I read in the newspaper that an upscale restaurant will automatically tack
on a twenty percent tip on each customers bill. The article implied that
this would become a trend.

Tom

In article >,
"Tom or Mary" > wrote:

> I read in the newspaper that an upscale restaurant will automatically tack
> on a twenty percent tip on each customers bill. The article implied that
> this would become a trend.

I doubt it, at least not in the United States.

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 17:09:54 -0400, "Tom or Mary" > wrote:

>I read in the newspaper that an upscale restaurant will automatically tack
>on a twenty percent tip on each customers bill. The article implied that
>this would become a trend.

Yeah, well, you can read almost anything in a newspaper if you look around
enough. What's your point? At least what country are you speaking of?

-- Larry

In Europe this is quite the practice to include a tip into the bill. I doubt
this will catch on in North America. I do it in my place for groups of 12 or
more...but they know that before hand.


"Tom or Mary" > wrote in message
...
> I read in the newspaper that an upscale restaurant will automatically tack
> on a twenty percent tip on each customers bill. The article implied that
> this would become a trend.
>
> Tom
>
>

Gimme a Break wrote:

> In Europe this is quite the practice to include a tip into the bill. I
> doubt this will catch on in North America. I do it in my place for groups
> of 12 or more...but they know that before hand.

What do you mean by "Europe"?

You know Europe...it contains countries like, Italy, Germany, England,
Spain, France, etc....you know Europe...pick up a globe or an Atlas and have
a read...you may learn something.


"Thomas Müller" > wrote in message
...
> Gimme a Break wrote:
>
> > In Europe this is quite the practice to include a tip into the bill. I
> > doubt this will catch on in North America. I do it in my place for
groups
> > of 12 or more...but they know that before hand.
>
> What do you mean by "Europe"?

Gimme a Break > topposts,

>You know Europe...it contains countries like, Italy, Germany, England,
>Spain, France, etc....you know Europe...pick up a globe or an Atlas and have
>a read...you may learn something.

>> What do you mean by "Europe"?

I never recall having a tip automatically added on in the U.K.
You tip in restaurants similarly to the U.S., but not in pubs.
(Unless is a food-desintation pub.)

In Italy, they'd add a cover charge (fixed fee per table
or per person), and then a service charge (varies, but something
like 5%). I think this is more common in tourist areas.
The expectation is the diner will add on to bring the total tip
up into the 10% - 15% range.

I assume there are other European countries where the custom
is not to tip hardly at all.

Steve

Yes, i know europe, its all around me. And first, it doesnt make sense to
say "In Europe this is quite the practice..." since as you say, europe
consists of many different countries. And second, I've been to restaurants
in 8 different european countries and I never had a tip on the bill.

Thomas

> You know Europe...it contains countries like, Italy, Germany, England,
> Spain, France, etc....you know Europe...pick up a globe or an Atlas and
> have a read...you may learn something.
>
>
> "Thomas Müller" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Gimme a Break wrote:
>>
>> > In Europe this is quite the practice to include a tip into the bill. I
>> > doubt this will catch on in North America. I do it in my place for
> groups
>> > of 12 or more...but they know that before hand.
>>
>> What do you mean by "Europe"?

Jesus, this is a prime example of why auto gratuity is put onto bills.
People have conflicting ideas and ever changing personalities. The only
thing that stays the same, is that there are service people who are trying
to make a living dealing with people like you. In my opinion, there should
be an auto gratuity everywhere. The old meaning of "gratuity" means "to
ensure great service". To, ENSURE great service; and it was primarily given
at the beginning of the meal. As a restaurant manager myself, one difficulty
I have is convincing my service people that more sales equals higher tips.
If there was guaranteed gratuity percentage based on sales, than that would
be good for the servers (more money), that would be good for my restaurant
(higher sales so they can make more money), and it would be good for the
guests (higher quality food through suggestive offers and an ENSURED good
service). I would ensure them because it would allow me the opportunity to
turn over any server who was not performing to the highest degree. I am sure
that it would be a prime work industry as well where people would want to
work; applications for people to replace the bad ones would be plentiful.

Any other Ideas you all may have; something a bit more inspiring than where
exactly Europe is?

Jesse

--


Primary:
Priority:
"Thomas Müller" > wrote in message
...
> Yes, i know europe, its all around me. And first, it doesnt make sense to
> say "In Europe this is quite the practice..." since as you say, europe
> consists of many different countries. And second, I've been to restaurants
> in 8 different european countries and I never had a tip on the bill.
>
> Thomas
>
>> You know Europe...it contains countries like, Italy, Germany, England,
>> Spain, France, etc....you know Europe...pick up a globe or an Atlas and
>> have a read...you may learn something.
>>
>>
>> "Thomas Müller" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Gimme a Break wrote:
>>>
>>> > In Europe this is quite the practice to include a tip into the bill. I
>>> > doubt this will catch on in North America. I do it in my place for
>> groups
>>> > of 12 or more...but they know that before hand.
>>>
>>> What do you mean by "Europe"?
>

Can you dine out with an average menu price of $17.00? If so, great, but can
the rest of the general public?

