My starter has been in the refrigerator, unused, for several months and has
formed a top of about one-half inch of clear brown liquid.

When I stirred it, it gave off the distinct odor of wine.

I didn't drain off the liquid before starting to revive the starter. It
seems to be reviving, but very slowly.

What is this liqud? Should I have poured it off?

Ray wrote:

> My starter has been in the refrigerator, unused, for several months and
> has formed a top of about one-half inch of clear brown liquid.
>
> When I stirred it, it gave off the distinct odor of wine.
>
> I didn't drain off the liquid before starting to revive the starter. It
> seems to be reviving, but very slowly.
>
> What is this liqud? Should I have poured it off?

Hi Ray:

I will not profess to understand the chemistry or microbiology involved. My
understanding is that the liquid to which you refer is called "hooch."
Again, per my understanding it contains some volatile alcohols (one of the
byproducts of fermentation), thus, the fragrance of wine.

My practice has always been to stir the hooch back into the starter as you
described. I do so by following the advice of Dr. Ed Wood - he has yet to
lead me wrong.

However, my gut and limited understanding tells me that the microbiology in
a culture stored for the length of time you describe is probably unbalanced
concerning the LB/yeast ratio. If the culture fails to double or triple
itself during proofing it is highly unlikely (imho) that it will do so when
used for baking. My understanding is that the culture in such a state is
too acidic thus impairing yeast growth (I may be way wrong here.).

After long storage, I follow Dr. Wood's recommendations and wash the culture
(See Washing a Culture at: http://www.sourdo.com/recipies.html ). He
states, "Old timers used to call it sweetening the pot...." Additionally, I
found the information at:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...dough/starters
unparalleled; it has been extremely helpful to me.

I hope that this helps. There are others who are eminently more qualified
than I to answer your question; hopefully, they will.

I am leaving tomorrow AM until the end of the month, so I am busy with a
multitude of other things. Thus, if you should write again and I do not
respond, it is not because I am ignoring you.

Again, best of luck.

Regards,

Ray

Ray wrote:
> My starter has been in the refrigerator, unused, for several months and has
> formed a top of about one-half inch of clear brown liquid.
>
> When I stirred it, it gave off the distinct odor of wine.
>
> I didn't drain off the liquid before starting to revive the starter. It
> seems to be reviving, but very slowly.
>
> What is this liquid? Should I have poured it off?

=========

It's water. And it has non-volatile fermentation by-products like
alcohol.
Probably wouldn't happen in outer space, but here on earth where we
experience gravity,
solids (the flour) do settle out of suspensions.

What it means is you are mixing too much water into your storage
starter. If your starter is going to rest a while between uses, it's
better to store it firm. Mike Avery mentioned 60% hydration a day or so
ago. That is dead center between stiff bagel dough (55%) and regular
bread dough (65%).

Maybe Dr. Woods mixes it all together... but your best bet is to pour
off this water, dig a teaspoon or two out of the middle of the
remaining muck and feed it. This way you don't offend your dough-to-be
with a higher percentage of old, flabby, acidified starter (with
degraded,stringy gluten) than is absolutely necessary.

"Will" wrote:
>
> It's water. And it has non-volatile fermentation by-products like
> alcohol.
> Probably wouldn't happen in outer space, but here on earth where we
> experience gravity,
> solids (the flour) do settle out of suspensions.

> What it means is you are mixing too much water into your storage
> starter. If your starter is going to rest a while between uses, it's
> better to store it firm. Mike Avery mentioned 60% hydration a day or so
> ago. That is dead center between stiff bagel dough (55%) and regular
> bread dough (65%).

Hi again Ray:

I'll defer to Will and Mike concerning this issue. Neither of them has ever
steered me wrong. They know way more about this than I do.
>
> Maybe Dr. Woods mixes it all together... but your best bet is to pour
> off this water, dig a teaspoon or two out of the middle of the
> remaining muck and feed it. This way you don't offend your dough-to-be
> with a higher percentage of old, flabby, acidified starter (with
> degraded,stringy gluten) than is absolutely necessary.

Again, I'll defer to Will. He is describing the method at:
ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...dough/starters
, I believe.

My conjecture is that the washing technique Dr. Wood uses substantially
reduces the, "percentage of old, flabby, acidified starter (with
degraded,stringy gluten)," that Will mentions. I have had successful
personal experience with Dr. Wood's method. However, that said, there is no
reason for me to believe that Will's recommended method is not equally
effective and perhaps better. I've just never tried it.

One thing I have noticed perusing the archives and reflecting on my early
attempts at bread making with sourdough is a high incidence of poor culture
management practices among people like myself. I believe that I am doing
much better now thanks to many people at this site and the vast database
contained herein.

Regards,

Ray

Thanks -- very helpful.

"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1.1158419006.73129.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> Ray wrote:
>
>> My starter has been in the refrigerator, unused, for several months and
>> has formed a top of about one-half inch of clear brown liquid.
>>
>> When I stirred it, it gave off the distinct odor of wine.
>>
>> I didn't drain off the liquid before starting to revive the starter. It
>> seems to be reviving, but very slowly.
>>
>> What is this liqud? Should I have poured it off?
>
> Hi Ray:
>
> I will not profess to understand the chemistry or microbiology involved.
> My understanding is that the liquid to which you refer is called "hooch."
> Again, per my understanding it contains some volatile alcohols (one of the
> byproducts of fermentation), thus, the fragrance of wine.
>
> My practice has always been to stir the hooch back into the starter as you
> described. I do so by following the advice of Dr. Ed Wood - he has yet to
> lead me wrong.
>
> However, my gut and limited understanding tells me that the microbiology
> in a culture stored for the length of time you describe is probably
> unbalanced concerning the LB/yeast ratio. If the culture fails to double
> or triple itself during proofing it is highly unlikely (imho) that it will
> do so when used for baking. My understanding is that the culture in such
> a state is too acidic thus impairing yeast growth (I may be way wrong
> here.).
>
> After long storage, I follow Dr. Wood's recommendations and wash the
> culture (See Washing a Culture at: http://www.sourdo.com/recipies.html ).
> He states, "Old timers used to call it sweetening the pot...."
> Additionally, I found the information at:
> ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-gro...dough/starters
> unparalleled; it has been extremely helpful to me.
>
> I hope that this helps. There are others who are eminently more qualified
> than I to answer your question; hopefully, they will.
>
> I am leaving tomorrow AM until the end of the month, so I am busy with a
> multitude of other things. Thus, if you should write again and I do not
> respond, it is not because I am ignoring you.
>
> Again, best of luck.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray