I have read the posts that say that an SD bread that doesn't brown may
have been over proofed or something to that effect...all the sugar
consumed by the beasties or some such. I am not convinced that is my
problem. If I bake it too long I tend to get scorching instead of
browning.

I have been trying to get better browning by adding malt...rye or
barley malt I've either made from roasted rye or bought at a Beer and
Wine making supply store. It hasn't really helped much. My oven is a
Dacor electric with convection capability. My husband suggested not
using the convection; I still need to try that. I have been put a
little pitcher of water in the oven for moisture.

I have used my Le Crueset pot that I bought around the time that NYC
no-knead bread recipe made the rounds, for my regular SD recipe. I
leave the cover on for about 20 mins then take it off for the rest of
the baking. The bread browns beautifully. Why? Because the moisture
is locked in the pot when the cover is on? How can I replicate that
without the pot.

Is it because I've been using the convection feature? Or, maybe I
should use the higher heat I used when using the pot...505 to 515
degree?

Any hints or suggestions?

Hmmm....

My bread recipes call for a tablespoon of sugar per loaf.

I use a conventional oven on 375 and never have browning issues except
for 'over' browning. It will turn fast near the end.

I only put a pan of boiling water in the bottom when I want crusty bread
and up the temp to 400.

Mike

Trix wrote:
> I have read the posts that say that an SD bread that doesn't brown may
> have been over proofed or something to that effect...all the sugar
> consumed by the beasties or some such. I am not convinced that is my
> problem. If I bake it too long I tend to get scorching instead of
> browning.
>
> I have been trying to get better browning by adding malt...rye or
> barley malt I've either made from roasted rye or bought at a Beer and
> Wine making supply store. It hasn't really helped much. My oven is a
> Dacor electric with convection capability. My husband suggested not
> using the convection; I still need to try that. I have been put a
> little pitcher of water in the oven for moisture.
>
> I have used my Le Crueset pot that I bought around the time that NYC
> no-knead bread recipe made the rounds, for my regular SD recipe. I
> leave the cover on for about 20 mins then take it off for the rest of
> the baking. The bread browns beautifully. Why? Because the moisture
> is locked in the pot when the cover is on? How can I replicate that
> without the pot.
>
> Is it because I've been using the convection feature? Or, maybe I
> should use the higher heat I used when using the pot...505 to 515
> degree?
>
> Any hints or suggestions?
>

On Jun 5, 10:56 am, Trix > wrote:

>
> Is it because I've been using the convection feature? Or, maybe I
> should use the higher heat I used when using the pot...505 to 515
> degree?
>
> Any hints or suggestions?

Ed Replies.
I think that bread baked without plentiful steam and without some malt
in the flour turns out gray and unattractive.
I found an old link where I baked two loaves, one w/out steam, and one
in a cloche that was spritzed with water (steam is captured in the
cloche). The loaf without steam looks just awful (or more awful).

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/S...amNoSteam.html

Included are pictures of sourdough loaves baked my normal way, on a
500F stone with a super-heated Martha Stuart cast iron pan beneath the
stone then filled with 1/2 cup boiling water just as the door is being
closed.

So, my advice: WheatMontana Premium White flour, Preheated 500F baking
stone, Preheated 700F cast iron skillet, and 1/2 cup boiling water.

Ed Bechtel

Mike Romain wrote:
> Hmmm....
>
>" My bread recipes call for a tablespoon of sugar per loaf."
>
I don't add sugar to my regular SD bread.

I have achieved a pleasant sour flavor which I like but I am also able
to make it not very sour. I started out following Dicky's billowy
loaves recipe but now I am a bit looser with it. I use my home made
mostly rye starter. It works great. I get fine oven spring. I've
been using a bit more hydration than I used to. I usually make pizza
then make a loaf or two from the dough that is left baking it later.
I use a 555 degree oven temp for the pizza. That is the highest
baking temp my oven can be set at before the broil mode.

I may try using another vessel for the water instead of my little
stainless steel steam milk pitcher. Maybe my oven isn't airtight
enough for the convection disperses the moisture too much.

Maybe I'll try the cast iron pan and up the heat from 425-450 to 500
or a little more.

And Ed, without baking in the pot my bread tends to look more like
your lighter grayer loaves.