Lets break it down for you.

Its Friday night with a restaurant capacity of 200 people. You have 60
tables in your restaurant. You are currently on a wait. Lets assume that you
are allowing four tables per server; which requires 15 servers. You have
somewhere inside 20 to 25 tickets in the kitchen at any given moment, which
requires a minimum of 5 cooks, maybe more depending on how what your menu
is. You have one dish washer, one prep cook, three hosts and three managers
on duty (a kitchen manager, floor manager, and GM). Lets say you have an
average turn time of 45min/table. Here is your break down:

15 servers @ $2.13/hr = $31.95
5 cooks @ avrg. $9.00/hr = $45.00
Dish&Prep @ avrg. $8.00/hr = $16.00
3 hosts @ avrg. $3.00 (if tipped)
2 managers @ aprox. $13.46/hr (salaried $35,000,10hr days,5days/wk)
1 GM @ $19.23/hr (salaried $60,000,10hr days,6days/wk)
TOTAL LABOR PER HOUR = $134.64

Gross sales = aprox. $3,120 (80 tables in one hour, avrg. 3 guests, at avrg.
$13.00/person)
after labor = $2,985.36
after food cost = $2,080.56 (avrg. 29% of gross sales; allowing for waste)
after bar cost = $ 1,768.56 (avrg. 10% of gross sales)
after maintenance fees, building leases, electricity, depreciation,
contracted services, supplies, etc.

You see where I am going with this? Lets keep in mind that this is during
the peak hour. We are not taking into consideration the two hours before
this that all the employees where on the clock setting up for the volume at
minimal sales.

Bottom line, if we raise prices, people are less likely to eat out. It is a
mental thing. If they see prices within their budget, they will spend, in
theory, the same amount, more often. By raising prices and wages, the two
would in fact cancel themselves out. The difference being, less guests =
less profit for the restaurant = no restaurant = no job.

People have spent many years working the restaurant business, my philosophy,
if a multi-million dollar company is suggesting you act in a certain way,
listen to them, they are multi-million dollar companies for a reason. Which
is the same reason you have yet to see required tipping. We may debate about
it, but until it is a factual way to increase guest count and increase
profit, it will not happen.

Sincerely,
Jesse

--


Primary:
Priority:
"Alan Moorman" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:27:21 -0500, "Jesse Robinson"
> > wrote:
>
>>Jesus, this is a prime example of why auto gratuity is put onto bills.
>>People have conflicting ideas and ever changing personalities. The only
>>thing that stays the same, is that there are service people who are trying
>>to make a living dealing with people like you. In my opinion, there should
>>be an auto gratuity everywhere. The old meaning of "gratuity" means "to
>>ensure great service". To, ENSURE great service; and it was primarily
>>given
>>at the beginning of the meal. As a restaurant manager myself, one
>>difficulty
>>I have is convincing my service people that more sales equals higher tips.
>>If there was guaranteed gratuity percentage based on sales, than that
>>would
>>be good for the servers (more money), that would be good for my restaurant
>>(higher sales so they can make more money), and it would be good for the
>>guests (higher quality food through suggestive offers and an ENSURED good
>>service). I would ensure them because it would allow me the opportunity to
>>turn over any server who was not performing to the highest degree. I am
>>sure
>>that it would be a prime work industry as well where people would want to
>>work; applications for people to replace the bad ones would be plentiful.
>>
>>Any other Ideas you all may have; something a bit more inspiring than
>>where
>>exactly Europe is?
>>
>>Jesse
>
>
> If you want an auto-gratuity added onto all bills, why not just pay the
> wait staff well and raise the prices to accommodate.
>
> Then, no confusion!
>
> Sheesh!
>
>
>
> Dirty Sam Bonney
>
>
> Arrrrrrrrrrr!
>

Well said!

