Hi! I'm Gina and am attempting to make a starter for the first time,
and suspect that I have Leuconostic bacteria growing instead of yeast.
Thursday, at 11:30 am I made my starter with 1 cup AP flour and 1 cup
warm water in a large glass pyrex bowl. I covered and placed in a warm
corner of the kitchen. This morning there was much puffiness and
bubbly-ness. I was very excited and added another cup of each to the
mixture hoping that later today I'd have a sponge to make a dough.
After reading some of the threads, however, I'm concerned. I've heard
talk of the "cheesy" smell...My starter smells like sour milk...is that
the smell that is described as "cheesy"? It smells not so good, but
I'm not sure what I'm looking for...Thanks!

ravenlynne wrote:

> Hi! I'm Gina and am attempting to make a starter for the first time,
> and suspect that I have Leuconostic bacteria

Aside from the misspelling (if such a thing exists to begin with), your
technique needs some major adjustment. Like all of it.

Don't feed your starter until it's established, and don't feed so much
at one time.

All you need to do--take half a cup of whole grain flour and mix it with
half a cup of water or enough to make a pancake batter consistency. If
your local water is heavily chlorinated, then use some kind of
non-chlorinated water.

Let it sit in a warm place for a few *days.* Ignore it. Completely.
Set it and forget it as they say, leave it alone.

THEN when it starts showing activity, begin to feed it, and with the
excess make pancakes or waffles. Keep feeding it until it's completely
established, and THEN you can begin to bake bread.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> ravenlynne wrote:
>
> > Hi! I'm Gina and am attempting to make a starter for the first time,
> > and suspect that I have Leuconostic bacteria
>
> Aside from the misspelling (if such a thing exists to begin with), your
> technique needs some major adjustment. Like all of it.

It's been spelled exactly that way in other threads, but thanks for the
constructive critiscm. Your post was quite helpful, but my main
question was, should it reek of sour milk right now like it does? Or
should I scrap it and start over? That's what I would like to
know...thanks in advance..

ravenlynne wrote:

> ... but my main question was, should it reek of sour milk right now
> like it does?

It shouldn't "reek" at all. Of anything. Not after only a day+ An
odor? Maybe. But certainly not reeking.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> ravenlynne wrote:
>
> > ... but my main question was, should it reek of sour milk right now
> > like it does?
>
> It shouldn't "reek" at all. Of anything. Not after only a day+ An
> odor? Maybe. But certainly not reeking.
>
> B/

I figured something was wrong. The entire house smells. I'll start
over ...

The whole house smells? Yup, your right, something is very wrong with that
starter. Good starter has a 'slight' yeast/alcohol/flour smell..nothing that
would ever be noticed more than a few feet away and then only if your
sniffing for it.

Check out the FAQ in this group..if you can't find it then start here
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Good luck on take 2

--

Mike S.

"ravenlynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>

>
> I figured something was wrong. The entire house smells. I'll start
> over ...
>

Oops..that wasn't the exact link I meant, it's part of it..try this one
http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html

--

Mike S.

"Mikey S." > wrote in message
...
> The whole house smells? Yup, your right, something is very wrong with that
> starter. Good starter has a 'slight' yeast/alcohol/flour smell..nothing
> that would ever be noticed more than a few feet away and then only if your
> sniffing for it.
>
> Check out the FAQ in this group..if you can't find it then start here
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
>
> Good luck on take 2
>
> --
>
> Mike S.
>
> "ravenlynne" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>
>>
>> I figured something was wrong. The entire house smells. I'll start
>> over ...
>>
>
>

On 12/2/06, Brian Mailman > wrote:
> ravenlynne wrote:
>
> > ... but my main question was, should it reek of sour milk right now
> > like it does?
>
> It shouldn't "reek" at all. Of anything. Not after only a day+ An
> odor? Maybe. But certainly not reeking.
>
> B/

Oh man - it can stink, reek, smell like vomit and what else you can
imagine, right in the first burst of activity.

If you dare to muck with the real stuff - rye, that is....

Don't know about using white only, but I think it's counterproductive
to do it in that manner (white as opposed to full grain).

Samartha

Mikey S. wrote:
> Oops..that wasn't the exact link I meant, it's part of it..try this one
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html
>
> --
>
> Mike S.

Thanks for the link Mike! I was hoping there was one!

