In a message dated 1/18/2007 3:40:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,
writes:

"PastorDIC" innocently asks:
> Does the humidity in the air affect sourdough bread baking?

It's good if you store your flour under a roof, and
come in out of the rain before you start making bread.

Next question?



My, My, what a nice, congenial, informative reply.

Are you always so helpful or must you work at it?

I wonder if this would not have occurred to him without you mentioning it.

Jim H

> wrote
> writes:
> > "PastorDIC" innocently asks:
> >
> > > Does the humidity in the air affect sourdough
> > > bread baking?
> > >
> > It's good if you store your flour under a roof, and
> > come in out of the rain before you start making bread.
> >
> I wonder if this would not have occurred to him without
> you mentioning it.

He is just having some fun asking stupid questions, and me
writing stupid replies. He's in it more for the questions than
for the answers.

Soon he well may ask about the effect of atmospheric pressure
and that will inevitably trigger a long report from Mike Avery,
concluding that there is, for practical purposes, very little
effect.

Then thunderstorms, sunspots, phases of the moon, etc. The
list is long. And there are plenty of idiots out there just waiting
for some stupidass question they can address without taxing
their meager wisdom. Potential serious posters are put off
by the resulting drivel.

As for you, possibly Mike Avery could get you
straightened out so that your posts quit coming in rich text.
Maybe he can explain to you why rich text is inappropriate,
and, while he is at it, why not just explain to people how
to post directly to newsgroups with the newsreader apps
that come with their computers, usually coming set to plain
text for newsgroup posts, and otherwise a cinch to change.

--
Dicky

wrote:
....
> Next question?
>
>
>
> My, My, what a nice, congenial, informative reply.
>
> Are you always so helpful or must you work at it?
>
> I wonder if this would not have occurred to him without you mentioning it.
>
> Jim H

Jim, you are unbelievable.

You don't know Dicky nor anyone in this group. You yourself ask novice
questions and ask for polls that are totally unnecessary and utterly
pointless and then when someone takes the trouble to give you a
reasoned reply you respond with sarcasm. There's a flux of very
confused people at the moment in the groups more intent on having their
voice heard than taking the advice they ask for. Dickey is the groups
007 licence to grump. I for one believe he has very good motivation and
intention. Unlike you with your misguided, confused, hypocritical
advice and sarcasm.

Jim

Dick Adams wrote:.> Then thunderstorms, sunspots, phases of the moon,
etc. .
>
> .> --
> Dicky

You mean like this?

http://italianfood.about.com/library...y/aa05100a.htm

Jim

On Jan 19, 1:22 am, "TG" > wrote:
> wrote:...
>
> > Next question?
>
> > My, My, what a nice, congenial, informative reply.
> > Are you always so helpful or must you work at it?
> > I wonder if this would not have occurred to him without you mentioning it.
> > Jim H

>Jim, you are unbelievable.
> You don't know Dicky nor anyone in this group. You yourself ask novice
> questions and ask for polls that are totally unnecessary and utterly
> pointless and then when someone takes the trouble to give you a
> reasoned reply you respond with sarcasm. There's a flux of very
> confused people at the moment in the groups more intent on having their
> voice heard than taking the advice they ask for. Dickey is the groups
> 007 licence to grump. I for one believe he has very good motivation and
> intention. Unlike you with your misguided, confused, hypocritical
> advice and sarcasm.

Jim-
Your first line to Jim H is a little unbelievable too. Since you don't
know everyone in this group either, how can you say a question is
pointless?

Maybe the people frustrated with novice questions should remember back
to when they first started sourdough and remember what problems you had
for a fresh perspective.
For instance, it may not matter about humidity in Arizona, but up here
in the northwest we get LOTS of rain and lots of humidity. I wanted to
know how that might affect sourdough. I can adjust for the cool
temperatures with a 25w lightbulb. -- I even have pictures of a
contraption for a proofing box thanks to Dicky despite his sometimes
caustic responses -- so that I don't have to schedule the oven or
microwave around what my wife is cooking, but humidity is more
difficult and I thought I might get answers on humidity from this list.
Jim H was just responding to a nasty attitude with appropriate
sarcasm.

