Hello All:

I have some more questions concerning the "no knead" or stretch and fold technique. When trying to convert Ed Wood's recipe to freshly-milled, 100% whole grain, I tried several times to make it using the "no knead" technique. I never got there.

The dough never seemed to get supple enough and wanted to tear more than stretch no matter how gentle I was with the dough. Obviously, I was doing something wrong, or perhaps I was simply too impatient to allow the dough to chemically develop.

So, I regressed back to the Kitchen Aid and mechanically kneaded it (I can see Dick's Cheshire cat smile from here). One batch at 5 minutes, another at 10.

I finally settled in on 12 to 13 minutes on speed 2 because that seemed to result in a smooth and elastic dough by the end of the second rise. I was also afraid of over-kneading the dough mechanically as well as vague concerns about the effect of the bran in 100% extraction flour on any developing gluten structure. The final recipe outcome was personally acceptable, replicable and was offered here.

Can anyone help me understand what is happening? While I a quite personally satisfied with the current outcome, I have been led to believe that the stretch and fold technique produces a lighter, higher rising bread.

I am using a roughly 17% inoculation in my initial refreshment procedure (20/120) and often stir it down to re-rise after roughly 8 hours. My rationale was hypothesized to increase the yeast population. The Russian is very fast and peaks in 3 hours. The second refreshment is essentially a doubling (120/250) and is used at roughly 3 hours. My guess is that my process may favor yeasts over Lb's, which for me is a desired outcome as I do not like sour whole grain breads (except rye).

I have been consistently successful targeting a dough temperature in the 75F to 78F range after mixing. The hydration is 70% and the final starter inoculation to dough is 25%.

I am guessing that perhaps the 25% inoculation is a reason why the dough takes so long to develop chemically. That is, if I increased the inoculation to 40% the dough would develop chemically faster, making the stretch and fold technique more viable earlier. Is that a valid assumption?

Does the yeast / Lb ratio in the inoculation impact chemical development? If so, at what stage of development do those of you who routinely use this technique incorporate the starter into the final dough? For example, at peak, after total collapse, etc.

I also assume that increasing the hydration of the dough slightly might help. Is that valid?

Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Regards,


Ray

You are seeing what is happening:

Stretch and fold apparently does not work well with full grain and
mixing with machine helps.

Full grain is not as acommodating to get good rises/structures as
white bread flour.

You can expect the impossible but if it does not happen...

S.

On 10/27/06, WRK > wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello All:
>
> I have some more questions concerning the "no knead" or stretch and fold
> technique. When trying to convert Ed Wood's recipe to freshly-milled, 100%
> whole grain, I tried several times to make it using the "no knead"
> technique. I never got there.
[...]

WRK wrote:

> I also assume that increasing the hydration of the dough slightly might
> help. Is that valid?


Probably. You left out all the useful details, like what hydration, how
many stretch and fold cycles, and how long between S&F. S&F works
because of the interaction of water and flour, your start inoculation is
irrelevant. Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough
(no start, yeast, etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
the development.

I do S&F with whole wheat (and yesterday with whole spelt) and although
it is slightly more prone to tearing it works fine. I aim for about 66%
hydration. I can easily imagine tearing problems with too low hydration,
or impatience.

I do mix, 45 min, S&F, 45 min, S&F, 45 min, S&F and shape. With WW, the
first S&F tends to tear a bit sometimes (less so with higher hydration).
Doesn't seem to be a problem in the end though - imagine how many times
you tear the dough kneading it.

"WRK" > wrote in message news:mailman.43.1161962478.45469.rec.food.sourdoug ...

> [ ... ]

> Any ideas or suggestions would be much appreciated.

Whole-grain flour is the toughest to make pretty bread from,
even if it happens to be wheat.

(I can do it, but I have to smash the wheat fine and fresh, and
to include about one part in three of bromated bread flour
(GM 50111) and a sugar source (molasses) (not to mention
bakers' yeast and a bread machine.)). I wish I could tell you
why that works, but I can't.)
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_culture/BMWW/

If a preferment, like a sponge, goes too far, and there is a large
proportion of it in the final dough, the dough will tend to go to
rags. (Thats for white bread -- what do I know about rye
(what does anyone?)?)

(I did not actually read all of the subject post -- it was too long
and complicated.) (Well, at least it did not start with a couple of
screens of requoted crap.)

