After 3 experiments to make a Pumpernickel-type bread with
readily-available local ingredients, I have arrived at a loaf that has
the smell, flavour and texture of pumpernickel and a crust - about 1/8th+
inch thick - hard as a rock.

I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have been
used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.

Felix Karpfen
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:

> After 3 experiments to make a Pumpernickel-type bread with
> readily-available local ingredients, I have arrived at a loaf that has
> the smell, flavour and texture of pumpernickel and a crust - about 1/8th+
> inch thick - hard as a rock.
>
> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have been
> used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.
>

24 hours at 250 F works for me - that's on my web site.
The only problem with my oven is that it switches off after 12 hours and
has to be turned on again.

But - you really need to take measures to keep the moisture.

Samartha

Samartha

On Fri, 11 May 2007 18:21:13 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote
(<mailman.114.1178929275.1438.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com>):

> Felix Karpfen wrote:

>> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have been
>> used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.
>
> 24 hours at 250 F works for me - that's on my web site.

That was my starting point.
>
> But - you really need to take measures to keep the moisture.

I had hoped that baking in a Roemertopf would do that. It did not :-(.

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> On Fri, 11 May 2007 18:21:13 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote
> (<mailman.114.1178929275.1438.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com>):
>
>> Felix Karpfen wrote:
>
>>> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have been
>>> used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.
>> 24 hours at 250 F works for me - that's on my web site.
>
> That was my starting point.
>> But - you really need to take measures to keep the moisture.
>
> I had hoped that baking in a Roemertopf would do that. It did not :-(.

My best so far was to have stainless steel (to prevent rust) baking
pans, sitting in a large flat baking pan, then pouring water into the
baking pans with the dough after a couple of hours, as the dough started
to contract - the stainless pans were leaking, the water collected in
the flat baking underneath pan and the stainless baking pans were
standing in the water in the oven while baking.

From that - if it's understandable - you may deduct the amount of
humidity present to prevent drying out.

How you implement this in your environment = ????

I would not hesitant to pour water into non-leaking baking pans - maybe
not that much and - in any case, keep the flat baking pan with water.

In any case cover the baking pans - what I have on my web site - the
aluminum foil is not good - it corrodes when in contact with the sour
bread dough.

Also - my oven has a vent opening which is taped closed.

Samartha

On May 11, 4:38 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:

> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have
> been used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.

I pretty much follow the process Samartha laid out but opted for a
water bath instead of a low temperature oven. I use very small loaf
pans so the loaves can more easily dry afterward (or cure or whatever
the buzz word is <g>).

And I use a 20 quart tabletop roaster oven. This is analagous to a
humongous rectangular crock pot. It will hold 4 loaves. The water
simmers for 12 to 14 hours. The loaf pans are loaded about 80% full
and well sealed with foil. It's been quite good so far and does not
need attention once the simmer point is established and the thermostat
adjusted to maintain it.

I hope you get your crust issue solved. Pumpernickel is one of the
most interesting breads you can make.

On Sat, 12 May 2007 16:13:04 -0600, Samartha Deva wrote
(<mailman.117.1179007988.1438.rec.food.sourdough@w ww.mountainbitwarrior.com>):

> My best so far was to have stainless steel (to prevent rust) baking
> pans, sitting in a large flat baking pan, then pouring water into the
> baking pans with the dough after a couple of hours, as the dough started
> to contract - the stainless pans were leaking, the water collected in
> the flat baking underneath pan and the stainless baking pans were
> standing in the water in the oven while baking.

wikipedia has an interesting article on pumpernickel:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumpernickel

It states that Pumpernickel dates from Westphalia - 1450.
(it also mentions the American Pumpernickel is a different animal).

I wonder what ovens and pans they used in 1450?

The next time that I try to bake pumpernickel, I will be to use a
covered ceramic casserole for holding the dough and a pan of water below
it to keep the moisture up.

But I blench at getting up in the middle of the night to refill the pan of
water.

Felix
--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

Felix Karpfen wrote:
> It states that Pumpernickel dates from Westphalia - 1450.
> (it also mentions the American Pumpernickel is a different animal).
>
> I wonder what ovens and pans they used in 1450?
>
From what I gather, wood fired masonry ovens. The pumpernickel was the
last bake of the day and allowed to bake overnight as the oven cooled.

The humidity is another matter, and I don't know what the bakers would
have done. Put in a large pan of boiling water, perhaps? While masonry
ovens to retain moisture, I don't think they retain that much moisture.
Of course, we don't know if the pumpernickel of today bears strong
resemblance to the pumpernickel of 1450.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Fingers were made
Before brushes --
Use 'em
They're much safer
You can't lose 'em
Burma-Shave

Hey Felix/ All:

I posted everything I ever did with pumpernickel on the Blog:
http://sourdoughbaking.blogspot.com/...8_archive.html I have not
baked it since. I have gone on to other issues although I still make fresh
sourdough several times a week. Just using a continuous process now.