Brian Mailman wrote:
> ravenlynne wrote:
>
>
>> Hi! I'm Gina and am attempting to make a starter for the first time,
>> and suspect that I have Leuconostic bacteria
>>

Having a starter start that fast is unusual but not unheard of. In the
early stages of a starter, there are lots and lots of microorganisms in
the starter fighting for dominance. If you make the conditions right,
the ones you want, a yeast and a lactobacilus bacteria, will come to
dominate by many orders of magnitude. The other ones will still be
there, in diminishing numbers, for a long time... probably as long as
you maintain the culture. But they aren't important once the culture
stabilizes.

During the period where the culture is stabilizing, you can expect off
smells. They will subside as you keep feeding the starter and the other
critters become less significant.
>
> Aside from the misspelling (if such a thing exists to begin with), your
> technique needs some major adjustment. Like all of it.
>
> Don't feed your starter until it's established, and don't feed so much
> at one time.
>
There are as many ways to start a starter as there are people starting
them. Most of the techniques I've seen do have people start feeding
their starter before there are signs of life.

One of my favorites is from Calvel.

He suggests...
mix 300 grams rye flour, 300 grams white flour, 360 grams water, 3 grams
salt and 2 gram malt

22 hours later, take 300 grams of the above mixture, add 180 grams
water, 300 grams white flour, 1 gram salt and 1 gram malt.

7 hours later, take 300 grams of the above and add 180 grams of water
and 300 grams of white flour

7 hours later, again take 300 grams of the above, adding 180 grams of
water and 300 grams of white flour

7 hours later, do it again

6 hours later, do it again

6 hours later, do it again.

Despite the thickness of the starter, and the fact there are no signs of
life after 22 hours, the technique works very well. It is usually ready
for use 6 hours after the last feeding.... and it is rising nicely long
before then. I omitted the part about mixing and kneading at each stage.

I am presently playing with doing this with about 1/10th the amount of
flour and water, or 30, 30, 36, .3 and .2 grams in the first step; 30,
18, .1 and .1 in the second step and 30 and 18 grams in the later
steps. This will reduce the wastage involved in starting a new
starter. It should work, but I want to try it before I recommend it to
anyone.

It should also work to start with a much smaller starting quantity and
just keep feeding it up.... avoiding the discarding part. In the
smaller quantity version, you are only discarding 66 grams at the first
step and 48 grams in each subsequent step.

Once the starter is going, you can feed it up to the quantities you need.

Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> Don't know about using white only, but I think it's counterproductive
> to do it in that manner (white as opposed to full grain).
>
It hadn't registered that she started with AP flour. That makes things
very difficult. A number of very experienced people here have commented
that they have never had any luck starting a starter with white flour.
All of them suggest starting with a whole grain flour, either whole
wheat or rye, and I add to that, look for a flour that is stone ground
and organic as well. The less heated and the less treated the flour is,
the better the chances of success.

To continue addressing the original poster, in maintenance mode, while
my starter is at room temperature, I like to feed it twice a day, enough
flour and water to double it's size with each feeding.

If my starter is sluggish, I like to feed it 3 times a day, enough flour
and water to triple its size with each feeding.

You can continue the 60% or so hydration mentioned in my earlier post,
or use 1 part of water to 1 part of water by weight or 2 parts of water
to 3 parts of flour by volume. I wouldn't use more water than that, too
liquid a starter works too quickly.

This feeding schedule usually means discarding some of the starter, or
you'll soon have a swimming pool full of starter.

Once the starter is doing well, I refrigerate it so I don't have to keep
feeding it. A starter made with 1 part of flour to 1 part of water by
weight will keep at least a month in the refrigerator without signs of
distress. The thicker starters will last considerably longer than that.

I prefer to feed the starter, fill a container about 1/2 full of
starter, cover it loosely, and put it into the fridge at once. Some
studies suggest that a freshly fed starter suffers less from
refrigeration than a more mature one.

Hope all that helps and isn't too much to digest at once,
Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

> Hope all that helps and isn't too much to digest at once,
> Mike
>


I had no idea how involved it is...it's fun in it's way...

Thanks again for the FAQ...I just read the Starter doctor's faq and it
helped A LOT. I can see that my starter is just...wrong...I can't even
describe the consistency to you...there's a layer of paste at the
bottom. then a layer of brownish liquid, then this gloppy, stretchy,
elasticy-foamy stuff on top. It doesn't smell as bad as it did
earlier, but from reading it seems like it should be smooth. I'll try
again later with a more natural, organic flour instead of AP also...I'm
moving overseas at the end of January and will probably re-start
there...Thanks again!