Trix wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> Hmmm....
>>
>> " My bread recipes call for a tablespoon of sugar per loaf."
>>
> I don't add sugar to my regular SD bread.
>
> I have achieved a pleasant sour flavor which I like but I am also able
> to make it not very sour. I started out following Dicky's billowy
> loaves recipe but now I am a bit looser with it. I use my home made
> mostly rye starter. It works great. I get fine oven spring. I've
> been using a bit more hydration than I used to. I usually make pizza
> then make a loaf or two from the dough that is left baking it later.
> I use a 555 degree oven temp for the pizza. That is the highest
> baking temp my oven can be set at before the broil mode.
>
> I may try using another vessel for the water instead of my little
> stainless steel steam milk pitcher. Maybe my oven isn't airtight
> enough for the convection disperses the moisture too much.
>
> Maybe I'll try the cast iron pan and up the heat from 425-450 to 500
> or a little more.
>
> And Ed, without baking in the pot my bread tends to look more like
> your lighter grayer loaves.
>

I was under the impression any sugar left from the rise was for
browning. My bread is plenty sour.

'Gray' loaves sounds scary. We must be making totally different kinds
of bread. Mine turns out nut brown using unbleached flour.

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4292126015

I use an open pizza pan or cookie sheet and these were 40 minutes in a
preheated 375 oven.

Made pizza yesterday. Pepperoni, Italian ham, salami, bacon, onions,
shitake mushrooms, sauce, cheese and anchovies. 400 for 25 minutes and
no sugar in that recipe made nice brown, bottom crispy crust. It is in
this album:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pi...?id=4292126015

Also in that album are some sourdough French sticks I made a couple days
ago. They were on the top rack in the middle of the oven with a pan of
boiling water on the bottom at 400 for 15 min, then 350 for another half
hour. Nice and brown also. They did call for 1 tbsp of sugar for the
three loaves though. They were almost too good. :-)

Twice recently I have managed to have 'almost' 'too brown' of sourdough.
Both of these were using directions to start the bread in a cold oven
turning it on to 375 and leaving the bread for 45 minutes. I thought
they were too done, but the 'kids' (in their 20's) cleaned them up that
night so...

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
g.com...

> My bread recipes call for a tablespoon of sugar per loaf.

What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?

> I only put a pan of boiling water in the bottom when I want crusty bread
> and up the temp to 400.

There is something I need to find out about. In what way does placing boiling
water underneath make bread crusty?

> I use a conventional oven on 375 and never have browning issues except
> for 'over' browning. It will turn fast near the end.

My oven is conventional, I think, but it never turns, even slowly. There used
to be a motorized barbecue spit, but it rusted out decades ago.

--
Dicky

> What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
> produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?

The starches in nearly every type of flour are fine for browning, but
additional sugar (or fat, for that matter) will help the browning
process...

>
> There is something I need to find out about. In what way does placing boiling
> water underneath make bread crusty?
>
I don't have it at my fingertips and my science is spotty, so I might
murder this whole description and make the process unrecognizable, but
I believe there's a process by which the steam raises the surface
temperature of the loaf above the actual ambient temperature of the
oven or the surface temperature of the stone or pan. I wish I knew its
name. Jeff, I think.

wrote:
>> What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
>> produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?
>
> The starches in nearly every type of flour are fine for browning, but
> additional sugar (or fat, for that matter) will help the browning
> process...

and violate the sourdough bread pureness principle: flour, water salt,
culture - maybe spices.

Sugar and fat goes in cake!

Who wants fat in his/her bread? BLAUGHHH! - as Calvin would express it.

Samartha

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> g.com...
>
>> My bread recipes call for a tablespoon of sugar per loaf.
>
> What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
> produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?

I don't know, I haven't tried any. As mentioned, the recipes I have
call for a little sugar.

I am still a rookie so I follow recipes mostly.....

I 'did' mention that my pizza crust with 'no' sugar got nice and brown,
but you cut that part out for some strange reason which really makes me
wonder if I should bother replying to a cut and paste fake...

Here is the photo you cut out:
http://www.imagestation.com/3118614/3911929275

Are you the resident troll? If so good to meet ya, I like messing up
trolls.

>
>> I only put a pan of boiling water in the bottom when I want crusty bread
>> and up the temp to 400.
>
> There is something I need to find out about. In what way does placing boiling
> water underneath make bread crusty?