"Jesse Robinson" > wrote in message
news:lbHZe.7263$P34.2192@okepread07...
> Can you dine out with an average menu price of $17.00? If so, great, but
> can the rest of the general public?
>
> Lets break it down for you.
>
> Its Friday night with a restaurant capacity of 200 people. You have 60
> tables in your restaurant. You are currently on a wait. Lets assume that
> you are allowing four tables per server; which requires 15 servers. You
> have somewhere inside 20 to 25 tickets in the kitchen at any given moment,
> which requires a minimum of 5 cooks, maybe more depending on how what your
> menu is. You have one dish washer, one prep cook, three hosts and three
> managers on duty (a kitchen manager, floor manager, and GM). Lets say you
> have an average turn time of 45min/table. Here is your break down:
>
> 15 servers @ $2.13/hr = $31.95
> 5 cooks @ avrg. $9.00/hr = $45.00
> Dish&Prep @ avrg. $8.00/hr = $16.00
> 3 hosts @ avrg. $3.00 (if tipped)
> 2 managers @ aprox. $13.46/hr (salaried $35,000,10hr days,5days/wk)
> 1 GM @ $19.23/hr (salaried $60,000,10hr days,6days/wk)
> TOTAL LABOR PER HOUR = $134.64
>
> Gross sales = aprox. $3,120 (80 tables in one hour, avrg. 3 guests, at
> avrg. $13.00/person)
> after labor = $2,985.36
> after food cost = $2,080.56 (avrg. 29% of gross sales; allowing for waste)
> after bar cost = $ 1,768.56 (avrg. 10% of gross sales)
> after maintenance fees, building leases, electricity, depreciation,
> contracted services, supplies, etc.
>
> You see where I am going with this? Lets keep in mind that this is during
> the peak hour. We are not taking into consideration the two hours before
> this that all the employees where on the clock setting up for the volume
> at minimal sales.
>
> Bottom line, if we raise prices, people are less likely to eat out. It is
> a mental thing. If they see prices within their budget, they will spend,
> in theory, the same amount, more often. By raising prices and wages, the
> two would in fact cancel themselves out. The difference being, less guests
> = less profit for the restaurant = no restaurant = no job.
>
> People have spent many years working the restaurant business, my
> philosophy, if a multi-million dollar company is suggesting you act in a
> certain way, listen to them, they are multi-million dollar companies for a
> reason. Which is the same reason you have yet to see required tipping. We
> may debate about it, but until it is a factual way to increase guest count
> and increase profit, it will not happen.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jesse
>
> --
>
>
> Primary:
> Priority:
> "Alan Moorman" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 18:27:21 -0500, "Jesse Robinson"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>Jesus, this is a prime example of why auto gratuity is put onto bills.
>>>People have conflicting ideas and ever changing personalities. The only
>>>thing that stays the same, is that there are service people who are
>>>trying
>>>to make a living dealing with people like you. In my opinion, there
>>>should
>>>be an auto gratuity everywhere. The old meaning of "gratuity" means "to
>>>ensure great service". To, ENSURE great service; and it was primarily
>>>given
>>>at the beginning of the meal. As a restaurant manager myself, one
>>>difficulty
>>>I have is convincing my service people that more sales equals higher
>>>tips.
>>>If there was guaranteed gratuity percentage based on sales, than that
>>>would
>>>be good for the servers (more money), that would be good for my
>>>restaurant
>>>(higher sales so they can make more money), and it would be good for the
>>>guests (higher quality food through suggestive offers and an ENSURED good
>>>service). I would ensure them because it would allow me the opportunity
>>>to
>>>turn over any server who was not performing to the highest degree. I am
>>>sure
>>>that it would be a prime work industry as well where people would want to
>>>work; applications for people to replace the bad ones would be plentiful.
>>>
>>>Any other Ideas you all may have; something a bit more inspiring than
>>>where
>>>exactly Europe is?
>>>
>>>Jesse
>>
>>
>> If you want an auto-gratuity added onto all bills, why not just pay the
>> wait staff well and raise the prices to accommodate.
>>
>> Then, no confusion!
>>
>> Sheesh!
>>
>>
>>
>> Dirty Sam Bonney
>>
>>
>> Arrrrrrrrrrr!
>>
>
>

The current system misrepresents the true costs of a meal and service.
Servers are pressured by need and by restaurant management to
underreport their tips which makes them (and society!) miss out on
social security benefits, etc.

Steven Shaw of the New York Times does a good job of explaining why a
service charge makes sense and is more honest and fair. His idea is a
sort of halfway point between the current system and how most other
businesses run, which build in service, raw materials, etc. in their
total costs to the customer. Why the restaurant business is so
different, I do not understand, but plenty of restaurants who have
dumped the unfair tipping system for service charges do succeed (and
seem to have better service). Shaw's idea should not hurt the costs
to a restaurant too much and would protect the servers.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...7/ai_n15326945

Some say service would go down if the server did not have the threat
of getting no tip, but if mamagement did an appropriate job of hiring,
training, and disciplining, I think service would improve and the
serving profession would gain more respect. The industry would also
have less resentment which leads to a high amount of theft and
revenge. I'd like to see a commission added for servers who sold
higher amounts. This would also drive up restaurant profits.

Why should often-ignorant customers get to choose how much a server is
paid for each transaction? I don't get to choose the pay of the Wawa
clerks who rings up my coffee if I don't feel she smiled enough at me.
Food servers are different than salespeople who work on commission,
and they are not independent contractors who get to choose how to run
their stations. They should be compensated fairly.

Nellie Paris

Nellie Paris > wrote:

>Why should often-ignorant customers get to choose how much a server is
>paid for each transaction? I don't get to choose the pay of the Wawa
>clerks who rings up my coffee if I don't feel she smiled enough at me.
>Food servers are different than salespeople who work on commission,
>and they are not independent contractors who get to choose how to run
>their stations. They should be compensated fairly.

Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
based systems, so please don't blame the diners.

Steve

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:36:02 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
Pope) wrote:
>
>Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
>based systems, so please don't blame the diners.

I *am* a diner, and I hate this system. It is socially awkward. I
just want to eat and pay without the task of punishment and reward.
That is the manager's job.

Waitstaff have no choice about the system in most places, btw, except
to work in the profession or not.