Your very welcome! There is more sourdough into on line than I ever
imagined..I am far from an expert myself but I have learned so much with the
info from this group and the FAQ.

Have a ball!

--

Mike S.

"ravenlynne" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Mikey S. wrote:
>> Oops..that wasn't the exact link I meant, it's part of it..try this one
>> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html
>>
>> --
>>
>> Mike S.
>
> Thanks for the link Mike! I was hoping there was one!
>

Mikey S. wrote:
> Oops..that wasn't the exact link I meant, it's part of it..try this one
> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughqa.html
>
The FAQ is a very rich document, which means it is often confusing to
beginners.

Why? Because it covers the opinions of many sourdough bakers, using
very varied techniques. It is, as a result, contradictory.

There are a gamut of techniques in there that are currently out of favor
with sourdough bakers in rec.food.sourdough, such as starting starters
with yeast, or starting them with grapes. (If those have been removed,
well, it's been a while since I looked at the FAQ, so please consider
that illustrative of my idea rather than factual.... there were enough
other contradictory offerings in there that I am sure many survive.)

I used to think all of the "bad" sourdough techniques should be removed
from the FAQ. However, I have come to a point where I think that the
techniques we don't currently subscribe to should be maintained in the
FAQ because their inclusion is important from a historical point of
view. But it causes enough confusion that I don't recommend the FAQ to
beginners. I suggest they find a good book, a good web site, or a good
teacher until they get the results they want and have developed an
understanding of the techniques offered by their guru.

Then, branch out and look at other books, other teachers, other web
sites. You can add what they offer to a solid foundation. However, too
many contradictory opinions too soon just lead to confusion and
sourdough dropouts.

Actually... I most often suggest that sourdough beginners not make their
own starter. I get more angry notes from the "how to start your
starter" page on my www.sourdoughhome.com web site than all the rest of
the pages put together. And that's after I try to discourage people
from starting their own starter. The more times you use the word "new"
to describe an activity, the greater the chance of failure. I get notes
from people who have never baked anything more complicated that
refrigerator biscuits, have never kneaded dough, don't know what
sourdough is, but have decided to bake with sourdough. They've never
seen a healthy sourdough starter, so they can't recognize one if it
accidentally forms in their mixing bowl. So.. some of them are new to
baking, new to sourdough, new to starters.... their chances of success
are slim.

I suggest those people begin by baking some easy yeasted recipes, which
I include on my web site. And then get a known good starter from The
Friends of Carl. Once they have experience with a good starter, it
becomes a lot easier to create one.

Mike


--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Samartha Deva wrote:

> On 12/2/06, Brian Mailman > wrote:
>> ravenlynne wrote:
>>
>> > ... but my main question was, should it reek of sour milk right now
>> > like it does?
>>
>> It shouldn't "reek" at all. Of anything. Not after only a day+ An
>> odor? Maybe. But certainly not reeking.

> Oh man - it can stink, reek, smell like vomit and what else you can
> imagine, right in the first burst of activity.

Ah. You make it sound like that dog-forsaken Goldrush starter they push
on the visitors at the airport. Now *that* smells like baby vomit.

B/

ravenlynne wrote:

> I had no idea how involved it is...it's fun in it's way...

It shouldn't have to be "involved." Think 49ers (not the Niners), think
Yukon Jack. Think, more important to be out mining/panning and not much
equipment trekked into whereever to begin with.

Basically, put out a mixture of flour and water (and yes, whole grain is
better for this than AP), and let it spoil. When it looks like this:
http://www.pbase.com/rina/sourdough

You're in business.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

> Ah. You make it sound like that dog-forsaken Goldrush starter they push
> on the visitors at the airport. Now *that* smells like baby vomit.