If I wanted my voice heard rather than wanting to learn something I
would either state my "learned" opinion about the topics with sourdough
or be in very poor taste and write in all caps, which would really turn
people off.

On my part of the novice questions, if I had found the answers in a
book or a FAQ or on past topics in this list I wouldn't be asking them
here. I ask the questions because I want to learn something.

It is also confusing when I start sourdough with recipes from Mike A's
website, and then am treated like a football player on the bottom of
the pile when there is a fumble. I tried Mike A's recipes and liked
them. I used his 100% Whole Wheat Sourdough bread recipe I used as an
example for some questions. Then - using his recipe - I get jumped on
by a lot of people on this list as using too many rises, not long
enough rises, and not knowing what I am doing, when all I was doing was
following his recipe. I still like Mike A's recipes, but am a little
bewildered by the responses.

For that matter, Jim decides to be nice to Dicky and then is misguided,
hypocritical, and without advice in his response to Jim H.
Russ

On Fri, 19 Jan 2007, TG wrote:

> Dick Adams wrote:.> Then thunderstorms, sunspots, phases of the moon,
> etc. .
>
> You mean like this?
>
> http://italianfood.about.com/library...y/aa05100a.htm
>
> Jim

And they were going along *so* well, until that one comment!
Amazing...

(OK, I would also suggest a *live* vinegar or culture as a "starter".
Supermarket vinegar just isn't going to get the fermentation going!)

Dave

On Jan 19, 11:17 am, "Jeff Miller" > wrote:
>Pointing out that people on this forum are rude is like visiting France and
> complaining that people won't speak English. That's just how many folks here
> are. It's not a kind place to novices and newbies, and probably never will
> be. To post here and not suffer from constant hypertension, you pretty much
> have to accept the tone for what it is.
>
> There are several knowledgable sourdough & general baking forums out there
> full of patient, friendly folks. This is not one of them. When r.f.s'
> prickliness gets to you, try visiting some of the others.
>
> Best,
> --
> Jeff Miller

That's just like saying "Who cares what management at work does,
whether they follow the rules or not, that's just the way they are.
Let them do/say whatever they want whether it's right or not."

However, most of the time I just ignore the insults headed my way on
this list. In this case, someone else was getting abused because they
commented on something I said, so I wanted to jump into they frey.

Russ I think this is the post important point so I have taken it out of
the rest of the post and put it first.


You want good answers then pose good questions and be as kind with your
responses as you expect to get from your replies. This is what bothers
me about you and Jim H. I can't speak for anyone else by I suspect this
is the case.


PastorDIC wrote:

> On Jan 19, 1:22 am, "TG" <sou..mail.net> wrote:
> >Jim, you are unbelievable.
> > You don't know Dicky nor anyone in this group. You yourself ask novice
> > questions and ask for polls that are totally unnecessary and utterly
> > pointless and then when someone takes the trouble to give you a
> > reasoned reply you respond with sarcasm. There's a flux of very
> > confused people at the moment in the groups more intent on having their
> > voice heard than taking the advice they ask for. Dickey is the groups
> > 007 licence to grump. I for one believe he has very good motivation and
> > intention. Unlike you with your misguided, confused, hypocritical
> > advice and sarcasm.
>
> Jim-
> Your first line to Jim H is a little unbelievable too. Since you don't
> know everyone in this group either, how can you say a question is
> pointless?

Russ,

Read what I wrote again.

Phrase 1,
> > You .. ask novice questions

Phrase 2,
> > and ask for polls that are totally unnecessary and utterly
> > pointless

Two phrases the utterly pointless refers to the polls.


> Maybe the people frustrated with novice questions should remember back
> to when they first started sourdough and remember what problems you had
> for a fresh perspective.

Russ, don't take things so personally. Honestly mate, the people that
are taking up their own time to answer your questions have been doing
this a long time and though you might not think so there is a lot of
wisdom and compassion in their answers. It is just your ego that is
taking offence. You cannot ask questions then dictate the type of
answer you get. It's like some beggar on the street throwing back the
food he is given because he doesn't like it or the change he was given
because it wasn't enough. You just don't do that. You take it and
politely say thank you. If you don't like it then you just put it
aside. Who knows later on when you know more you might understand why
it was given to you. You cannot be a novice and think you know more
than your teacher. Even if what you think you know more if is about
social skills. You clearly are not more skilled in social arts or you
wouldn't be writing these replies.


