeze in normal glass jars, but you have to be a little more
careful about how full you fill them, and you can't get the frozen stuff
out until it is mostly thawed.

Bob

You are a veritable fount of info Bob. Now, you got any more of that
mayhaw jelly, I ate the last of it this morning on a couple of big old
biscuits? It was right tasty, my compliments to the young lady who made
it. We're picking peaches, trying to beat the birds and squirrels to
them. Tonight I think we may have squirrel and dumplings as a couple of
the tree rats were dumb enough to sit there and let me hit them with the
shovel. Maybe because they were so full of peaches they couldn't run.

Got to juice a few giant lemons too, they're about the size of a
softball and we picked four of them this morning. Ponderosa lemons do
produce well down here.

George
zxcvbob wrote:

> They are tapered, so the jars don't break when they freeze, and you can
> slide out the frozen contents by just letting it thaw a little.
>
> You can freeze in normal glass jars, but you have to be a little more
> careful about how full you fill them, and you can't get the frozen stuff
> out until it is mostly thawed.
>
> Bob

I should have added that we are having baked chicken tonight, not enough
squirrel meat, with baked Tatume squash, the first two are the size of a
baseball and ready to eat. Lots more on the three plants I have growing.
I really like those squash, thanks for the start last year Bob.

George

George Shirley wrote:
>
> You are a veritable fount of info Bob. Now, you got any more of that
> mayhaw jelly, I ate the last of it this morning on a couple of big old
> biscuits? It was right tasty, my compliments to the young lady who made
> it. We're picking peaches, trying to beat the birds and squirrels to
> them. Tonight I think we may have squirrel and dumplings as a couple of
> the tree rats were dumb enough to sit there and let me hit them with the
> shovel. Maybe because they were so full of peaches they couldn't run.
>
> Got to juice a few giant lemons too, they're about the size of a
> softball and we picked four of them this morning. Ponderosa lemons do
> produce well down here.
>
> George
> zxcvbob wrote:
>
>> They are tapered, so the jars don't break when they freeze, and you
>> can slide out the frozen contents by just letting it thaw a little.
>>
>> You can freeze in normal glass jars, but you have to be a little more
>> careful about how full you fill them, and you can't get the frozen
>> stuff out until it is mostly thawed.
>>
>> Bob
>
>

George Shirley wrote:
> I should have added that we are having baked chicken tonight, not enough
> squirrel meat, with baked Tatume squash, the first two are the size of a
> baseball and ready to eat. Lots more on the three plants I have growing.
> I really like those squash, thanks for the start last year Bob.
>
> George
>

You're quite welcome. We only made about 8 or 10 jars of mayhaw jelly
last year, and left a couple with my parents. So there's only a few
left and we need 2 or 3 for the fairs. Thanks for sending us the mayhaw
jelly recipe last year.

(How'd you get the squash out of the trees last year?)

I had to put up the electric fence this week to keep our boxer puppy out
of the garden, otherwise there wouldn't *be* a garden this year. I had
tranplanted some onions that I didn't really care about as a test, and
sho 'nuff she dug up every one of 'em. I felt real bad when she ran
into the fence (guess I'm getting soft-hearted in my middle-age), but
she's not afraid of the back yard anymore (that just lasted a few hours)
and she goes right up close to the fence but doesn't cross it. In a few
days I can probably take the charger off.

I've got tomatoes and peppers blooming in the basement, and a big pile
of compost piled up in the driveway. I may try to get a few plants in
the ground tomorrow and hope a frost doesn't kill them. It's not really
safe to plant warm-weather crops here until after Memorial day. I
didn't plant any cool-weather crops this year because of the puppy. I
bought a package of seeds for some giant greens called "tyfon"; it's a
cross between turnip greens and chinese cabbage. I am gonna still try
some of them on the west end of the garden where they will be shaded in
the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
good kimchee.

Best regards,
Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
> George Shirley wrote:
>
>> I should have added that we are having baked chicken tonight, not
>> enough squirrel meat, with baked Tatume squash, the first two are the
>> size of a baseball and ready to eat. Lots more on the three plants I
>> have growing. I really like those squash, thanks for the start last
>> year Bob.
>>
>> George
>>
>
> You're quite welcome. We only made about 8 or 10 jars of mayhaw jelly
> last year, and left a couple with my parents. So there's only a few
> left and we need 2 or 3 for the fairs. Thanks for sending us the mayhaw
> jelly recipe last year.
>
> (How'd you get the squash out of the trees last year?)

Cut the squash vines off at the tree trunk, took the remnant and trained
it to the trellis. They still made more squash than we could eat in a
season. I stir fried some squash and eggplant from the freezer as a go
with last night.


> I had to put up the electric fence this week to keep our boxer puppy out
> of the garden, otherwise there wouldn't *be* a garden this year. I had
> tranplanted some onions that I didn't really care about as a test, and
> sho 'nuff she dug up every one of 'em. I felt real bad when she ran
> into the fence (guess I'm getting soft-hearted in my middle-age), but
> she's not afraid of the back yard anymore (that just lasted a few hours)
> and she goes right up close to the fence but doesn't cross it. In a few
> days I can probably take the charger off.

She may be able to sense when the power is off, our cows and goats
could, the pigs just rain through the fence squealing.

>
> I've got tomatoes and peppers blooming in the basement, and a big pile
> of compost piled up in the driveway. I may try to get a few plants in
> the ground tomorrow and hope a frost doesn't kill them. It's not really
> safe to plant warm-weather crops here until after Memorial day. I
> didn't plant any cool-weather crops this year because of the puppy. I
> bought a package of seeds for some giant greens called "tyfon"; it's a
> cross between turnip greens and chinese cabbage. I am gonna still try
> some of them on the west end of the garden where they will be shaded in
> the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
> good kimchee.
>
> Best regards,
> Bob

It's abnormally cool here, we had a little norther blow through a couple
of days ago, dump 8 or 10 inches or rain and then on into the Gulf,
dropped the temps about 10 degrees so we've had a nice, relatively cool
spring so far.

George

zxcvbob wrote:

> the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
> good kimchee.

Bob - I tried to make kimchee and was not impressed with my effort. It never
seem to ferment percolate much, and the flavor was unimpressive, altho edible.
What's your favorite recipe for kimchee? I'd like to be able to can some, if
that is possible.
Edrena

The Joneses wrote:
> zxcvbob wrote:
>
>
>>the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
>>good kimchee.
>
>
> Bob - I tried to make kimchee and was not impressed with my effort. It never
> seem to ferment percolate much, and the flavor was unimpressive, altho edible.
> What's your favorite recipe for kimchee? I'd like to be able to can some, if
> that is possible.
> Edrena
>


I've never made it before.
I figure just follow a sauerkraut recipe, but use coarsely chopped
chinese cabbage and maybe a little mustard greens; mix in a lot of
medium-hot pepper flakes and some dried shrimp or anchovies (or just use
fish sauce instead of salt) before you ferment it.

Bob

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> The Joneses wrote:
> > zxcvbob wrote:
> >
> >
> >>the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
> >>good kimchee.
> >
> >
> > Bob - I tried to make kimchee and was not impressed with my effort. It never
> > seem to ferment percolate much, and the flavor was unimpressive, altho edible.
> > What's your favorite recipe for kimchee? I'd like to be able to can some, if
> > that is possible.
> > Edrena
> >
>
> I've never made it before.
> I figure just follow a sauerkraut recipe, but use coarsely chopped
> chinese cabbage and maybe a little mustard greens; mix in a lot of
> medium-hot pepper flakes...

....and garlic...

No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
the package

No, it's not like sauerkraut process. First you "kill" the cabbage by
salting it overnight, then rinse off the salt add the rest of the
schtuff and let it ferment for 3-4 days. Then refrigerate for another
couple weeks.

I'm not sure if it will can; and it does seem to keep in the fridge for
some months just fine.