Nellie Paris

I couldn't agree with you more, Nellie. Diners are dining for convenience,
not management, that is what management is there for. It is our job to shape
and teach the staff of servers on proper service. The hardest thing to teach
is the fact, better service equals better tips; especially when that is not
all the time true. Taking it out of the guests hands would make our job as
managers easier. How do you explain a two dollar tip on a fifty dollar bill
when the service person is, in fact, one of your best servers.

I was just looking over my server's tip percentage report today which also
happens to have their sales percentages as well, it is a corporate mandate
to say that more sales equals higher tips, when the reality of it is in
black and white on this report. Some of my worse sellers are making higher
percentages of tips, which tells me, they are making just as much as the
ones who are doing their job.

By offering the auto-gratuity, you can ensure the guests that they will get
the proper service for their dollar, and you ensure the servers that they
will make money in regards to their efforts. It is a win win situation,
hands down, no argument against it.

Let guests be guests and managers be managers, period.

--


Primary:
Priority:
"Nellie Paris" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:36:02 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
> Pope) wrote:
>>
>>Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
>>based systems, so please don't blame the diners.
>
> I *am* a diner, and I hate this system. It is socially awkward. I
> just want to eat and pay without the task of punishment and reward.
> That is the manager's job.
>
> Waitstaff have no choice about the system in most places, btw, except
> to work in the profession or not.
>
> Nellie Paris

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 19:11:14 -0500, "Jesse Robinson"
> wrote:

>I couldn't agree with you more, Nellie. Diners are dining for convenience,
>not management, that is what management is there for. It is our job to shape
>and teach the staff of servers on proper service. The hardest thing to teach
>is the fact, better service equals better tips; especially when that is not
>all the time true. Taking it out of the guests hands would make our job as
>managers easier. How do you explain a two dollar tip on a fifty dollar bill
>when the service person is, in fact, one of your best servers.
>
>I was just looking over my server's tip percentage report today which also
>happens to have their sales percentages as well, it is a corporate mandate
>to say that more sales equals higher tips, when the reality of it is in
>black and white on this report. Some of my worse sellers are making higher
>percentages of tips, which tells me, they are making just as much as the
>ones who are doing their job.
>
>By offering the auto-gratuity, you can ensure the guests that they will get
>the proper service for their dollar, and you ensure the servers that they
>will make money in regards to their efforts. It is a win win situation,
>hands down, no argument against it.
>
>Let guests be guests and managers be managers, period.

Bravo Jesse, for being a wise and attentive manager. I've said it
before that research shows little correlation between good service and
high tips, and your analysis of sales/tip percentages supports this.

In fact, I hate pushy service, especially the canned kind in the chain
restaurants where you know that the server is being forced to
constantly upsell from a script -- because some corporate hack
somewhere has determined that this will increase overall sales.

Regards, Nellie Paris

On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:36:02 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
Pope) wrote:

>Nellie Paris > wrote:
>
>>Why should often-ignorant customers get to choose how much a server is
>>paid for each transaction? I don't get to choose the pay of the Wawa
>>clerks who rings up my coffee if I don't feel she smiled enough at me.
>>Food servers are different than salespeople who work on commission,
>>and they are not independent contractors who get to choose how to run
>>their stations. They should be compensated fairly.
>
>Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
>based systems, so please don't blame the diners.

And servers *DO* get to choose how they act. They choose whether or
not they act friendly to a customer, or even whether they service the
customer by getting the extra napkins, new silverware, or even refill
a drink.

I have been to so many restaurants with horrible service, that i
rarely go out to eat anymore. That is a shame, but it just got so bad
I thought it was more irritating to go out than it was to prepare my
own meal at home.

I have never not tipped a server due to a lateness with food (I know
the kitchen has an an influence there) or anything else I thought was
beyond their control.

However, I have left _NO_TIP_ many times when I have had food
literally dropped or thrown on the table in front of me, never to see
my server again - and have had to ask other servers or the host/ess to
get something for me, or to get my check so I can pay and leave.

When I receive bad (and I am talking distinctly _BAD_ ) service, I
leave no tip. If a server does such a awful job without seeming to
care, I think they deserve that. If a server performs satisfactory,
even if it is unremarkable, I leave 15%. Above satisfactory, 20%.
Excellent service, 25%.

I would not mind a mandatory service fee if it were not a percentage
of my meal.....why should I pay more to a server because they brought
me seafood instead of chicken? Was the plate that much heavier for
them?

-MR

On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:48:46 GMT, Nellie Paris >
wrote:


>
>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...7/ai_n15326945
>


I thought this article was quite interesting. I find it very
interesting that the reseach found that people do not tip based on
service mostly.

I look for good service, so I guess I must be in the minority. I
mean, it doesn't take much to notice the difference (its not like it
is much of a discussion at the table unless the server is particularly
good or particularly bad).