I think they should hire you as their PR guy. You've sure made me want
to run out and buy it! <grin>

Steve Bonine wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
>> Ah. You make it sound like that dog-forsaken Goldrush starter they push
>> on the visitors at the airport. Now *that* smells like baby vomit.
>
> I think they should hire you as their PR guy. You've sure made me want
> to run out and buy it! <grin>

It's not so much the smell when it's "working" but the resultant bread
is bland and flavorless. Certainly not representative of "SF Sourdough"
and probably quite a disappointment to those our visitors who are
expecting what they had while here.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Steve Bonine wrote:
>
>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>
>>> Ah. You make it sound like that dog-forsaken Goldrush starter they
>>> push on the visitors at the airport. Now *that* smells like baby vomit.
>>
>> I think they should hire you as their PR guy. You've sure made me
>> want to run out and buy it! <grin>
>
> It's not so much the smell when it's "working" but the resultant bread
> is bland and flavorless. Certainly not representative of "SF Sourdough"
> and probably quite a disappointment to those our visitors who are
> expecting what they had while here.

That's too bad, but somehow not a huge surprise. The airport is not
exactly the ideal place to shop for a sourdough starter. Or anything
else, for that matter.

Steve Bonine wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>> Steve Bonine wrote:
>>
>>> Brian Mailman wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ah. You make it sound like that dog-forsaken Goldrush starter they
>>>> push on the visitors at the airport. Now *that* smells like baby vomit.
>>>
>>> I think they should hire you as their PR guy. You've sure made me
>>> want to run out and buy it! <grin>
>>
>> It's not so much the smell when it's "working" but the resultant bread
>> is bland and flavorless. Certainly not representative of "SF Sourdough"
>> and probably quite a disappointment to those our visitors who are
>> expecting what they had while here.
>
> That's too bad, but somehow not a huge surprise. The airport is not
> exactly the ideal place to shop for a sourdough starter. Or anything
> else, for that matter.

Heh. I always pick up a box or two of See's chocolates for my relatives
back East. They think those are some kind extra-fancy.

To be fair, my last upfront and personal close encounter with Goldrush
was 20+ years ago, and then I realized, "hey I *live* in San Francisco
why can't I just make one on my own?" (which I did, which I've kept
going, which I send out doughballs of for those who ask).

But reading the same critique several times in this group, it would seem
they haven't changed much over the years.

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:

> Heh. I always pick up a box or two of See's chocolates for my relatives
> back East. They think those are some kind extra-fancy.

We have extended family from Wales. Whenever they come over, they
usually bring tins of Roses (all milk chocolate, and not terribly
exciting), but return home with boxes and boxes of See's...

Dave

Dave Bell wrote:

> Brian Mailman wrote:
>
> > Heh. I always pick up a box or two of See's chocolates for my relatives
> > back East. They think those are some kind extra-fancy.
>
> We have extended family from Wales. Whenever they come over, they
> usually bring tins of Roses (all milk chocolate, and not terribly
> exciting), but return home with boxes and boxes of See's...
>
> Dave

Roses? Fun for the kids but you're right, not special enough to lug
across the Atlantic. Hint for some Green & Blacks or even Thornton's
next time. You won't get as many but quality over quantity. : - )

Jim

G'day Gina & all;

"ravenlynne" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Hi! I'm Gina and am attempting to make a starter for the first time,
> and suspect that I have Leuconostic bacteria growing instead of yeast.
> Thursday, at 11:30 am I made my starter with 1 cup AP flour and 1 cup
> warm water in a large glass pyrex bowl. I covered and placed in a warm
> corner of the kitchen. This morning there was much puffiness and
> bubbly-ness. I was very excited and added another cup of each to the
> mixture hoping that later today I'd have a sponge to make a dough.
> After reading some of the threads, however, I'm concerned. I've heard
> talk of the "cheesy" smell...My starter smells like sour milk...is that
> the smell that is described as "cheesy"? It smells not so good, but
> I'm not sure what I'm looking for...Thanks!
Well, I read what the others have said, and pretty well agree with them.
The only thing I would add is that as a SD newbie, I highly recommend that
you purchase or get a known, working starter from somebody.

It's really hard to figure out what you have and what to do with it when
you're not even sure that it's a viable starter. Remove some of the
variables, and start simple. Yes, there is no end of folks that make their
own starters posting here--and I'm sure they're both very happy with and
enamored with their results. I've been baking SD for years...and like to
think I've become pretty good with it. But even with that kind of history,
I've been unable to generate one that I like. Most were kinda icky and
didn't taste good...if they had any taste at all.

I guess it's fun and a challenge to create your own starter, but I recommend
that newbie's use an established one, and learn about SD first. Then, armed
with facts and experience, you have a realistic shot at making your own from
scratch...


Regards all,
Dusty




>