On October 29, 2006, Mike Avery wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...610755127387e1

> She gave me a bunch of hard
> spring white wheat to grind in my WhisperMill. I was really
> disappointed in the quality of the breads Io made. I played with them
> for some time. The doughs were quite fragile, didn't rise terribly
> well, and they were very bland. My wife asked me where the taste was.

> I then went to the local health food store and bought some hard winter
> red wheat. And I was much happier then. The taste, rise and handling
> all improved.
>
> In earlier tests, my results had been inconclusive on the subect of
> using vital wheat gluten in whole grain breads. This time, there was no
> doubt. I used 5 different flours, two store-bought white flours, one
> store bought whole wheat flour, and two home ground whole wheat flours.
> ALL of the breads rose much more nicely, and all the doughs handled much
> better when vital wheat gluten was added to the dough.

Hey Mike:

Do you think the micronizer mill may be partially responsible for the
fragility of the dough? That is, did you ever make the same recipe grinding
the flour for one batch with your Kitchen Aid and the other with the Whisper
Mill? What is the flour temperature out of the Whisper Mill? Could it
effect results? I have measured the flour temperature on several occasions
after grinding using my mill and 100F to 110F is the common range.

So far, the 100% whole grain breads that I have made using the Wheat Montana
Bronze Chief (hard red spring http://www.wheatmontana.com/store/index.php)
have made wonderful, high, light loaves without adding any gluten . It also
seems to perform better than the organic, hard red winter wheat berries I
bought at Whole Foods. I believe the taste is different, too, although some
of that could be attributable to when and where it was grown. So, so far I
prefer the hard red spring but even that could change from crop year to crop
year.

I had company over last night for dinner as a preliminary dry run for
Thanksgiving and they loved the 100% freshly ground, whole grain bread (80%
hard red spring, 10% soft white wheat, 10% rye). It was the clear winner
against a basic OSF (commercial milled flour, salt and water) and another
recipe conversion (in fairness, it still needs work) I am working on.

Two things I have noticed, however. First, the Russian appears to do a
better job leavening whole grains than the OSF. However, that difference
could be explained by my inexperience and impatience.

The Russian works very, very fast. It's very close to baker's yeast in its
activity, imho. I am really growing to favor it. However, it produces very
mildly flavored bread, which is also to my personal preference.

Second, I firmly wrench the mill closed when I grind my whole wheat to get a
fine, fine flour. It takes at least twice if not three times as long to
grind but the everything I have read says that the courser the grind the
less the loft.

>The white wheat flour STILL made a very bland bread. (I've been told that
>white wheat
> is the wave of the future. I hope not. It is *NOT* a step forward for
> bakers or people who enjoy food with taste.)

On October 30, 2006 Big John wrote in:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...90bd2bfc48ee11

>I agree about the hard white wheat. I use equal parts of red and white
>when
>I grind wheat since the taste of the white is so bland (acutally, it tastes
>bad to me).

Uh, oh guys. I bought a 45# pail of Wheat Montana Prairie Gold (hard white
wheat). I haven't opened it yet believing that sticking to one batch of
grain made the most sense while I was trying to convert my recipes. Get it
down with one variable; actually there are always at least two -- the lab
monkey wearing the apron doing the baking is never 100% consistent <g>.

Mike Avery cont'd:

> I was talking to a Great Harvest franchisee a while back. Great Harvest
> bakeries grind all of their flour fresh on premises every day. The
> owner told me that the hardest part of the business is grinding the
> wheat into flour. He commented that Great Harvest has a buyer who
> negotiates for the best wheat, and they still have problems. As a
> result, my strong feeling is that if your goal is good quality bread,
> you really shouldn't mess with grinding your own flour. It adds too
> many uncontrollable variables.

Mike, you have helped me more than I can every repay. Every time I screw-up
something you seem to have an uncanny ability to zero in on my problem. You
know more about this stuff than I ever will. However, on this I respectfully
disagree.

When grinding one's own flour, one will face some unexpected difficulties
from one variety to another variety and crop year to crop year. Of
importance is the grower/ supplier. When searching, I found Wheat Montana
was well liked and highly regarded by many. I found a local distributor
since Wheat Montana requires a 5,000 pound minimum, which includes freight,
to order directly from the mill.

Since there will be crop year differences, I bought in bulk. Next time I
will buy twice or three times as much. I keep it in a climate controlled
closet in the house. I bought nitrogen packed, mill-sealed pails versus
bags to avoid any possibility of pest contamination in storage (don't want
to repeat Dick's horror story). Unopened wheat packed and stored in such a
manner will outlast me in viability.

It ran around fifty cents a pound packed in pails. That is a significant
premium over bagged wheat berries. While that may seem like a lot, it is
comparable to local supermarket prices for slightly rancid smelling whole
grain flour that is less than 100% extraction and requires refrigeration.
Add to that the fact that the quality of supermarket rye flour in Florida is
very poor, grinding one's own made perfect sense to me. In all cases the
supermarket flour was stamped with a sell by date three or more months into
the future.

Once I have adjusted a recipe to that particular crop year batch I am good
to go, until it runs out. For me the purported, potential health benefits
and freshness of 100% extraction flour (fresh germ and all the bran) far
surpass any difficulties. The taste is head and shoulders above that same
recipe made with commercially bagged flour purchased from the supermarket.
However, I have only my family and friends to please. The choices a take
it or leave it. I am not dealing with consumption by a fickle pubic.

>Buy good flour from a mill. Let the pros worry about trying to make
>consistent flour from inconsistent wheat.

I know of no mills in Central Florida. Without refrigeration or freezing,
it is my understanding that 100% extraction wheat has a shelf life of 72
hours or less. Rye is even more fragile and corn has perhaps the shortest
shelf life.

Also there appears, with perhaps the exception of King Arthur, variations in
all purpose flour from region to region. Flour for biscuits is apparently
favored in the South.

Overall, I am most pleased with my results to date. Knowing the
difficulties that I know now in advance would not stop me from doing it
again.

Best regards,

Ray