I don't really know. The 'Joy of Cooking's' recipe for hard rolls on
page 616 calls for that and it works so I don't argue. It makes the
crust thicker apparently which seems easier to brown to me.

They also call for a brush with egg or milk at the end of the baking to
brown bread more in their section on Bread Crusts on page 602.

If you want it thicker they say brush the bread when partially baked
with salted water along with the pan of water under it.

I also find if I cook a pizza or bread or rolls on a dark pan vs a
stainless pan, the dark pan will produce a far darker crust than the
shiny pan.

>
>> I use a conventional oven on 375 and never have browning issues except
>> for 'over' browning. It will turn fast near the end.
>
> My oven is conventional, I think, but it never turns, even slowly. There used
> to be a motorized barbecue spit, but it rusted out decades ago.

Un hunh... sure....

Ok, I will type it slowly this time using the Canadian word Colour.
When cooking something it normally browns near the end of it's cooking
time and starts to 'turn' colour. I find some bread can 'turn' colour
really fast at the end.

Better?

Mike

Samartha Deva wrote:
> wrote:
>>> What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
>>> produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?
>>
>> The starches in nearly every type of flour are fine for browning, but
>> additional sugar (or fat, for that matter) will help the browning
>> process...
>
> and violate the sourdough bread pureness principle: flour, water salt,
> culture - maybe spices.
>
> Sugar and fat goes in cake!
>
> Who wants fat in his/her bread? BLAUGHHH! - as Calvin would express it.
>
> Samartha
>
>

I have a totally different outlook on it I guess, me still being a bread
baking rookie.

One of my main recipe books, the Joy of Cooking, simply says I can
substitute a cup of sourdough starter to replace a yeast cake and it's
activation water in any recipe so I do....

Never really thought about 'really' roughing it with no additives to
help with the texture or colour or taste.

I am a bread baking rookie still so will have to 'play' around with more
recipes.

I want to try rye next, just can't find any rye flour!

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message
g.com...

> [ ... ]

> Are you the resident troll?

I used to be, but Samartha has been doing a real good
job of late.

> ... Ok, I will type it slowly this time using the Canadian
> word Colour ...

Seems you cannot resist acting Strangely.

> ... wonder if I should bother replying to a cut and paste fake.

Looks like cutting and pasting can get a person in trouble
where you come from. Trimming irrelevant text is considered
good here, as is focusing replies by including some text from
the subject post. Deletions can be indicated by ellipses
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis but that is considered to
be a more advanced subject.

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message
> g.com...
Trimming irrelevant text is considered
> good here, as is focusing replies by including some text from
> the subject post.
> --
> Dicky
>

Ahh, ok.

I just find it really strange someone would ask me about browning bread
without sugar and cut out the part where I showed a photo and talked
about browning bread without sugar.

Maybe you cut and pasted the 'wrong' part?

Or maybe you should just leave the whole post in there so you don't
confuse yourself?

Mike

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...

> I just find it really strange someone would ask me about browning bread
> without sugar and cut out the part where I showed a photo ...

It was pizza, I think. The anchovies and tomato sauce indeed were quite
brown.

> Or maybe you should just leave the whole post in there so you don't
> confuse yourself?

Yes, I am easily confused. Lots of folks leave in whole threads so I can
get some approximate idea of what is going on without even trying to
Google anything.

Keep up the good work. I like your lettuce.

--
Dicky

On 7 Jun, 15:18, Mike Romain > wrote:
>
> I want to try rye next, just can't find any rye flour!
>
> Mike

I think Dickey's got enough to go round. Or is that wry? Anyway it's
usually appreciated with thyme, oh, my spelling.

Jim

On 7 Jun, 15:09, Mike Romain > wrote:
>... Un hunh... sure....
>
> Ok, I will type it slowly this time using the Canadian word Colour.
....
> Mike


Canadian? Don't you mean English?
I don't remember having any Canadian lessons at school.


Don't lose your sense of humour Mike. It's good to be kept on your
toes and think about what you're writing. Okay some are of the school
that it's all just about having a nice chat but personally I'd prefer
to learn about bread. You can do both? Yeah, you can but I find you
learn more when you find out first who the ones are that know most and
don't give them a hard time. Otherwise you just get the same old crap
raked out time after time.

