Well, I just tasted the loaves I made using a ... OK, I won't call it Detmold, because it's not,
but I varied the hydration of the starter in each of the builds according to Detmold. The loaf
is all whole wheat flour.

I keep my starter really dry, 1 part water to 2 parts flour.
Next stage was 2 parts water to 1 part flour
Final stage was 1 part water to 1 part flour.

I happy to say that these efforts ... seemed to make absolutely no difference in the taste of
my bread to my wife, and she's the judge.

I thought it might have a smoother sour, less sharp and more like tangy yogurt. But,
shockingly, I've been known to deceive myself from time to time. So I gave her a slice, asked
her how it tasted and she said, "Tastes just like your usual sourdough."

Next weekend, I'll try Dick's method (in the Word 97 doc found on this page: http://
home.att.net/~carlsfriends/dickpics/billowy.html ) to see if I can get some more loft into my
whole wheat bread. Anyone with experience making lofty 100% whole wheat sourdough
loaves, I'd love to hear your tips.

(Somewhat off topic, the loaves I make with instant yeast rise very, very high whenever I use
buttermilk. I've done some searching, but haven't found anything that really explains why
that might be -- anyone have an idea? Or am I deceiving myself again that buttermilk might
be the culprit? Adding buttermilk to whole wheat sourdough just seems silly, but, what do I
know?)

Jeff Miller wrote:

> Anyone with experience making lofty 100% whole wheat sourdough
> loaves, I'd love to hear your tips.

Well... you won't achieve big hole, high loft bread, but you can avoid
really dense loaves. You may be doing these things, they are pretty
general, and widely practiced.

1) Do not knead. Mix well and let the dough ripen on it's own. It will
form gluten and the gluten will be of better quality. Kneading whole
grain doughs macerates the gluten due to the presence of grain husks
(bran).

2) Read Mike Avery's posts on stretch-and-fold. This technique gently
laminates the gluten strands and distributes gas pockets. The laminated
gluten layers are stronger, hold gas better. This translates to higher
loft during the final proof.

3) consider amending your dough with a portion of cooked flour. I often
use 15% rye, barley, or oats but wheat will do. The cooked portion is
softer. Rye, barley and oats are soft grains and the bran turns to
mucilage. You are gaining denatured bran (and some interesting flavor)
but losing some gluten. I think it's worth it, others may disagree.

4) You can manage the "sour" flavor, by controlling your sponge. A
large, 90% hydration, wet sponge will make a mild bread. A smaller,
denser sponge that is diluted with water when the dough is made will
make a sharper bread. This is because the initial flour density buffers
your early acid build and water added going into the dough stage
dilutes it further. The net effect is to allow your culture to
generate more acid (and your dough to accept it without getting flabby)
before the pH window closes.

5) This one will generate protests but... after the dough is well
ripened and you are at final proof... pick up the pace... push the
scaled, shaped dough with gentle heat. I use a hot pad in a plastic
Rubbermaid container. By working with heat, you drive more gas into the
emerging crumb structure and you want to do that before the gluten
begins degrading. CO2, acetic acid and ethyl alcohol, the main
volatiles of fermentation, age and eventually degrade dough. (So does
lactic acid, but it is not volatile). As the loaf is rising, the gluten
is stretching. Time and stretch weaken gluten. Here is where laminated
gluten (via stretch and fold) and reduced time (via heat at the end)
help.

To recap... your best shot at good whole grain bread comes from a well
considered sponge strategy, gluten is laminated not kneaded, is ripened
slowly via a cool retard, is pushed during final proof to optimise gas
and minimize structural degradation.

Will

Jeff Miller wrote:

> (Somewhat off topic, the loaves I make with instant yeast rise very, very high whenever I use
> buttermilk. I've done some searching, but haven't found anything that really explains why
> that might be -- anyone have an idea? Or am I deceiving myself again that buttermilk might
> be the culprit? Adding buttermilk to whole wheat sourdough just seems silly, but, what do I
> know?)


Ed Bechtel replies:

Jeff, buttermilk is like a single acting baking powder. I don't know
why. In the old days, they didn't have baking powder. One would keep a
jar of clabbored milk (sp) on the back of the stove which was just
fresh milk that sat around and soured. Or one would use buttermilk. Or
one would use milk with a little vinegar added. In either case things
like biscuits, pancakes, or quickbreads would use the sour milk and
maybe a pinch of baking soda (not powder) to achieve the rise. Sounds
like your yeast breads work so quickly that the buttermilk rise is
still active and giving some assist.

By the way. Biscuits or muffins made with just buttermilk and no baking
powder are the best - you should try them.

Ed Bechtel

Ed Bechtel wrote:
> Jeff, buttermilk is like a single acting baking powder. I don't know
> why. In the old days, they didn't have baking powder. One would keep a
> jar of clabbored milk (sp) on the back of the stove which was just
> fresh milk that sat around and soured. Or one would use buttermilk. Or
> one would use milk with a little vinegar added. In either case things
> like biscuits, pancakes, or quickbreads would use the sour milk and
> maybe a pinch of baking soda (not powder) to achieve the rise. Sounds
> like your yeast breads work so quickly that the buttermilk rise is
> still active and giving some assist.
>
> By the way. Biscuits or muffins made with just buttermilk and no baking
> powder are the best - you should try them.

I'm a bit confused. Are you saying that buttermilk causes rise all by
itself, or only in conjunction with baking soda? If the latter, why do
you say you don't know why? Do you mean you don't know the chemical
reason? (It's the same thing that happens when you make little volcanos
out of vinegar, baking soda, and red food coloring)

In the case of bread, where baking soda isn't usually included, would
buttermilk help rise without the soda? If it does, does it help less,
the same as, or more than plain milk?

I'm not implying that plain milk or buttermilk helps rise, I have no
evidence of that or against it, I'm just asking follow up questions.

Ed Bechtel wrote:
> Jeff Miller wrote:

> > buttermilk. I've done some searching, but haven't found anything that really explains why
> > that might be -- anyone have an idea? Or am I deceiving myself again that buttermilk might
> > be the culprit? Adding buttermilk to whole wheat sourdough just seems silly, but, what do I
> > know?)
>
> Ed Bechtel replies:
>
> Jeff, buttermilk is like a single acting baking powder. I don't know
> why. In the old days, they didn't have baking powder. One would keep a
> jar of clabbored milk (sp) on the back of the stove which was just
> fresh milk that sat around and soured. Or one would use buttermilk. Or
> one would use milk with a little vinegar added. In either case things
> like biscuits, pancakes, or quickbreads would use the sour milk and
> maybe a pinch of baking soda (not powder) to achieve the rise. Sounds
> like your yeast breads work so quickly that the buttermilk rise is
> still active and giving some assist.
>
> By the way. Biscuits or muffins made with just buttermilk and no baking
> powder are the best - you should try them.

Alton Brown covers why you get extra rise wih butter milk (an acid) and
baking soda (an alkaline). Ever seen a bottle rocket? From Altons show:

AB: I mean, so's ... so's that chicken there. I mean, come on. You guys
need to get your mind right on buttermilk. Everyone gather around while
I preach some, okay? Now, pay attention. In the good ole days,
buttermilk referred to the watery, whey-like liquid leftover from
butter churning. It really wasn't good for much of anything. But
today's buttermilk actually has more in common with sour cream or
yogurt than its ancestor over here. See, low fat or skim milk is
inoculated with a bacterial culture. Now these little beasties eat some
of the lactose and turn it into tangy lactic acid, right? Now when the
acid reaches a particular level, the milk is heated, the bugs are thus
dispatched and that leaves buttermilk. Now, bakers love this stuff. Not
only because of its trademark twang, but because a cup will neutralize
a quarter teaspoon of baking soda thus providing sufficient CO2 to lift
one cup of flour. Okay, any questions?

http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/Seaso...Transcript.htm

"Jeff Miller" > wrote in message news:mailman.6.1159104705.747.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...

> Anyone with experience making lofty 100% whole wheat sourdough
> loaves, I'd love to hear your tips.

OK, here are tips:

1. For sourdough, forget whole wheat. Good WW bread stands
on its own for flavor.

2. Use a bread machine on the simplest cycle.

3. Use about 1/3 bromated bread flour. There is simply no substitute
for bromate, but a little bit goes plenty far. It keeps the risen dough
from collapsing when heat is applied.

4. Add some molasses as yeast food. Use ordinary dry yeast.

For instance:
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread%5Fculture/BMWW/

Well, you could try with sourdough (not bread-machine). But I have
never made it work to my satisfaction, except as shown.

--
Dicky

P.S. Bromate is considered by fastidious people to be potentially
carcenogenic, regardless of not surviving baking to any appreciable
extent.

Jeff Miller wrote:
> 1) I'm delusional:

Everyone is delusional, its just a matter of degree .

> 2) Buttermilk does something to bread dough (or maybe just whole-wheat
> dough) that I'm unaware of to assist with the rise.

I am really quite new to sourdough baking so I probably don't know what
I am talking about. That being said, 'rise' would be a description of
how much CO2 is produced through the chemical reactions of the
ingredients. In quick breads, this reaction is caused by adding baking
powder and sometimes baking soda, depending on the wet ingredients. In
modern quick rise yeast products, yeast gobbles up the sugar to produce
CO2, hence rise. I am going to guess that adding buttermilk to your
leaven breads, is adding sugar for those little yeast beasties to
gobble
up.

Anyone with more knowledge than my inadequate ruminations, feel free to
chime in.

-Doug