Because temps here in San Francisco are rather cool for the initial
ferment, I start off the summer by buying a jar of it and using a few
tablespoons of the liquid as a starter. Then I can keep that going for
some time, just using a few tbsp. of liquid for each batch.

This does two things--keeps the flavor Edrena was talking about (plus
using the correct pepper, and it's NOT cayenne, I tried that once,
didn't work) as well as ensuring a ferment each time.

DO not use salt-brined pickle juice as a starter. I tried that once, on
the theory that lactobacilli are lactobacilli and I wound up with a
gallon of pickle-flavored cabbage.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> ...and garlic...
>
> No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
> can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
> the package

The dundicutt peppers I bought at an Indian/Pakistani grocery might
work. They are seedy round dried peppers that look like habaneros, but
they are not really very hot and they have a good flavor. I managed to
sprout some of the seeds and I'm going to try growing them this year.


> No, it's not like sauerkraut process. First you "kill" the cabbage by
> salting it overnight, then rinse off the salt add the rest of the
> schtuff and let it ferment for 3-4 days. Then refrigerate for another
> couple weeks.
>
> I'm not sure if it will can; and it does seem to keep in the fridge for
> some months just fine.
>
> Because temps here in San Francisco are rather cool for the initial
> ferment, I start off the summer by buying a jar of it and using a few
> tablespoons of the liquid as a starter. Then I can keep that going for
> some time, just using a few tbsp. of liquid for each batch.
>
> This does two things--keeps the flavor Edrena was talking about (plus
> using the correct pepper, and it's NOT cayenne, I tried that once,
> didn't work) as well as ensuring a ferment each time.
>
> DO not use salt-brined pickle juice as a starter. I tried that once, on
> the theory that lactobacilli are lactobacilli and I wound up with a
> gallon of pickle-flavored cabbage.
>

Maybe the dill and cucumber tastes overpowered the kimchee?
Do you think sauerkraut juice would work as a starter, or does it need
to be kimchee juice?

Best regards,
Bob

Brian Mailman wrote:
> zxcvbob wrote:
>
>>The Joneses wrote:
>>
>>>zxcvbob wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
>>>>good kimchee.
>>>
>>>
>>>Bob - I tried to make kimchee and was not impressed with my effort. It never
>>>seem to ferment percolate much, and the flavor was unimpressive, altho edible.
>>>What's your favorite recipe for kimchee? I'd like to be able to can some, if
>>>that is possible.
>>>Edrena
>>>
>>
>>I've never made it before.
>>I figure just follow a sauerkraut recipe, but use coarsely chopped
>>chinese cabbage and maybe a little mustard greens; mix in a lot of
>>medium-hot pepper flakes...
>
>
> ...and garlic...
>
> No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
> can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
> the package
>
> No, it's not like sauerkraut process. First you "kill" the cabbage by
> salting it overnight, then rinse off the salt add the rest of the
> schtuff and let it ferment for 3-4 days. Then refrigerate for another
> couple weeks.
>
> I'm not sure if it will can; and it does seem to keep in the fridge for
> some months just fine.
>
> Because temps here in San Francisco are rather cool for the initial
> ferment, I start off the summer by buying a jar of it and using a few
> tablespoons of the liquid as a starter. Then I can keep that going for
> some time, just using a few tbsp. of liquid for each batch.
>
> This does two things--keeps the flavor Edrena was talking about (plus
> using the correct pepper, and it's NOT cayenne, I tried that once,
> didn't work) as well as ensuring a ferment each time.
>
> DO not use salt-brined pickle juice as a starter. I tried that once, on
> the theory that lactobacilli are lactobacilli and I wound up with a
> gallon of pickle-flavored cabbage.
>
> B/
Try a few Thai Hot chiles Brian, closely related to the ones the Koreans
use to make kimchee. Of course you can't make authentic kimchee without
the authentic dung pile to put the crock in so the heat will make it
work. Personally I spent too much time on the ground with ROK troops to
ever want to eat the stuff.