(My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)

--
Dicky

October 27, 2006, Hans Fugal wrote:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...5392ad12ba0e52

> Probably. You left out all the useful details, like what hydration, how
> many stretch and fold cycles, and how long between S&F. S&F works
> because of the interaction of water and flour, your start inoculation is
> irrelevant. Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough
> (no start, yeast, etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
> the development.

Hi Hans:

Thanks for the reply. I looked for my old notes but they have either been
misplaced or discarded. If I remember correctly (and that is always
suspect) I mixed the dough just enough to get everything good and uniformly
wet. I then did 6 S&F cycles at 45 minute intervals. One gentle S&F per
cycle.

The outcome was always so - so. The dough did not seem sufficiently
developed, per my amateur observation, and often sagged over the sides of
the pan during final proof. That could also be a result of over-proofing,
but if so, then overall rise in the pan was only fair.

The recipe did not change throughout the development process. That variable
was held constant. (The lab monkey doing the stretch and folds however, has
inherent flaws in his technique's consistency from trial to trial.)

Hydration is, and always was 70%. Recipe is he
http://sourdoughbaking.blogspot.com/#116188091170975225
(= http://tinyurl.com/yffbly)

I arrived at 70% hydration based on the following observations using
conventional mixing with Kitchen Aid and this particular batch of grain:
*When mixed and following initial mechanical kneading the dough is pretty
hard to handle, for me. Moist hands and moist surface are needed.
*After first bulk proof, the dough is much more manageable, still moist
hands and moistened surface.
*After the second bulk rise the dough is much better developed. It usually
can be managed dry -- rarely is more than one tablespoon of flour necessary
on the counter during final kneading, rest & shape process.

So some chemical development is occurring. However, I was never able to
shift the whole process to chemical development.

Whether my method to determine an appropriate hydration for this home-ground
flour is appropriate is frankly unknown by me. However, it seems to work
for me.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Regards,

Ray

"Dick Adams" > wrote:

>(My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)
Now I'll have that tune running through my head all afternoon. Thanks!
Not!

Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

WRK wrote:

> I have some more questions concerning the "no knead" or stretch and fold technique.



S&F works well with whole grain flour. Remember, the bran component is
very dry and needs time to absorb water before it is pliable. If you
start manipulating the dough too soon it will tear. Your solution is to
mix and WAIT.

Another method that works <for me> is to hydrate a good amount of the
wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours. So mix a
very soft, very wet dough, it must remain wet enough to easily
distribute the starter later. After inoculation... bring it to proper
hydration with the remaining flour.

Hi Samartha:

On October 27, 2006 Samartha Deva wrote:

> You are seeing what is happening:
>
> Stretch and fold apparently does not work well with full grain and
> mixing with machine helps.

That so far has been my experience with S&F and the Russian culture.
However, my results using S&F do seem to be much better using the OSF
culture. However, that is in a totally different whole grain recipe and thus
is not a valid comparison.

A major confound in all of this is me. The Kitchen Aid mixing on speed 2
for 10 minutes pretty much does it the same every time. Me doing six S&F's
at 45 minute intervals is far, far less standardized.

I am most willing to concede that some are able to do this successfully with
their culture, recipe and technique. More experienced persons with this
technique may see that the dough is not as properly developed as expected
given the time interval and thus needs eight S&F's instead of 6. Or that it
needs two (or more) back-to-back S&F's half-way through. The S&F technique
may be something that defies a mechanized/ standardized approach.

A second variable is the culture. For example, I have found that I can make
very good 100% freshly ground whole grain bread in the bread machine with
the Russian culture.
http://sourdoughbaking.blogspot.com/...9892 64346861
(= http://tinyurl.com/y3r4bz) Every time. I've never had a failure.

I haven't so far replicated such success using the OSF. Frankly, when using
the OSF it is easier and generally better to do it by hand versus the bread
machine.

Another variable is how the culture was built. I would hypothesize that the
yeast/ Lb balance might highly correlate with chemical development over
time. I would suggest that starter build can also produce profound
differences. While I have no evidence for the former I suggest that the
DM-3 is proof of the latter.

> You can expect the impossible but if it does not happen...

This is perhaps where we disagree. You indeed may be correct. However, I
prefer to look at most things as it hasn't been figured it out yet. That of
course that needs to be balanced with, is it worth the time when one already
has a successful approach that reliably produces personally acceptable
results?