> For instance, it may not matter about humidity in Arizona, but up here
> in the northwest we get LOTS of rain and lots of humidity. I wanted to
> know how that might affect sourdough. I can adjust for the cool
> temperatures with a 25w lightbulb. -- I even have pictures of a
> contraption for a proofing box thanks to Dicky despite his sometimes
> caustic responses -- so that I don't have to schedule the oven or
> microwave around what my wife is cooking, but humidity is more
> difficult and I thought I might get answers on humidity from this list.
> Jim H was just responding to a nasty attitude with appropriate
> sarcasm.

No, if you are thinking of yourself as a novice and by asking questions
you are then you respond appropriately. Sarcasm is not appropriate
response to something given freely. *Even if* you don't like it. Think
about it. Do you really think you will get another reply except from
some numpty who's only motivation is to show how 'wonderful' they are.


>
> If I wanted my voice heard rather than wanting to learn something I
> would either state my "learned" opinion about the topics with sourdough
> or be in very poor taste and write in all caps, which would really turn
> people off.


Like Jim J's one word response to me?

>
> On my part of the novice questions, if I had found the answers in a
> book or a FAQ or on past topics in this list I wouldn't be asking them
> here. I ask the questions because I want to learn something.

Yes I agree. But there is always someone willing to answer your
question. There is always an answer from someone here. Unlike in the
yahoo group that someone thinks is so wonderful. You know that is true
otherwise you wouldn't be posting here.



>
> It is also confusing when I start sourdough with recipes from Mike A's
> website, and then am treated like a football player on the bottom of
> the pile when there is a fumble. I tried Mike A's recipes and liked
> them. I used his 100% Whole Wheat Sourdough bread recipe I used as an
> example for some questions. Then - using his recipe - I get jumped on
> by a lot of people on this list as using too many rises, not long
> enough rises, and not knowing what I am doing, when all I was doing was
> following his recipe. I still like Mike A's recipes, but am a little
> bewildered by the responses.

Russ as Mike said to you in his advice which you haven't listened to.
He gave you the answer to that. You don't listen mate. There are many
ways to make bread. Mike makes it the way suits his taste and his
customers tastes. Each has his own way. I'm in London. There are people
all over the US and the world replying to you. Of course they think
that isn't the way. This is what Mike has already said.


>
> For that matter, Jim decides to be nice to Dicky and then is misguided,
> hypocritical, and without advice in his response to Jim H.
> Russ

Russ, I am nice, sometimes, to Dicky because he has way more experience
than I do. I am nice out of respect for someone that has helped me.
Misguided? You'll have to qualify that one. But I can honestly say with
my hand on my heart that my motivation to Jim H was to help. Wrathful
compassion it may be but my motivation is only to help. Like I have
just put in all this time to help you now. I could be out having a
drink in town but I choose to give you my time. Don't be ungrateful.
If you don't like something someone gives you freely don't be a spoiled
brat, be a polite adult, be thankful and put it aside. My advice is
given at my discretion. How dare you demand that I give it to someone
else who is lucky to have got the advice that I gave but responds to me
with rudeness. You really are very confused about how the world works.
Nobody owes you anything until you have put in the hours that people
like Dicky have.

Jim

PastorDIC wrote:

> On Jan 19, 11:17 am, "Jeff Miller" <jm..urphy.com> wrote:
> >Pointing out that people on this forum are rude is like visiting France and
> > complaining that people won't speak English....
> >
> > There are several knowledgable sourdough & general baking forums out there
> > full of patient, friendly folks. This is not one of them. When r.f.s'
> > prickliness gets to you, try visiting some of the others.
> >
> > Best,
> > --
> > Jeff Miller
>
> That's just like saying "Who cares what management at work does,
> whether they follow the rules or not, that's just the way they are.
> Let them do/say whatever they want whether it's right or not."
No Russ it's not. People speak French in France because it's their
language not because they want to be rude to the English.

