I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as close
to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I am
worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
fermentation happen, anyway? Would innoculation create bad consequences if
malolactic didn't take?

TIA

Vic

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
. ..
>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
>there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>malolactic didn't take?

I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid in
apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat you
could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start with
vinifera fruit.

Tom S

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
. ..
>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And if
>there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>malolactic didn't take?

I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid in
apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat you
could slip it under a door. :^/

If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start with
vinifera fruit.

Tom S

Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
you need to add tartaric. I have a heavy duty juicer, which I use it
when making apple wine. I usually use granny smith apples and blend
with a white wine. Depending on the blend, you can have plenty of
malic. I enjoy it myself, and do not introduce a malactic culture.
Tim
Tom S wrote:
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste
as
> >close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic,
but I
> >am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do
their
> >thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite?
And if
> >there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
> >fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad
consequences if
> >malolactic didn't take?
>

Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
you need to add tartaric. I have a heavy duty juicer, which I use it
when making apple wine. I usually use granny smith apples and blend
with a white wine. Depending on the blend, you can have plenty of
malic. I enjoy it myself, and do not introduce a malactic culture.
Tim
Tom S wrote:
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste
as
> >close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic,
but I
> >am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do
their
> >thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite?
And if
> >there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
> >fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad
consequences if
> >malolactic didn't take?
>

Tom S wrote:


> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you
> could slip it under a door. :^/
>

Tom, you are absolutely correct. I once used a yeast in an apple wine that
was suppose to be good at using up malic acid. I was concerned that the
wine made from all tart apple juice would be too acidic. The end result
was an extremely flat wine. The yeast did its job but the product was not
good.

Tom S wrote:


> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you
> could slip it under a door. :^/
>

Tom, you are absolutely correct. I once used a yeast in an apple wine that
was suppose to be good at using up malic acid. I was concerned that the
wine made from all tart apple juice would be too acidic. The end result
was an extremely flat wine. The yeast did its job but the product was not
good.

Thanks for the advice. Couldn't I just add extra tartaric after malolactic
if it tasted flat? Since many of the best apple ciders contain residual
sugar to bring out the apples, I made the vinifera comment to distinguish
what I am making (dry, full-bodied apple wine) from apple cider. In my
opinion, the best country wines mimic the styles of vinifera wines--that's
why I like Jack's recipes--the wines don't taste like the starting fruit.

It's pretty hard to grow vinifera vines here in Georgia (or impossible),
but I can drive an hour into the mountains and get a bushel of apples for
about $5. That's why, if I could get something even remotely resembling the
buttery flavor of a chardonnay, I would be a pretty happy guy. In addition,
malolactic takes away the "fruity" taste in wines, so I thought that might
move my wine even one more step away from cider and one more toward wine.

Vic

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S
>

Thanks for the advice. Couldn't I just add extra tartaric after malolactic
if it tasted flat? Since many of the best apple ciders contain residual
sugar to bring out the apples, I made the vinifera comment to distinguish
what I am making (dry, full-bodied apple wine) from apple cider. In my
opinion, the best country wines mimic the styles of vinifera wines--that's
why I like Jack's recipes--the wines don't taste like the starting fruit.

It's pretty hard to grow vinifera vines here in Georgia (or impossible),
but I can drive an hour into the mountains and get a bushel of apples for
about $5. That's why, if I could get something even remotely resembling the
buttery flavor of a chardonnay, I would be a pretty happy guy. In addition,
malolactic takes away the "fruity" taste in wines, so I thought that might
move my wine even one more step away from cider and one more toward wine.

Vic

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S
>

By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S
>

By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought I
could treat MLF like a normal wine's.

Thanks,

Vic


"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S
>

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
t...
> By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
> more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought
I
> could treat MLF like a normal wine's.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vic

Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
t...
> By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is much
> more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought
I
> could treat MLF like a normal wine's.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vic

Vic,
Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
winemaking.
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

Lum,

I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness winemakers
don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.

I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
flatness MLF brings?

Thanks for bearing with me.

Vic


"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> t...
>> By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is
>> much
>> more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought
> I
>> could treat MLF like a normal wine's.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Vic
>
> Vic,
> Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
> so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
> content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
> winemaking.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>
>

Lum,

I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness winemakers
don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.

I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
flatness MLF brings?

Thanks for bearing with me.

Vic


"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> t...
>> By the way, I started with dessert apples, so what is in there now is
>> much
>> more like the acid profile of a normal wine. That's one reason I thought
> I
>> could treat MLF like a normal wine's.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Vic
>
> Vic,
> Grapes are the only fruit containing significant amounts of tartaric acid,
> so your desert apples wont have the acid profile of grapes. A high sugar
> content and the tartaric acid are the main reasons grapes unique for
> winemaking.
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>
>

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
...
> Lum,
>
> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
winemakers
> don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>
> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with >
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

I did misunderstand Vic. Sorry.
Grapes contain about equal amounts of amlic and tartaric acid and a tiny
amount of citric acid. Most acid blends contain about equal parts of malic,
tartaric and citric, so acid blend has much more citric acid than grapes.
But, I do get your point.

> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
> flatness MLF brings?

I don't know why you can't do MLF. But, the butter character depends on how
MLF is conducted.
More MLF info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt13.html

> Thanks for bearing with me.

Good luck,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
...
> Lum,
>
> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
winemakers
> don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>
> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with >
acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.

I did misunderstand Vic. Sorry.
Grapes contain about equal amounts of amlic and tartaric acid and a tiny
amount of citric acid. Most acid blends contain about equal parts of malic,
tartaric and citric, so acid blend has much more citric acid than grapes.
But, I do get your point.

> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
> flatness MLF brings?

I don't know why you can't do MLF. But, the butter character depends on how
MLF is conducted.
More MLF info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt13.html

> Thanks for bearing with me.

Good luck,
Lum
Del Mar, California, USA

Vic - Go ahead and make it with the ML. You've only got $5.00 in the wine.
Report back with your results. If you want a Chardonnay-like wint throw in
some StaVin oak beans. Can't hurt. I've tasted apple wine aged in oak
barrels and it's pretty good.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
...
> Lum,
>
> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
> winemakers don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>
> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
> acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.
>
> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
> flatness MLF brings?
>
> Thanks for bearing with me.
>
> Vic

Vic - Go ahead and make it with the ML. You've only got $5.00 in the wine.
Report back with your results. If you want a Chardonnay-like wint throw in
some StaVin oak beans. Can't hurt. I've tasted apple wine aged in oak
barrels and it's pretty good.

Bill Frazier
Olathe, Kansas USA

"Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
...
> Lum,
>
> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring to
> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
> winemakers don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>
> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
> acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.
>
> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
> flatness MLF brings?
>
> Thanks for bearing with me.
>
> Vic

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S

Yup - a full blown, uncontrolled MLF in a malic wine is_always_a
disaster.

"Tom S" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> . ..
>>I am making about 35 gallons of apple cider, and I want it to taste as
>>close to vinifera wine as possible. I want to encourage malolactic, but I
>>am worried it has too much sulfite to let the malolactic bacteria do their
>>thing effectively. Is there something I can do to measure sulfite? And
>>if there's too much, is there something I can do to make malolactic
>>fermentation happen, anyway? Would inoculation create bad consequences if
>>malolactic didn't take?
>
> I'm no expert on apple cider, but I'd guess that since the dominant acid
> in apples is malic, if you run ML on it the cider/wine will end up so flat
> you could slip it under a door. :^/
>
> If you want to make a wine that tastes like vinifera, you need to start
> with vinifera fruit.
>
> Tom S

Yup - a full blown, uncontrolled MLF in a malic wine is_always_a
disaster.

Comments interspersed:

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
> begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
> you need to add tartaric.

Adding tartaric will take the wine "out of character" (so to speak) so I
prefer to use malic (and just a touch of citric) when making apple wine.
However, since it is Vic's intended purpose to take this wine "out of
character", then yes, tartaric should be used. HTH

Comments interspersed:

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Before worrying about malic, make sure your juice has enough acid to
> begin with. Much cider is made without real cider apples. The result is
> you need to add tartaric.

Adding tartaric will take the wine "out of character" (so to speak) so I
prefer to use malic (and just a touch of citric) when making apple wine.
However, since it is Vic's intended purpose to take this wine "out of
character", then yes, tartaric should be used. HTH

Hi Vic

Lum is right. Grapes do contain about equal amounts of tartaric/malic.
Apples contain almost all malic. So - by adding acid blend you have
not actually achieved a grape like balance. (eg the malic is still greater
than the tartaric). If you want to start experimenting with acid
management, I suggest you get the individual acids to work with and
throw that acid blend away. HTH

Frederick



"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Lum,
>>
>> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
>> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring
>> to
>> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
>> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
> winemakers
>> don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>>
>> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
>> >
> acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
>> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.
>
> I did misunderstand Vic. Sorry.
> Grapes contain about equal amounts of amlic and tartaric acid and a tiny
> amount of citric acid. Most acid blends contain about equal parts of
> malic,
> tartaric and citric, so acid blend has much more citric acid than grapes.
> But, I do get your point.
>
>> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
>> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
>> flatness MLF brings?
>
> I don't know why you can't do MLF. But, the butter character depends on
> how
> MLF is conducted.
> More MLF info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
>> Thanks for bearing with me.
>
> Good luck,
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>

Hi Vic

Lum is right. Grapes do contain about equal amounts of tartaric/malic.
Apples contain almost all malic. So - by adding acid blend you have
not actually achieved a grape like balance. (eg the malic is still greater
than the tartaric). If you want to start experimenting with acid
management, I suggest you get the individual acids to work with and
throw that acid blend away. HTH

Frederick



"Lum" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Vic Whirlwind" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Lum,
>>
>> I think you misunderstand me. The dessert apples are like a blank slate,
>> since they are lacking in acid and tannin. Effectively, all they bring
>> to
>> the table is body. In fact, grapes, apples, and sometimes pears give the
>> best body, since they are really the only fruits whose fruitiness
> winemakers
>> don't have to counteract by watering down the juice.
>>
>> I have already supplemented what was not there (normal acid levels) with
>> >
> acid blend which, of course, is similar to the acid profile of vinifera
>> grapes. That's why these wines' acid profile IS like that of grapes now.
>
> I did misunderstand Vic. Sorry.
> Grapes contain about equal amounts of amlic and tartaric acid and a tiny
> amount of citric acid. Most acid blends contain about equal parts of
> malic,
> tartaric and citric, so acid blend has much more citric acid than grapes.
> But, I do get your point.
>
>> SO, if what I have in there now effectively mimics the acid profile of
>> grapes, could I then do MLF, later adding tartaric acid to counteract any
>> flatness MLF brings?
>
> I don't know why you can't do MLF. But, the butter character depends on
> how
> MLF is conducted.
> More MLF info here http://home.att.net/~lumeisenman/chapt13.html
>
>> Thanks for bearing with me.
>
> Good luck,
> Lum
> Del Mar, California, USA
>
>