Thanks for the time and response.

Best regards,

Ray

On October 27, 2006, Dick Adams wrote:

> (My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)

He's the group poet, but he don't know it <g>.

Ray

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:46:39 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>(My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)

There were rats, rats, big as ******* cats ...

Hey Will:

Nice to hear from you.

On October 27, 2006 Will wrote:

> Another method that works <for me> is to hydrate a good amount of the
> wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours.

In the recipe I have all the remaining water going into all remaining dry
ingredients (sans salt) for a 45 minute period before adding the starter.
Perhaps 45 minutes is not long enough.

Thanks for the tip. I will try extending the "autolyse" step next time I
make the recipe. I will assume that if the Kitchen Aid get the dough
developed in perceptibly less time it helps.

Best regards,

Ray

On October 27, 2006, Dick Adams wrote:

> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_culture/BMWW/

Hats off to you Dick. Very nice looking loaf.

Before I got the programmable Breadman 2200C (which BTW is discontinued) and
the Russian culture I couldn't do it at all. Flat gave up. Never saw your
recipe back then.

Best regards,

Ray

Andrew Price wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:46:39 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
> wrote:
>
>>(My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)
>
> There were rats, rats, big as ******* cats ...

It was a dark and stormy loaf.

B/

Andrew Price wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 17:46:39 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>(My eyes are dim, I cannot see, I have not got my specs with me.)
>
>
> There were rats, rats, big as ******* cats ...

******* = alley !

Cliff's nephew, Andy Price?

Just my two cents worth:

I make whole wheat sour dough bread approx. every two weeks and I use the
S&F method except I just stretch it and fold it in a kneading type pattern
inside the mixing bowl by hand. I mix all ingredients in at the same time
and let it sit for about 45 minutes to an hour prior to the S&F so that all
of the wheat absorbs liquid. Then I 'S&F' again for about 30 seconds. Then
do the same thing about every hour or so for 3 or 4 hours extending the time
between my S&F's. My breads rises fine and taste great. The dough is soft
and sticky. Mixing in the mixer is easier but messes up more 'stuff' that
I have to wash and clean up. I like the one bowl method. I do keep the
dough on the wet side and use only water on my hands to keep the dough from
sticking to my skin.

John


"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.47.1161980160.45469.rec.food.sourdoug ...
> Hey Will:
>
> Nice to hear from you.
>
> On October 27, 2006 Will wrote:
>
>> Another method that works <for me> is to hydrate a good amount of the
>> wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours.
>
> In the recipe I have all the remaining water going into all remaining dry
> ingredients (sans salt) for a 45 minute period before adding the starter.
> Perhaps 45 minutes is not long enough.
>
> Thanks for the tip. I will try extending the "autolyse" step next time I
> make the recipe. I will assume that if the Kitchen Aid get the dough
> developed in perceptibly less time it helps.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ray

WRK wrote:
> Hey Will:
>
> Nice to hear from you.
>
> On October 27, 2006 Will wrote:
>
> > Another method that works <for me> is to hydrate a good amount of the
> > wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours.
>
> In the recipe I have all the remaining water going into all remaining dry
> ingredients (sans salt) for a 45 minute period before adding the starter.
> Perhaps 45 minutes is not long enough.
>
> Thanks for the tip. I will try extending the "autolyse" step next time I
> make the recipe. I will assume that if the Kitchen Aid get the dough
> developed in perceptibly less time it helps.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ray

In my opinion, and there will be many who disagree, the KA will muck
things up. Beating whole grain dough with a hook is one sure way to
confuse gluten. By hydrating some of the flour before you start, you
get the gluten process going. By stretching and folding, the gluten
strands are laminated and reinforced. It's like fabricating Damascus
steel.

I have made a lot of dough with KA machines. Not lately, but that's
because they just don't get the dough right. They do a good job of
mixing and I use mine for that purpose. But using the hook is like
using a backhoe to plant a rose bush. Developing dough structure is
different...