>
> However, most of the time I just ignore the insults headed my way on
> this list. In this case, someone else was getting abused because they
> commented on something I said, so I wanted to jump into they frey.

Then you are the one who is misguided Russ. Where one man see Racism
another just sees a joke between friends. Okay not the best example but
you can't project your distaste on to others and dictate how others
think.

It looks to me Russ that you are trying to bully the few that are
trying to help you two. How f**d up is that? You can't be a pupil and
tell the teachers what to do. Get it sorted out Russ. What do you want
from this group? To learn to make good bread or spout your mouth off?

Jim

PastorDIC wrote:
> Maybe the people frustrated with novice questions should remember back
> to when they first started sourdough and remember what problems you
> had for a fresh perspective.
I do remember pretty well.

However, I think a more productive approach is to learn by doing... that
is, bake bread. When you have problems, ask for help. If you got the
recipe from a particular person or web site, ask that particular person
or the people at the web site. The person or web site that provided the
recipe understands it better than someone who randomly answers a message
in a newsgroup, and has more at stake in making the recipe work.

Worrying about "might be" problems, like humidity, doesn't help you
avoid problems.

Just.. keep notes, and bake another loaf of bread.

People have been baking bread in general and sourdough in particular for
thousands of years. Most of them had no idea what they were doing or
why, other than "it works". While it is interesting to know that these
enzymatic changes can occur if you to thus and such to the starter,
usually that depth of knowledge doesn't help you bake better bread.
Practice does.

In sourdough, I am pretty much in the middle of the pack between people
who do everything by feel on one extreme and those who track enzymatic
reactions on the other. Years ago, when I was a photography major in
college, the teacher said there had to be a balance between craft and
vision. If you are too obsessed with the craft of producing an image,
your vision is suppressed. If you are too concerned with your vision,
you can't present your vision because your lack of craft gets in the way.

Russ, many of your questions are too concerned with the craft, before
you seem ready to understand them. So.... I again suggest you spend a
bit more time making bread and a bit less time worrying about it. As
Brother Dom says, "It's only bread, it will forgive you!" Once you
encounter real problems with real bread, ask away!

Mike

--
....The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating
system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world...

Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

On Jan 20, 4:51 am, "TG" > wrote:
> Russ, don't take things so personally. Honestly mate, the people that
> are taking up their own time to answer your questions have been doing
> this a long time and though you might not think so there is a lot of
> wisdom and compassion in their answers. It is just your ego that is
> taking offence.
> Jim-

I'm not always sure it is my ego taking offense. Some times it's a
little hard not to think it is other people rather than my own ego
taking offense, especially when the old timers even start in on things
not related to sourdough. For instance, the message last month asking
if there was a church related to my username because they couldn't find
one listed for Battle Ground in Google.
Russ

P.S. For those wanting me to get out and bake, I should be baking a
couple of loaves late tonight.

PastorDIC wrote:
..
> I'm not always sure it is my ego taking offense. Some times it's a
> little hard not to think it is other people rather than my own ego
> taking offense, especially when the old timers even start in on things
> not related to sourdough. For instance, the message last month asking
> if there was a church related to my username because they couldn't find
> one listed for Battle Ground in Google.
> Russ
>
..
: -) This isn't the group to get into ego but you are talking about you
and how you feel your privacy is being invaded. I'm not saying it's
right what they did. It isn't at all but that's the way things are. You
have to be aware that there are those that are more interested in
digging dirt on you than responding to what you say. That's *their*
egos. They are just trying to make themselves feel better. It won't
make them feel better and they'll move on to something else because it
didn't. Be aware of it. Keep your privacy, it's none of their business.
Let it go right over your head. And do what you came here for to do
learn about baking good bread. Then when you have you can help others
to do the same. The 'old timers' might not like that either but that's
*their* egos again. You're a good guy Russ. Don't let others make you
bitter. Let it go right over your head. There's plenty of us who can
see that and appreciate it and just because there's not always someone
defending you it doesn't mean that you aren't being understood. It's
all just a big game. As Shakespear's Jaques said:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,..."
That's not to say people don't suffer but that's another story.
Jim