As I said I have been busy with lots of other stuff. If anyone is
interested in this totally non-sourdough topic see:
http://orlandovanitypress.blogspot.c...ues-links.html

Best to all. I still read your posts.

Later,

Ray

"Felix Karpfen" > wrote in message news
> wikipedia has an interesting article on pumpernickel:

Nothing about humperdickel though.

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote in message news >
>
>> wikipedia has an interesting article on pumpernickel:
>>
>
> Nothing about humperdickel though.
>
>
No problem! Just sign up and add a page! Or add it to the pumpernickel
page.

Mike

On Fri, 11 May 2007 18:21:13 -0600, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>Felix Karpfen wrote:
>
>> After 3 experiments to make a Pumpernickel-type bread with
>> readily-available local ingredients, I have arrived at a loaf that has
>> the smell, flavour and texture of pumpernickel and a crust - about 1/8th+
>> inch thick - hard as a rock.
>>
>> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have been
>> used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.
>>
>
>24 hours at 250 F works for me - that's on my web site.
>The only problem with my oven is that it switches off after 12 hours and
> has to be turned on again.
>
>But - you really need to take measures to keep the moisture.
>
>Samartha
>
>Samartha

Howdy,

I use 220F for 24 hours, and put the loaf (in its pan) on a
grate that rests on the edge of a roasting pan. That pan is
filled with water that simmers along...

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 12 May 2007 17:42:39 -0700, Will wrote
s.com>):

> On May 11, 4:38 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:
>
>> I would be grateful to be <told|pointed to> bake schedules that have
>> been used by successful pumpernickel-bakers.

>
> And I use a 20 quart tabletop roaster oven. This is analagous to a
> humongous rectangular crock pot. It will hold 4 loaves. The water
> simmers for 12 to 14 hours. The loaf pans are loaded about 80% full
> and well sealed with foil. It's been quite good so far and does not
> need attention once the simmer point is established and the thermostat
> adjusted to maintain it.

Assuming that I have understood the above, you bake your bread for 12-14
hours in an atmosphere of steam at the temperature of boiling water.

At least that saves getting up in the middle of the night to refill the
pan of water!

Another route to try! Thank you!

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Mon, 14 May 2007 10:41:12 +0000, Dick Adams wrote
>):

>
> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote in message news >
>> wikipedia has an interesting article on pumpernickel:
>
> Nothing about humperdickel though.

The subsequent story is much worse.

I went to the German website for sourdough and put in a search for
Pumpernickel.

I scored 5 finds.

Only one of them was Pumpernickel; that was a German translation of Horst
Brandel's routine - as publixhed by J Hamelman.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On May 14, 3:47 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:
>
> Assuming that I have understood the above, you bake your bread for
> 12-14 hours in an atmosphere of steam at the temperature of boiling
> water.

Well... the way I figured it was this...

If you've got to seal the pans (with foil or whatever) when you bake
it, it makes sense to skip the convected oven scenario where you heat
air to heat water to heat dough or heat air to heat loaf pans.

Why not just heat water straight-away? It's more efficient. And if you
can seal the water bath vessel (with a lid) you have less work. So I
validated the process in a regular crock pot then bought a 20 quart
capacity "oven" for $28 at WalMart. It works rather well.

I know the pumpernickel standards have a longer bake time, but it
seems like the water bath works within a 12 to 14 hour time-frame. The
result is a very dark, nearly black, loaf.

Dicky posted some notes and pictures on crock pot cooking. Google
within RFS for "humperdickel". There are several threads.

On Mon, 14 May 2007 14:47:18 -0700, Will wrote
s.com>):

> On May 14, 3:47 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:
>>
>> Assuming that I have understood the above, you bake your bread for
>> 12-14 hours in an atmosphere of steam at the temperature of boiling
>> water.
>
> If you've got to seal the pans (with foil or whatever) when you bake it,
> it makes sense to skip the convected oven scenario where you heat air to
> heat water to heat dough or heat air to heat loaf pans.
>
> Why not just heat water straight-away? It's more efficient..

Hard science dictates to use a temperature of 110°C+ to get the Maillard
reaction off the ground. From the humperdickel photos, it looks to me as
though the crockpot temperature was too low for the Maillard reaction to
do its stuff.

The following quote is relevant:

| When the temperature rises above 110-120 °C, proteins and amino acids
| start to react with sugars present. This reaction is known as the Maillard
| reaction, named after the French chemist Louis-Camille Maillard. The
| Maillard reaction produces characteristic brown and golden colors plus a
| large number of taste and aroma molecules.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

"Felix Karpfen" > wrote in message news
> Hard science dictates to use a temperature of 110°C+ to get the Maillard
> reaction off the ground. From the humperdickel photos, it looks to me as
> though the crockpot temperature was too low for the Maillard reaction to
> do its stuff.