On 27 Oct 2006 18:19:28 -0700, "Will" >
wrote:

>
>WRK wrote:
>> Hey Will:
>>
>> Nice to hear from you.
>>
>> On October 27, 2006 Will wrote:
>>
>> > Another method that works <for me> is to hydrate a good amount of the
>> > wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours.
>>
>> In the recipe I have all the remaining water going into all remaining dry
>> ingredients (sans salt) for a 45 minute period before adding the starter.
>> Perhaps 45 minutes is not long enough.
>>
>> Thanks for the tip. I will try extending the "autolyse" step next time I
>> make the recipe. I will assume that if the Kitchen Aid get the dough
>> developed in perceptibly less time it helps.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Ray
>
>In my opinion, and there will be many who disagree, the KA will muck
>things up. Beating whole grain dough with a hook is one sure way to
>confuse gluten. By hydrating some of the flour before you start, you
>get the gluten process going. By stretching and folding, the gluten
>strands are laminated and reinforced. It's like fabricating Damascus
>steel.
>
>I have made a lot of dough with KA machines. Not lately, but that's
>because they just don't get the dough right. They do a good job of
>mixing and I use mine for that purpose. But using the hook is like
>using a backhoe to plant a rose bush. Developing dough structure is
>different...

It is one of the reasons I do not use the dough hook with heavy, whole
grain sourdough in my Magic Mill. I use the roller and it handles very
large batches of dough perfectly. In fact, over the years, I have
acquired two dough hooks for it and never use either.

Boron

Hi John:

Thanks for responding.

On October 27, 2006, BigJohn wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...577a08e06f306?

>Mixing in the mixer is easier but messes up more 'stuff' that I have to
>wash and clean up. I like the one bowl method.

Sage advice, John. If more people had to clean up their own messes perhaps
the planet might be in a little better place.

Would you please provide a little more information? Specifically:

Which starter do you use?
Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you use?
How many steps are in your starter build process?
At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the starter
into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak, receding
and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.

My recent problems using the stretch and fold method have been with the
Russian culture. In contrast, my results using the stretch and fold
technique when using the Original San Francisco starter are generally
acceptable.

Again, thanks for the time and information.

Regards,

Ray

On October 27, 2006, Will wrote:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2a04f191e70d68

Hey Will:

Have you ever used the Russian starter and the stretch and fold technique?
If not, same questions as I ask John:
Which starter(s) do you use?
Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you use?
How many steps are in your starter build process?
At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the starter
into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak, receding
and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.

Anyone who looks at a 100% hydration starter after a few days of
refrigeration can verify that chemical dough development works. I have an
unexplained anomaly using the Russian culture. The test monkey doing the
baking as always is guilty until proven innocent.

As always thanks for the time and help.

Regards,

Ray

PS:

> I have made a lot of dough with KA machines. Not lately, but that's
> because they just don't get the dough right.

BTW: It is my understanding that Kitchen Aid redesigned the dough hook some
time back. Do you have the newer dough hook? My experience with it is that
after the first 3 or 4 minutes the dough forms a cohesive ball clinging to
the hook. After that point, speed is increased to #2 and the dough begins
to sling outward in response to the centrifugal force toward the bowl edge
and stretches/ develops.

I use 1 1/2 cups of Carls starter to 9 cups of fresh ww flour with about 5
cups of liquid (buttermilk, milk, and/or water). The starter is created
the day before using UB flour. (I store my starter in the refrigerator). I
feed it that morning and that night. Next morning I usually just go ahead
and mix the dough since the starter is fairly active even though it had
receeded overnight. The starter is always active, but not over active. I
also use a bit more sea salt than is called for and it has not caused an
issue; 1 tsp of salt per cup of unground wheat berries. This is about 6
cups of berries.

I only allow about two rises once the dough has been thru it's S&F process.
And then on to the final rise. I have also reduced the amount of rising
during the two rises to reduce the sour taste in the final bread. I let it
rise until a bit less than doubled. Over rising gives the bread a 'bitter'
taste to me.

John


"WRK" > wrote in message
news:mailman.1.1162047673.27802.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
> Hi John:
>
> Thanks for responding.
>
> On October 27, 2006, BigJohn wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...577a08e06f306?
>
>>Mixing in the mixer is easier but messes up more 'stuff' that I have to
>>wash and clean up. I like the one bowl method.
>
> Sage advice, John. If more people had to clean up their own messes
> perhaps the planet might be in a little better place.
>
> Would you please provide a little more information? Specifically:
>
> Which starter do you use?
> Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you
> use?
> How many steps are in your starter build process?
> At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the
> starter into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak,
> receding and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.
>
> My recent problems using the stretch and fold method have been with the
> Russian culture. In contrast, my results using the stretch and fold
> technique when using the Original San Francisco starter are generally
> acceptable.
>
> Again, thanks for the time and information.
>
> Regards,
>
> Ray

In line...


WRK wrote:
> On October 27, 2006, Will wrote:
> http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2a04f191e70d68
>
> Hey Will:
>
> Have you ever used the Russian starter and the stretch and fold technique?
> If not, same questions as I ask John:
> Which starter(s) do you use?

I make my starters. My current one is from white wheat. I use the
technique outlined in Laurel Robert's book for Desem, meaning I ferment
little dough balls.

> Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you use?

Typically 20% by weight.

> How many steps are in your starter build process?

Typically 3. One to arouse the starter. One to build it into a small
sponge. Then balance of flour+water for the dough build. My starter is
kept firm and is not refrigerated. Since is used every two days it
doesn't require multiple refreshments to get going.

> At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the starter
> into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak, receding
> and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.

Just before peak. But this varies for me, depending on my schedule.


> BTW: It is my understanding that Kitchen Aid redesigned the dough hook some
> time back. Do you have the newer dough hook? My experience with it is that
> after the first 3 or 4 minutes the dough forms a cohesive ball clinging to
> the hook. After that point, speed is increased to #2 and the dough begins
> to sling outward in response to the centrifugal force toward the bowl edge
> and stretches/ develops.

I have both hooks. The redesigned one is better and I use it for mixing
the sponge and final flour + water. But I don't knead with it these
days. The hook makes the crumb tighter.

Most of my bread this fall has been a mixture of white AP (about 60%),
milled white wheat (about 20%) and slow cooked cereal (about 20%). The
cooked cereal has been a lot of fun to use. It's a blend of oats,
barley, rye and red wheat. It gets several days of soaking, then is
overnighted in a low crock-pot. The grain is cooked whole; not rolled
or cracked. I am finding that the cooking eliminates a great deal of
the heaviness that whole grains add, meaning it no longer interferes
with the rise. The white wheat is used for the starter build and
initial sponge. So the "whole grain" components (milled grain
sponge+cereal) are well hydrated. The overall rise and crumb are
identical to what I typically get from a 90% AP + 10% milled grain base.

Oct 27 2006, Hans Fugal wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...5392ad12ba0e52

"Try mixing a small amount of flour and water into a dough
(no start, yeast, etc.) and let it sit for a couple of hours and observe
the development."

On October 27, 2006, Will wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...9a8a780ce159e4

"Your solution is to mix and WAIT....Another method that works <for me> is
to hydrate a good amount of the
wheat flour WITHOUT the starter and let it rest a few hours."

On Oct 27 2006, Big John wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...5577a08e06f306

"I mix all ingredients in at the same time and let it sit for about 45
minutes to an hour prior to the S&F so that all
of the wheat absorbs liquid."

Even a sourdough dummy can see that everybody is singing on the same key.
Today, I am making another whole grain bread using the Russian. It only has
15% rye, uses some milk, molasses so it is not by any means a strict
comparison.

I mixed the flour and all the remaining water for the recipe and allowed it
to sit roughly 70 minutes. Then I added the starter and the dough came
together real fast with the mixer. I stopped after less than 5 minutes.
After the first bulk rise the dough is where I would have expected it after
the second rise, extremely soft and elastic.

Many thanks guys. I thank all of you for pointing me in the right
direction. As usual, the problem is not the poor defenseless yeasts and
Lb's; it's the baker.

Best regards,

Ray

BigJohn wrote:
> I use 1 1/2 cups of Carls starter to 9 cups of fresh ww flour with about 5
> cups of liquid (buttermilk, milk, and/or water). The starter is created
> the day before using UB flour. (I store my starter in the refrigerator). I
> feed it that morning and that night. Next morning I usually just go ahead
> and mix the dough since the starter is fairly active even though it had
> receeded overnight. The starter is always active, but not over active. I
> also use a bit more sea salt than is called for and it has not caused an
> issue; 1 tsp of salt per cup of unground wheat berries. This is about 6
> cups of berries.
>
> I only allow about two rises once the dough has been thru it's S&F process.
> And then on to the final rise. I have also reduced the amount of rising
> during the two rises to reduce the sour taste in the final bread. I let it
> rise until a bit less than doubled. Over rising gives the bread a 'bitter'
> taste to me.
>
> John
>
>
> "WRK" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.1.1162047673.27802.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
>
>>Hi John:
>>
>>Thanks for responding.
>>
>>On October 27, 2006, BigJohn wrote:
>>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...577a08e06f306?
>>
>>
>>>Mixing in the mixer is easier but messes up more 'stuff' that I have to
>>>wash and clean up. I like the one bowl method.
>>
>>Sage advice, John. If more people had to clean up their own messes
>>perhaps the planet might be in a little better place.
>>
>>Would you please provide a little more information? Specifically:
>>
>>Which starter do you use?
>>Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you
>>use?
>>How many steps are in your starter build process?
>>At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the
>>starter into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak,
>>receding and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.
>>
>>My recent problems using the stretch and fold method have been with the
>>Russian culture. In contrast, my results using the stretch and fold
>>technique when using the Original San Francisco starter are generally
>>acceptable.
>>
>>Again, thanks for the time and information.
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Ray
>
>
>
Are you talking about sour or bitter ( 2 very distinct tastes)?
Ellen

The over rising seems to give the bread a bitter taste. But when it rises
'just right' then the sourdough flavor is wonderful.

"ellen wickberg" > wrote in message
news:0VO0h.205641$1T2.74956@pd7urf2no...
> BigJohn wrote:
>> I use 1 1/2 cups of Carls starter to 9 cups of fresh ww flour with about
>> 5 cups of liquid (buttermilk, milk, and/or water). The starter is
>> created the day before using UB flour. (I store my starter in the
>> refrigerator). I feed it that morning and that night. Next morning I
>> usually just go ahead and mix the dough since the starter is fairly
>> active even though it had receeded overnight. The starter is always
>> active, but not over active. I also use a bit more sea salt than is
>> called for and it has not caused an issue; 1 tsp of salt per cup of
>> unground wheat berries. This is about 6 cups of berries.
>>
>> I only allow about two rises once the dough has been thru it's S&F
>> process. And then on to the final rise. I have also reduced the amount
>> of rising during the two rises to reduce the sour taste in the final
>> bread. I let it rise until a bit less than doubled. Over rising gives
>> the bread a 'bitter' taste to me.
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> "WRK" > wrote in message
>> news:mailman.1.1162047673.27802.rec.food.sourdough @mail.otherwhen.com...
>>
>>>Hi John:
>>>
>>>Thanks for responding.
>>>
>>>On October 27, 2006, BigJohn wrote:
>>>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...577a08e06f306?
>>>
>>>
>>>>Mixing in the mixer is easier but messes up more 'stuff' that I have to
>>>>wash and clean up. I like the one bowl method.
>>>
>>>Sage advice, John. If more people had to clean up their own messes
>>>perhaps the planet might be in a little better place.
>>>
>>>Would you please provide a little more information? Specifically:
>>>
>>>Which starter do you use?
>>>Is there a "normal/ standard" ratio of starter to final dough that you
>>>use?
>>>How many steps are in your starter build process?
>>>At what point in the final starter build step do you incorporate the
>>>starter into the dough? That is, as it is heading toward peak, at peak,
>>>receding and beginning to collapse or after complete collapse.
>>>
>>>My recent problems using the stretch and fold method have been with the
>>>Russian culture. In contrast, my results using the stretch and fold
>>>technique when using the Original San Francisco starter are generally
>>>acceptable.
>>>
>>>Again, thanks for the time and information.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Ray
>>
>>
>>
> Are you talking about sour or bitter ( 2 very distinct tastes)?
> Ellen

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:25:12 GMT, Dave Bell
> wrote:

>> There were rats, rats, big as ******* cats ...
>
>******* = alley !

Not in the version I know !

>Cliff's nephew, Andy Price?

Not that I know of - where's he from? I live in Paris, but even here,
there were two of us in the phone book at one stage.

Andrew Price wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 22:25:12 GMT, Dave Bell
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>There were rats, rats, big as ******* cats ...
>>
>>******* = alley !
>
>
> Not in the version I know !
>
>
>>Cliff's nephew, Andy Price?
>
>
> Not that I know of - where's he from? I live in Paris, but even here,
> there were two of us in the phone book at one stage.

Nope, California... I had just spoken to him the day before, was
figuring "small world"!