MR

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:16:24 -0400, MW > wrote:

>On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:36:02 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
>Pope) wrote:
>
>>Nellie Paris > wrote:
>>
>>>Why should often-ignorant customers get to choose how much a server is
>>>paid for each transaction? I don't get to choose the pay of the Wawa
>>>clerks who rings up my coffee if I don't feel she smiled enough at me.
>>>Food servers are different than salespeople who work on commission,
>>>and they are not independent contractors who get to choose how to run
>>>their stations. They should be compensated fairly.
>>
>>Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
>>based systems, so please don't blame the diners.
>
>And servers *DO* get to choose how they act. They choose whether or
>not they act friendly to a customer, or even whether they service the
>customer by getting the extra napkins, new silverware, or even refill
>a drink.
>
>I have been to so many restaurants with horrible service, that i
>rarely go out to eat anymore. That is a shame, but it just got so bad
>I thought it was more irritating to go out than it was to prepare my
>own meal at home.
>
>I have never not tipped a server due to a lateness with food (I know
>the kitchen has an an influence there) or anything else I thought was
>beyond their control.
>
>However, I have left _NO_TIP_ many times when I have had food
>literally dropped or thrown on the table in front of me, never to see
>my server again - and have had to ask other servers or the host/ess to
>get something for me, or to get my check so I can pay and leave.
>
>When I receive bad (and I am talking distinctly _BAD_ ) service, I
>leave no tip. If a server does such a awful job without seeming to
>care, I think they deserve that. If a server performs satisfactory,
>even if it is unremarkable, I leave 15%. Above satisfactory, 20%.
>Excellent service, 25%.
>
>I would not mind a mandatory service fee if it were not a percentage
>of my meal.....why should I pay more to a server because they brought
>me seafood instead of chicken? Was the plate that much heavier for
>them?

If this tipping system is so great, why do we have such bad overall
service? I do not think a low tip encourages a server to reconsider
the quality of service he or she is giving. Do you? The servers just
assumes the low/non-tipper is cheap.

It's of course a very imperfect system, but the cost of the food often
reflects more work on the part of the restaurant staff. Not always, I
know. Maybe a service charge could replect the time spent at the
table, in an ideal world. I am not really for a percentage of the
bill as a charge either. I would rather see service built into the
menu prices, with no tip or service charge at all. If you don't like
your chicken, you can't decide not to pay for it, so why do we get to
decide what to pay for the service?

I wonder what kind of management is going on in the places where you
have such shoddy service. Why aren't these servers being disciplined,
retrained, or fired? We need more managers like Jesse!

Nellie Paris

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 10:26:53 -0400, MW > wrote:

>On Sun, 02 Oct 2005 15:48:46 GMT, Nellie Paris >
>wrote:
>
>
>>
>>http://www.findarticles.com/p/articl...7/ai_n15326945
>>
>
>
>I thought this article was quite interesting. I find it very
>interesting that the reseach found that people do not tip based on
>service mostly.
>
>I look for good service, so I guess I must be in the minority. I
>mean, it doesn't take much to notice the difference (its not like it
>is much of a discussion at the table unless the server is particularly
>good or particularly bad).

I noticed in serving for 15 years that people have vastly differing
opinions of what good service is, or even what friendliness is.

I did not believe on getting buddy-buddy with people I was serving (I
find that intrusive) nor would I ever have *touched* them, but to some
that would mean I was cold and unfriendly. I would certainly never
stoop down at tables. I don't believe a server should have a leering
smile at all times either, but some patrons seem to be obsessed with
how much you smile.

I was also taught to space courses and never pile courses up on the
table at the same time, but some customers feel that is slow service.

Nellie Paris

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:00:20 GMT, Nellie Paris >
wrote:

>>
>>I thought this article was quite interesting. I find it very
>>interesting that the reseach found that people do not tip based on
>>service mostly.
>>
>>I look for good service, so I guess I must be in the minority. I
>>mean, it doesn't take much to notice the difference (its not like it
>>is much of a discussion at the table unless the server is particularly
>>good or particularly bad).
>
>I noticed in serving for 15 years that people have vastly differing
>opinions of what good service is, or even what friendliness is.
>
>I did not believe on getting buddy-buddy with people I was serving (I
>find that intrusive) nor would I ever have *touched* them, but to some
>that would mean I was cold and unfriendly. I would certainly never
>stoop down at tables. I don't believe a server should have a leering
>smile at all times either, but some patrons seem to be obsessed with
>how much you smile.
>
>I was also taught to space courses and never pile courses up on the
>table at the same time, but some customers feel that is slow service.
>

Mmmm. I am quite flexible with what I consider good service.
Standard good service I would call cordial, polite, and lack of a
frown or blank expression (mild smile or friendliness is fine). I
know attentiveness is subjective, but at least being around so I can
signal you is fine, too.

The first time, years ago, I went into a restaurant and the server was
buddy-buddy, I was a little taken aback. I don't mind it, but I do
find it a little odd.



MR

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:56:48 GMT, Nellie Paris >
wrote:

>>When I receive bad (and I am talking distinctly _BAD_ ) service, I
>>leave no tip. If a server does such a awful job without seeming to
>>care, I think they deserve that. If a server performs satisfactory,
>>even if it is unremarkable, I leave 15%. Above satisfactory, 20%.
>>Excellent service, 25%.
>>
>>I would not mind a mandatory service fee if it were not a percentage
>>of my meal.....why should I pay more to a server because they brought
>>me seafood instead of chicken? Was the plate that much heavier for
>>them?
>
>If this tipping system is so great, why do we have such bad overall
>service? I do not think a low tip encourages a server to reconsider
>the quality of service he or she is giving. Do you? The servers just
>assumes the low/non-tipper is cheap.