Jim

On 7 Jun, 15:09, Mike Romain > wrote:
> ... Are you the resident troll? If so good to meet ya, I like messing up
> trolls.
> ...
> Better?
>
> Mike

Doesn't that make you a troll Mike? I don't know how does it make it
okay to get personal with vile accusation like 'troll' because you
don't like what you read? It isn't easy trying to get the right idea
across to people, sometimes a bit of humour works best. I've seen some
people get the message really quickly and learn fast here. Others just
get into a sulk and storm off. Trust me Mike, you won't get better
help with your baking than you do here for free anyway. But you need
to put your ego aside for a minute and listen.

There's too many noobies in the other groups calling the shots because
they take offence at being told what they need to hear. They only want
to hear 'oh that's nice dear, lovely.' Well if it's your ego smoothing
over there's other places you can get that. If you want to learn to
make some really fantastic bread then chip a few chunks of your ego or
let some one else do it for you and learn to make the kind of breads
that the greats here are making.

Your Choice Mike.

Jim

On 5 Jun, 23:55, Ed > wrote:
> Ed Replies.
> I think that bread baked without plentiful steam and without some malt
> in the flour turns out gray and unattractive.
> ...So, my advice: WheatMontana Premium White flour, Preheated 500F baking
> stone, Preheated 700F cast iron skillet, and 1/2 cup boiling water.
>
> Ed Bechtel

Ed I don't know you that well so I'm not sure if you're taking the
Michael but are you? 700F?

You can make great bread without both steam and malt, I agree that a
bit of malt really helps things along and I use it a lot these days
but you don't need either. I bake at 400F and don't use steam, if I
know the dough's dried, now that I've got an electric oven I find a
quick spay if the oven's hot for the second batch does help things a
bit. But anything other than that quick spray seems like a waste of
effort to me.

Here's mine with no steam in my gas oven set to 400F, all baked from
cold on a cookie sheet.

http://tinyurl.com/2t38pf

Jim

TG wrote:
> On 7 Jun, 15:09, Mike Romain > wrote:
>> ... Are you the resident troll? If so good to meet ya, I like messing up
>> trolls.
>> ...
>> Better?
>>
>> Mike
>
> Doesn't that make you a troll Mike? I don't know how does it make it
> okay to get personal with vile accusation like 'troll' because you
> don't like what you read? It isn't easy trying to get the right idea
> across to people, sometimes a bit of humour works best. I've seen some
> people get the message really quickly and learn fast here. Others just
> get into a sulk and storm off. Trust me Mike, you won't get better
> help with your baking than you do here for free anyway. But you need
> to put your ego aside for a minute and listen.
>
> There's too many noobies in the other groups calling the shots because
> they take offence at being told what they need to hear. They only want
> to hear 'oh that's nice dear, lovely.' Well if it's your ego smoothing
> over there's other places you can get that. If you want to learn to
> make some really fantastic bread then chip a few chunks of your ego or
> let some one else do it for you and learn to make the kind of breads
> that the greats here are making.
>
> Your Choice Mike.
>
> Jim
>
>
Fair enough, but wording is important as you mentioned in another post
about my 'turning oven'.

I only 'asked' him if he was the resident troll....

I have some homemade starter bubbling away in a crock right now and I
think I might try some of this 'pure' sourdough just to see what they
are talking about. I will take photos.

I am making a loaf of regular white bread and dinner rolls anyway today.

Mike

Samartha Deva wrote:
> wrote:
>>> What about all the bread recipes that call for no sugar? Will they
>>> produce loaves which get brown in the oven, or not?
>>
>> The starches in nearly every type of flour are fine for browning, but
>> additional sugar (or fat, for that matter) will help the browning
>> process...
>
> and violate the sourdough bread pureness principle: flour, water salt,
> culture - maybe spices.
>
> Sugar and fat goes in cake!
>
> Who wants fat in his/her bread? BLAUGHHH! - as Calvin would express it.
>
> Samartha
>
>

OK, I'll bite. I am trying your basic SF sourdough off your website to
see how it is. My sponge was nice and bubbly today from a feeding
yesterday so I added a bit of salt, warmed bottled water and unbleached
flour only and worked it into a ball for about 10 minutes.

It is now sitting in a warm spot.

Mike

I've been grinding my own rye and other whole grain flours with an
attachment to my Champion Juicer when. I have also sprouted rye,
wheat, or spelt. I then put it in my food processor before adding it
to the sourdough for finish the bread dough.