Have another look at the humperdickel photos:
http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_culture/humperdickel/

> The following quote is relevant:
>
> | When the temperature rises above 110-120 °C, proteins and amino acids
> | start to react with sugars present. This reaction is known as the Maillard
> | reaction, named after the French chemist Louis-Camille Maillard.

It is not likely that the internal temperature of a bread loaf could rise above
the boiling point of water while the dough remains moist.

Sugar browning, carmelization, occurs when the temperature of a sugar
solution rises above the boiling point of water, as water boils off and the
concentration of sugar therefore rises. Long ago high school students
were taught about how a solute can modify the boiling point of a solvent.

Under some conditions, I suppose, carmelization might confer to the
browning of bread crust. But it should be clear, case humperdickel, that
whatever browning process occurred at or below the temperature of the
water in the crock pot.

--
Dicky

On May 16, 3:44 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:

> Hard science dictates to use a temperature of 110°C+ to get the Maillard
> reaction off the ground. From the humperdickel photos, it looks to me as
> though the crockpot temperature was too low for the Maillard reaction to
> do its stuff.

That is very interesting.

The crock pot setting I used was high... so the water was simmering.
And, of course, it always simmers nicely in my big tabletop unit which
can go much higher.

I think Dicky has a point with his response though. My pumpernickel
(given that simmering water is not 110 C.) is as dark and flavor-rich
as one would want. It's certainly as dark as the examples I've seen
exported from Germany.

So I'd still give the crock pot a trial. My experience has been
good.

On 17 May 2007 07:10:22 -0700, Will
> wrote:

>On May 16, 3:44 pm, Felix Karpfen > wrote:
>
>> Hard science dictates to use a temperature of 110°C+ to get the Maillard
>> reaction off the ground. From the humperdickel photos, it looks to me as
>> though the crockpot temperature was too low for the Maillard reaction to
>> do its stuff.
>
>That is very interesting.
>
>The crock pot setting I used was high... so the water was simmering.
>And, of course, it always simmers nicely in my big tabletop unit which
>can go much higher.
>
>I think Dicky has a point with his response though. My pumpernickel
>(given that simmering water is not 110 C.) is as dark and flavor-rich
>as one would want. It's certainly as dark as the examples I've seen
>exported from Germany.
>
>So I'd still give the crock pot a trial. My experience has been
>good.

Hey Will,

My experiences have been as you describe (at a temp somewhat
lower than 110C) but I do wonder...

I do know that my pumpernickel is extremely dark brown, with
a very complex sweet taste. Something is producing all those
sugars, but Felix may be correct that it is a process other
than Maillard. No chemist I, so I ask, are there other
possibilities?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On May 17, 10:27 am, Kenneth >
wrote:

> My experiences have been as you describe (at a temp somewhat
> lower than 110C) but I do wonder...
>
> I do know that my pumpernickel is extremely dark brown, with
> a very complex sweet taste. Something is producing all those
> sugars, but Felix may be correct that it is a process other
> than Maillard. No chemist I, so I ask, are there other
> possibilities?

I think the darkness quality has a bit to do with amylase. Rye is full
of it and the enzyme continues to react with starches until 150-155 F.
So a long, low heat, bake cycle would play right into this...
converting a lot of sugars. My pumpernickel, and I'm sure your's as
well, smells really fruity during the bake... almost like apple pie.

On Wed, 16 May 2007 22:09:18 +0000, Dick Adams wrote
>):


> "Felix Karpfen" > wrote in message
> news >
>> Hard science dictates to use a temperature of 110°C+ to get the
>> Maillard reaction off the ground. From the humperdickel photos, it
>> looks to me as though the crockpot temperature was too low for the
>> Maillard reaction to do its stuff.
>
> Have another look at the humperdickel photos:
> http://www.prettycolors.com/bread_culture/humperdickel/

I did look and noted that the second attempt gave a lighter colour and was
found to be easier to slice.

> It is not likely that the internal temperature of a bread loaf could
> rise above the boiling point of water while the dough remains moist.
>
SNIP

> Long ago high school students were taught about how a solute can modify
> the boiling point of a solvent.

I believe solutes raise the temperature of the boiling point.

Which might mean that the temperature inside a loaf of Pumpernickel could
be somewhat greater than 100 deg. C by the end of the bake.

However, according to Flanders & Swan (UK presenters of witty songs; c.
1960s), the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics states that:

"Heat don't flow from the colda to the hotta;
you might think it does, but you'd much betta notta."


> case humperdickel, that whatever browning process occurred at or below
> the temperature of the water in the crock pot.

It is possible that the browning process - which takes seconds at 220
deg.C (the temperature of my coffee beans at the end of their roast) -
takes 16+ hours at temperatures near that of boiling water.

Forgetting about Rocket-Science, these postings suggest that I will be
pushing the cart uphill if I try to bake an edible loaf of bread that
has an internal temperature significantly greater than 100 deg.C by the
end of the bake.

Thank you (and the other respondents who were good enough to share their
experiences) for the posted advice.

Felix

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)