Actually, yeah, maybe they do think that. When I ask other people if
they tip for bad service (or when they are with me and we get bad
service), they insist that it is required. Some even insist on 20%
for bad service!

I had an employee some years ago I had this discussion with; it was
right in the middle of the wave of bad service I mentioned, and he
insisted that even with bad service the server should receive 15% at
least. He said that was how they made a living.

I pointed out that they could at least do the minimum things for their
job to earn it (and described the horrible service I had the night
before - soup bowl landed on the table with a splash, no apology or
clean up, lots of other problems, no manager to talk to). He still
didn't agree with my not leaving a tip.

>It's of course a very imperfect system, but the cost of the food often
>reflects more work on the part of the restaurant staff. Not always, I
>know. Maybe a service charge could replect the time spent at the
>table, in an ideal world. I am not really for a percentage of the
>bill as a charge either. I would rather see service built into the
>menu prices, with no tip or service charge at all. If you don't like
>your chicken, you can't decide not to pay for it, so why do we get to
>decide what to pay for the service?

Well, actually, you can decide to send it back. And if things were
really bad still, not pay for it (or eat it), or switch to a different
item on the menu.

>I wonder what kind of management is going on in the places where you
>have such shoddy service. Why aren't these servers being disciplined,
>retrained, or fired? We need more managers like Jesse!

I'd like to know myself. I know two restaurant owners, and they both
tell me it is very difficult to retain help - and find good help. One
who has had restaurants for a number of years tells me the quality of
help has fallen dramatically over the years.

I agree with you about Jesse based on the stuff I've read.


MR

On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 20:56:48 GMT, Nellie Paris >
wrote:


>It's of course a very imperfect system, but the cost of the food often
>reflects more work on the part of the restaurant staff. Not always, I
>know. Maybe a service charge could replect the time spent at the
>table, in an ideal world. I am not really for a percentage of the
>bill as a charge either. I would rather see service built into the
>menu prices, with no tip or service charge at all.

Ah, I forgot to mention - I agree with this. I would gladly pay a
general higher price instead of tipping a percentage.

Is tipping shared with the kitchen staff ever? The reason I ask is
that the new law in NY regarding mandatory % tipping I find
outrageous. If the kitchen staff received some of the money, I would
not feel as much that way.

You see, to me, it has always bugged me when a server gets more money
for walking from the kitchen to the table with lobster instead of
salad. Really, how does what they bring me change the level of work
they do? Sure, there is the rare dish you may need to bring something
extra for (like wet wipes for ribs or something like that), but rarely
does what I order make them work any more or less than usual!

Now, if the kitchen staff received some of that money, I could
understand. It is a bit more difficult to prepare the lobster than it
is to prepare the salad.

MR

Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate them. I agree with you on
not making the auto-gratuity based on a percentage. It is true that a plate
of ribs or a salad bar are two worlds of difference. A simply formula could
be put into place, amount of people, number of courses (apps, entree,
desserts, etc.), maybe beverages, something like that anyway. And I stand
true that this type of change would offer better selections.

I agree, the amount of "good applicants" or just any applicants has
drastically decreased in the years. We use to get ten to twenty applications
a month, now, we are lucky to get five. And even less of those five, if any,
are what we would consider "good". That leaves us in a less-than-positive
situation. We are almost forced to hire these people just to keep our doors
open. An increase in server profits would open that door. "Good" servers
might want to stay servers instead of quitting to get a "real job".

We need to find a way to redefine what the server industry is. To many
people see it as a supplement while they educate for better things. Others
see it as a dead-end job. It is rare to hear someone proudly express, "I am
a server." Unless of course, they make a lucrative living doing so.

Jesse

--


Primary:
Priority:
"MW" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 2 Oct 2005 18:36:02 +0000 (UTC), (Steve
> Pope) wrote:
>
>>Nellie Paris > wrote:
>>
>>>Why should often-ignorant customers get to choose how much a server is
>>>paid for each transaction? I don't get to choose the pay of the Wawa
>>>clerks who rings up my coffee if I don't feel she smiled enough at me.
>>>Food servers are different than salespeople who work on commission,
>>>and they are not independent contractors who get to choose how to run
>>>their stations. They should be compensated fairly.
>>
>>Restaurants and waitstaff are free to implement service-charge
>>based systems, so please don't blame the diners.
>
> And servers *DO* get to choose how they act. They choose whether or
> not they act friendly to a customer, or even whether they service the
> customer by getting the extra napkins, new silverware, or even refill
> a drink.
>
> I have been to so many restaurants with horrible service, that i
> rarely go out to eat anymore. That is a shame, but it just got so bad
> I thought it was more irritating to go out than it was to prepare my
> own meal at home.
>
> I have never not tipped a server due to a lateness with food (I know
> the kitchen has an an influence there) or anything else I thought was
> beyond their control.
>
> However, I have left _NO_TIP_ many times when I have had food
> literally dropped or thrown on the table in front of me, never to see
> my server again - and have had to ask other servers or the host/ess to
> get something for me, or to get my check so I can pay and leave.
>
> When I receive bad (and I am talking distinctly _BAD_ ) service, I
> leave no tip. If a server does such a awful job without seeming to
> care, I think they deserve that. If a server performs satisfactory,
> even if it is unremarkable, I leave 15%. Above satisfactory, 20%.
> Excellent service, 25%.
>
> I would not mind a mandatory service fee if it were not a percentage
> of my meal.....why should I pay more to a server because they brought
> me seafood instead of chicken? Was the plate that much heavier for
> them?
>
> -MR
>
>