Here are a couple of photos from the left overs from a loaf I made
last weekend to give an idea of the color I don't want. It was one of
two. Note that the bottom of the half is a nice golden brown. Why
would you think that would be? ( It didn't get eaten as I made
another loaf from the rest of the dough the next day or so which got
consumed in total...and had was baked in the Le Creuset.)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4qq7b4n

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5z54lqt

(I hope I did that right and don't have two photos of the same thing)

I am baking today, so I will try a hotter oven with more hot water for
steam set lower in the oven, a higher temp...and no convection...to
see if it makes a difference. I will probably also make one in the Le
Creuset again too. ....and a pizza for dinner.

Trix wrote:
> I've been grinding my own rye and other whole grain flours with an
> attachment to my Champion Juicer when. I have also sprouted rye,
> wheat, or spelt. I then put it in my food processor before adding it
> to the sourdough for finish the bread dough.
>
> Here are a couple of photos from the left overs from a loaf I made
> last weekend to give an idea of the color I don't want. It was one of
> two. Note that the bottom of the half is a nice golden brown. Why
> would you think that would be? ( It didn't get eaten as I made
> another loaf from the rest of the dough the next day or so which got
> consumed in total...and had was baked in the Le Creuset.)
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=4qq7b4n
>
> http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=5z54lqt
>
> (I hope I did that right and don't have two photos of the same thing)
>
> I am baking today, so I will try a hotter oven with more hot water for
> steam set lower in the oven, a higher temp...and no convection...to
> see if it makes a difference. I will probably also make one in the Le
> Creuset again too. ....and a pizza for dinner.
>


I see two photos the same but anyway.

If that happened in my oven, I would suspect my top heating element was
either loose or burned out or I had the rack too low.

I also would use the broiler to finish it on top if it just happened
that way anyway.

Mike

Sorry, this one,
http://i18.tinypic.com/52xwm7m.jpg

Trix wrote:
> Sorry, this one,
> http://i18.tinypic.com/52xwm7m.jpg
>
>

Looks like a one element cook job to me still. The bottom is perfect
but the top just looks like it's convection heated, not element heated.

Mike

"> Looks like a one element cook job to me still. The bottom is
perfect
> but the top just looks like it's convection heated, not element heated.'
>
It was baked in the middle of the oven and I think the top element
works...but I will double check today. The oven is 19 yrs old. I bake
pizza on the lower levels...on a stone.

Lots of times I just spray a little water within the first 10 mins.
I've tried several of the techniques described here.

Here are the results:

http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x...1181262831.pbw

I hope that one works.

The longer loaf was set on the middle rack, cast iron omelet pan with
hot water on the lower rack...I put the already hot pizza stone on the
very top rack above the loaf. The oven temp was set at 505F degrees
without convection which was probably too hot. I left the temp in
the preheat mode. Well, this one browned! I didn't pre-cut the top
this time...I tried to place the side that I folded up hoping that it
would split there....It split on one lower side.

Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> and violate the sourdough bread pureness principle: flour, water salt,
> culture - maybe spices.
>
> Sugar and fat goes in cake!
>
> Who wants fat in his/her bread? BLAUGHHH! - as Calvin would express it.
>
It's bread, not a mathematical proof. While flour, water, salt and
leaven may be necessary and sufficient to make something called bread,
that is not the be all and end all of bread. Further, some breads have
no salt, and others have no riser. I don't know of any with neither.

But, let's get to the main point - there is no sourdough pureness principle.

Sourdough is just a riser.

Any bread that dates back before the mid to late 1800's was most likely
risen with sourdough.

This would include eggy breads like Challah, sweet breads like cinnamon
breads, rich breads like pannetone (which IS a bread).

There is a big difference between, "I prefer a bread that is just flour,
water, salt, riser and maybe spices" and a statement that breads should
only contain flour, water, salt, riser and maybe spices."

Adding fats improves the crumb of breads and increases the breads shelf
life.

If you prefer a lean bread, that's fine, that's your choice. I make and
enjoy a lot of lean breads. But it's another matter to say any other
style bread shouldn't exist.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
You can't teach people to be lazy-either they have it, or they don't.

Mike, I know you weren't directing your post to me but I do agree with
you.