George

zxcvbob wrote:
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:

> > No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
> > can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
> > the package
>
> The dundicutt peppers I bought at an Indian/Pakistani grocery might
> work. They are seedy round dried peppers that look like habaneros, but
> they are not really very hot and they have a good flavor.

Yeah, these have a flavor and aren't that hot. At first and in small
quantities. But ratchet up the volume and the heat comes with it.

I'd find a friend who can read Korean to find out what they are, but I'm
afraid I'd be horribly embarrassed if I heard "red pepper" or "pepper
for Kim chi." (I went to a thank-you dinner for volunteers helping with
an Afghani relief project, and when I asked what the beef patties with
leeks were called--meaning, in Afghanistan--I was told in English,
"burgers.").

> > DO not use salt-brined pickle juice as a starter. I tried that once, on
> > the theory that lactobacilli are lactobacilli and I wound up with a
> > gallon of pickle-flavored cabbage.


> Maybe the dill and cucumber tastes overpowered the kimchee?

Was only a tablespoon or so, and I had a more than a few cups of other
liquid, don't think that was it. Dunno, maybe the taste we associate
with salt-brined cukes (aka "half-sours") is actually the brine and
nothing to do with the veggies?

> Do you think sauerkraut juice would work as a starter, or does it need
> to be kimchee juice?

Dunno about that either, but seems like sauerkraut juice would work,
after all it's just a different variety of cabbage. Then again,
sauerkraut ferments for weeks at room temps and kim chee just for a few
days before it's fridged/buried.

B/

George Shirley wrote:
>
> Brian Mailman wrote:
> >
> > No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
> > can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
> > the package

> Try a few Thai Hot chiles Brian, closely related to the ones the Koreans
> use to make kimchee.

Fresh or dried/ground?

> Of course you can't make authentic kimchee without
> the authentic dung pile to put the crock in so the heat will make it
> work.

Another use for the kitty litter box, then... Nawww, I don't think
Frack, aka Antique Road Kill, would share willingly.

> Personally I spent too much time on the ground with ROK troops to
> ever want to eat the stuff.

It's the ones with fish that make me ... umm... errr... appreciate ...
cultural diversity. From a distance.

B/

"zxcvbob" > wrote in message
...

> I bought a package of seeds for some giant greens called "tyfon"; it's a
> cross between turnip greens and chinese cabbage. I am gonna still try
> some of them on the west end of the garden where they will be shaded in
> the afternoon. From the little I've read about tyfon, it ought to make
> good kimchee.

Bob:

I have been reading about tyfon for years and have never tried it. Please
keep us posted on this. My daughter and I are both big kimchee eaters.
Thanks.
--
Ivan Weiss "Bush, Bush, where's my job?"
Vashon WA Gone to feed your greedy mob!"
-- The Mugwump campaign, 2004

Brian Mailman wrote:
> George Shirley wrote:
>
>>Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>>>No, it's a ground red pepper and I have no idea what kind because I
>>>can't identify the flavor and I can't read the Korean and Japanese on
>>>the package
>
>
>>Try a few Thai Hot chiles Brian, closely related to the ones the Koreans
>>use to make kimchee.
>
>
> Fresh or dried/ground?

The ones you can get, the dried ones, flaked, will have a somewhat
stronger flavor.


>
>>Of course you can't make authentic kimchee without
>>the authentic dung pile to put the crock in so the heat will make it
>>work.
>
>
> Another use for the kitty litter box, then... Nawww, I don't think
> Frack, aka Antique Road Kill, would share willingly.
>
My kids used to have a cat that I called "Sail Cat." That's road kill
that has become flat and dry enough to use as a frisbee. After 35 years
I can't even remember the durned things real name. A fox killed and ate it.


>>Personally I spent too much time on the ground with ROK troops to
>>ever want to eat the stuff.
>
>
> It's the ones with fish that make me ... umm... errr... appreciate ...
> cultural diversity. From a distance.
>
> B/

I can understand that, I think that's where chemical warfare began.

George