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:17:20 -0400, MW > wrote:


>
>Is tipping shared with the kitchen staff ever? The reason I ask is
>that the new law in NY regarding mandatory % tipping I find
>outrageous. If the kitchen staff received some of the money, I would
>not feel as much that way.
>
>You see, to me, it has always bugged me when a server gets more money
>for walking from the kitchen to the table with lobster instead of
>salad. Really, how does what they bring me change the level of work
>they do? Sure, there is the rare dish you may need to bring something
>extra for (like wet wipes for ribs or something like that), but rarely
>does what I order make them work any more or less than usual!
>
>Now, if the kitchen staff received some of that money, I could
>understand. It is a bit more difficult to prepare the lobster than it
>is to prepare the salad.

Kitchen staff make standard, livable wages and get regular raises.
Servers do not, yet they tip out bussers, bartenders, and sometimes
others.

I promise you that there is more to serving than walking the food out.
It is more like managing the dining for that table. Servers often do
a lot of the salad making and food prep too and have to do some of the
drinks, at least where I worked. There's lots lots more. Try it
sometime. :-)

If you are really impressed with your meal, you can always send
something back to the kitchen. I have done this.

I do not know of a law in NY that requird mandatory tipping. I know
of only one restaurant that was doing it, Per Se, as mentioned in
Steven Shaw's article. Tell me more.

Nellie Paris

On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:04:23 -0500, "Jesse Robinson"
> wrote:

>Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate them. I agree with you on
>not making the auto-gratuity based on a percentage. It is true that a plate
>of ribs or a salad bar are two worlds of difference. A simply formula could
>be put into place, amount of people, number of courses (apps, entree,
>desserts, etc.), maybe beverages, something like that anyway. And I stand
>true that this type of change would offer better selections.
>
>I agree, the amount of "good applicants" or just any applicants has
>drastically decreased in the years. We use to get ten to twenty applications
>a month, now, we are lucky to get five. And even less of those five, if any,
>are what we would consider "good". That leaves us in a less-than-positive
>situation. We are almost forced to hire these people just to keep our doors
>open. An increase in server profits would open that door. "Good" servers
>might want to stay servers instead of quitting to get a "real job".
>
>We need to find a way to redefine what the server industry is. To many
>people see it as a supplement while they educate for better things. Others
>see it as a dead-end job. It is rare to hear someone proudly express, "I am
>a server." Unless of course, they make a lucrative living doing so.
>

Jesse,

I was good, I truly feel. I was routinely selected to be a trainer and
a shift leader, and I served on management advisor committees, etc. I
had regulars who asked for me, and I won sales awards without being
pushy with my guests and while aviding the horrible canned rap I was
supposed to use. I am sincerely interested in food preparation, wine
service, sales, and the industry. But I finished graduate school and
left because of the lack of respect for the position and my
dissatisfaction with the base pay and the poor to non-existent
benefits. I made decent tips for the city I was in, which was a
depressed area nothing like what the serving life is in a major city.
However, the unreliability of the money could hit me hard sometimes,
as did bad weather or bad scheduling, i.e. too many servers on per
shift.

Maybe the fact that our economy is supposed to be recovering is the
cause of the poor pool of servers. Or maybe it is the tipping system.
I would love to work in a place that would reward good servers with a
completitive/higher wage and regular reviews and raises. I would
have liked to be treated like a food professional with more equal play
in the restaurant team. Sadly, I feel that servers are the least
"equal" because of the pittance wage and the unfair tipping system
that could cause me to lose my money through no fault of my own.

How do your poorer servers respond to training and discipline?

Nellie Paris

On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 22:59:06 GMT, Nellie Paris >
wrote:

>On Tue, 04 Oct 2005 10:17:20 -0400, MW > wrote:
>
>
>I do not know of a law in NY that requird mandatory tipping. I know
>of only one restaurant that was doing it, Per Se, as mentioned in
>Steven Shaw's article. Tell me more.

Maybe the legislation hasn't made it yet, but I thought I heard on the
radio that either NYC in enacting a mandatory service charge or is
going to sometime soon.

I'll have to look into that a bit more.

-MR

In article >,
Nellie Paris > wrote:
>
> If this tipping system is so great, why do we have such bad overall
> service? I do not think a low tip encourages a server to reconsider
> the quality of service he or she is giving. Do you? The servers just
> assumes the low/non-tipper is cheap.