I have been successful in making many other recipes with sourdough
starter including Challah. That browned beautifully. I have no
problem with using sourdough starter to make other types of bread....
I've just been still trying to perfect a straight up sourdough bread
that is brown, with nice holes, and a good flavor with just flour,
water, and salt added...well I've been adding some other stuff like
dry malt, ground flax, maybe a little extra gluten but it isn't
necessary. Fat's and sugar aren't necessary either unless that is the
sort of bread you happen to want for a change.

The bread I made yesterday wasn't very sour...I want to get it
all....when that is what I want. My cuts/slits on top don't always
work well. I like the look of the ones on the real SF sourdough
French loaves I used to get when growing up in the SF Bay Area. I
really don't know how to get those...when I make cuts they get baked
over smooth whereas when a loaf splits in a lower side, where I don't
want it to; then it looks more like the ones on the SF loaves...but in
the wrong place.

I have yet to try the long baking pumpernickel bread that has been
discussed here.

All these debates....I respect all you your bread bakings skills and
those of Samartha and so many others. I've learned a lot from other's
experiences here.

Some ordinary guy I used to know surprised me by mentioning that he was
a book author, namely of a magazine-rack, soft-cover about gardening.
I checked it out, and mentioned to him that it seemed to me that the
pictures had very little to do with the text. His reply: "Well, you know,
some people just like to read and look at pictures."

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message news:mailman.10.1181269803.71750.rec.food.sourdoug ...

> There is a big difference between, "I prefer a bread that is just flour,
> water, salt, riser and maybe spices" and a statement that breads should
> only contain flour, water, salt, riser and maybe spices."

The easy way is with flour, water, salt, and leavening. If you would like
to write books about bread, the easy way is not worth more than a chapter
at most. (I am trying for one page.)

There are some simple truths about simple bread, and perhaps the simplest
one of all is that the more stuff you put in it, the less likely it will come out
in the hoped-for way and the more likely it is that you will encounter
frustration. You'll likely need some professional help.

So buy some books, look at some pictures.

Check out the fancy web sites.

Braid your sourdough!

Bust your boules!

Buy more books.

--
Dicky

Trix wrote:
> Here are the results:
>
> http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x...1181262831.pbw
>
> I hope that one works.
>
> The longer loaf was set on the middle rack, cast iron omelet pan with
> hot water on the lower rack...I put the already hot pizza stone on the
> very top rack above the loaf. The oven temp was set at 505F degrees
> without convection which was probably too hot. I left the temp in
> the preheat mode. Well, this one browned! I didn't pre-cut the top
> this time...I tried to place the side that I folded up hoping that it
> would split there....It split on one lower side.
>

Nice.

I just made a loaf that looks like your first one. LOL.

It turned out really tasty and 'nutty' I guess is the word, with a nice
texture but it didn't brown much on top.

Just starter, salt, water and flour. I let it rise 8 hours, then made a
loaf and let that rise overnight 8 hours and popped it into a 375 oven
for 45 minutes. I didn't want to overcook it so I didn't put it under
the broiler to finish browning the top. Next time I will do that or try
425.

Not bad at all, but I do prefer the lighter bread I get when I add
'ingredients'. :-)

Mike

Mike, the I wouldn't describe my final result as heavy. i have made
my share of heavy loaves...early on...dense, heavy, door stops, they
were. These have a chewy crust and nice texture.

Trix wrote:
> Mike, the I wouldn't describe my final result as heavy. i have made
> my share of heavy loaves...early on...dense, heavy, door stops, they
> were. These have a chewy crust and nice texture.
>

I also make nice light puffy white bread, so 'all' sourdough by
comparison is 'heavy'.

The one today has a nice chewy crust and nice bubble, far from doorstop
territory thankfully.

My photo album site is upgrading or something or I would have a link to
photos.

Mike

The lightest, fluffiest sourdough was when I made Challah and just
substituting starter for the yeast. I have made a nice cinnamon
raisin bread.

But, generally it is heavier than a light yeasted bread. I am not
trying to replicate a Wonderbread at any rate.

I have tried to make a whole grain bread that is less dense but
haven't had much success although they have been some tasty breads. I
made some ryes with a little molassas added and at least about 3 cups
of white unbleached flour. I think it is Will who has said he's made
some lighter whole grain or sprouted grain breads.