I haven't noticed a decline in service at restaurants. I eat out a lot
and I usually get fine service where ever I dine.

> It's of course a very imperfect system, but the cost of the food often
> reflects more work on the part of the restaurant staff. Not always, I
> know. Maybe a service charge could replect the time spent at the
> table, in an ideal world. I am not really for a percentage of the
> bill as a charge either. I would rather see service built into the
> menu prices, with no tip or service charge at all. If you don't like
> your chicken, you can't decide not to pay for it, so why do we get to
> decide what to pay for the service?
>
> I wonder what kind of management is going on in the places where you
> have such shoddy service. Why aren't these servers being disciplined,
> retrained, or fired? We need more managers like Jesse!

Good question. Bad management can occur at any restaurant, including
those where tipping is discouraged.

My, less-than-the-best, servers are very difficulty to deal with on a
training level. I like to think of myself as the "good" manager; the one
that everyone can respect and am never afraid to bus some table, do some
dishes or jump on the line to cook. If I spill marinara on my nice pressed
shirt, I don't care, as long as the guests and the team are being taken care
of.

The report that I have with my team gives me the edge when working with
them. Other managers and even my GM fall short of this sometimes. It is much
easier for me to ask someone to do something with less resistance from them,
than it is for some of the other managers in my restaurant. That being said,
the less-than-the-best servers we are referring to, still resist any type of
training.

They know what they are suppose to do, and will do it when they know I can
hear them. But if I come up behind them, they are performing the same tired
service that they always do. Sitting in the bar until I walk out of the
kitchen, chatting with their friends until I turn the corner, that sort of
thing.

Not that I do not encourage inter-restaurant friendships, I highly recommend
them, but you have to know when to chat, and when to make money and do your
job.

Outside of sales, I have tried small things like staying in your section so
if someone needs you, you can be there. Refills, refills, refills, pre-buss,
things like that. But I find that my ultimate challenge is not the servers,
per say, but the rest of management.

These will happen for a while, and then stop and it can be narrowed down to
management not being consistent. Servers know what they can get away with
with each manager on duty, for some, its the first thing they look at when
they walk in. "Which manager am I working with tonight?"

I work at a national franchise, these are things that are common among
national concepts. You will probably find less of this in a private owed
restaurant because the owner is there 9 out of 14 shifts at least. It is
demanded that his/her rules are followed or else.

I do not think that firing should be your first move, but if things are not
being done consistently, it does need to be in your playbook.

Does this answer your question? A bit long winded, but I like to be thorough
and for people to understand what I am trying to express.

Jesse

--


Primary:
Priority:
"Nellie Paris" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 4 Oct 2005 12:04:23 -0500, "Jesse Robinson"
> > wrote:
>
>>Thank you for your kind words, I really appreciate them. I agree with you
>>on
>>not making the auto-gratuity based on a percentage. It is true that a
>>plate
>>of ribs or a salad bar are two worlds of difference. A simply formula
>>could
>>be put into place, amount of people, number of courses (apps, entree,
>>desserts, etc.), maybe beverages, something like that anyway. And I stand
>>true that this type of change would offer better selections.
>>
>>I agree, the amount of "good applicants" or just any applicants has
>>drastically decreased in the years. We use to get ten to twenty
>>applications
>>a month, now, we are lucky to get five. And even less of those five, if
>>any,
>>are what we would consider "good". That leaves us in a less-than-positive
>>situation. We are almost forced to hire these people just to keep our
>>doors
>>open. An increase in server profits would open that door. "Good" servers
>>might want to stay servers instead of quitting to get a "real job".
>>
>>We need to find a way to redefine what the server industry is. To many
>>people see it as a supplement while they educate for better things. Others
>>see it as a dead-end job. It is rare to hear someone proudly express, "I
>>am
>>a server." Unless of course, they make a lucrative living doing so.
>>
>
> Jesse,
>
> I was good, I truly feel. I was routinely selected to be a trainer and
> a shift leader, and I served on management advisor committees, etc. I
> had regulars who asked for me, and I won sales awards without being
> pushy with my guests and while aviding the horrible canned rap I was
> supposed to use. I am sincerely interested in food preparation, wine
> service, sales, and the industry. But I finished graduate school and
> left because of the lack of respect for the position and my
> dissatisfaction with the base pay and the poor to non-existent
> benefits. I made decent tips for the city I was in, which was a
> depressed area nothing like what the serving life is in a major city.
> However, the unreliability of the money could hit me hard sometimes,
> as did bad weather or bad scheduling, i.e. too many servers on per
> shift.
>
> Maybe the fact that our economy is supposed to be recovering is the
> cause of the poor pool of servers. Or maybe it is the tipping system.
> I would love to work in a place that would reward good servers with a
> completitive/higher wage and regular reviews and raises. I would
> have liked to be treated like a food professional with more equal play
> in the restaurant team. Sadly, I feel that servers are the least
> "equal" because of the pittance wage and the unfair tipping system
> that could cause me to lose my money through no fault of my own.
>
> How do your poorer servers respond to training and discipline?
>
> Nellie Paris