Trix wrote:
> The lightest, fluffiest sourdough was when I made Challah and just
> substituting starter for the yeast. I have made a nice cinnamon
> raisin bread.
>
> But, generally it is heavier than a light yeasted bread. I am not
> trying to replicate a Wonderbread at any rate.
>
> I have tried to make a whole grain bread that is less dense but
> haven't had much success although they have been some tasty breads. I
> made some ryes with a little molassas added and at least about 3 cups
> of white unbleached flour. I think it is Will who has said he's made
> some lighter whole grain or sprouted grain breads.
>
>

I like variety so bake the 'wonder bread' style bread also.

I am going to use sourdough for my next Challah for sure, that should be
good.

I am thawing/rising a frozen SD pizza crust right now for supper.
Running solo with only one of the 'kids' around tonight.

I made up a few the other day, sauced them and froze them. They sure
are better than pizza joint pizzas!

Mike

On Jun 8, 2:15 pm, Trix > wrote:
> The lightest, fluffiest sourdough was when I made Challah and just
> substituting starter for the yeast. I have made a nice cinnamon
> raisin bread.
>
> But, generally it is heavier than a light yeasted bread. I am not
> trying to replicate a Wonderbread at any rate.
>
> I have tried to make a whole grain bread that is less dense but
> haven't had much success although they have been some tasty breads. I
> made some ryes with a little molassas added and at least about 3 cups
> of white unbleached flour. I think it is Will who has said he's made
> some lighter whole grain or sprouted grain breads.

I might have <g>, but my whole grain efforts have not attained "white
bread" lightness. (If they did, I'd open a bakery and get rich like
Poilane.)

The tricks I've employed are... using slow cooked grain (from
crockpot) as part of the dough material and I avoid kneading. See Mike
A's excellent stretch and fold video. In general, for crumb
purposes... I find stretch and folding to be far superior to machine
kneading.

Will said:>

> The tricks I've employed are... using slow cooked grain (from
> crockpot) as part of the dough material and I avoid kneading. See Mike
> A's excellent stretch and fold video. In general, for crumb
> purposes... I find stretch and folding to be far superior to machine
> kneading.

I have been using my Kitchenaid for mixing the dough as adding the
bulk of the flour just until the dough comes away from the sides, then
later I used stretch and fold after that when I form the loaves.

Trix wrote:
> Will said:>
>
>> The tricks I've employed are... using slow cooked grain (from
>> crockpot) as part of the dough material and I avoid kneading. See Mike
>> A's excellent stretch and fold video. In general, for crumb
>> purposes... I find stretch and folding to be far superior to machine
>> kneading.
>
> I have been using my Kitchenaid for mixing the dough as adding the
> bulk of the flour just until the dough comes away from the sides, then
> later I used stretch and fold after that when I form the loaves.
>

Interesting....

I don't use machines for bread, I like the exercise. I do a wet mix
just until the sides pull away and pour it onto a floured counter. I
then do a whole mess of stretch and folds working enough flour into each
fold until it gets dry enough to handle it and it comes up in an almost
non sticky ball. Takes me about 10 minutes then I let it set.

I watched the video mentioned (without sound, gotta fix that) and that
seems like very few folds to me. More experiments coming up I can see.
LOL.

Mike

Mike Romain wrote:
> Trix wrote:
>> Here are the results:
>>
>> http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x...1181262831.pbw
>>
>>
>> I hope that one works.
>>
>> The longer loaf was set on the middle rack, cast iron omelet pan with
>> hot water on the lower rack...I put the already hot pizza stone on the
>> very top rack above the loaf. The oven temp was set at 505F degrees
>> without convection which was probably too hot. I left the temp in
>> the preheat mode. Well, this one browned! I didn't pre-cut the top
>> this time...I tried to place the side that I folded up hoping that it
>> would split there....It split on one lower side.
>>
>
> Nice.
>
> I just made a loaf that looks like your first one. LOL.
>
> It turned out really tasty and 'nutty' I guess is the word, with a nice
> texture but it didn't brown much on top.
>
> Just starter, salt, water and flour. I let it rise 8 hours, then made a
> loaf and let that rise overnight 8 hours and popped it into a 375 oven
> for 45 minutes. I didn't want to overcook it so I didn't put it under
> the broiler to finish browning the top. Next time I will do that or try
> 425.
>
> Not bad at all, but I do prefer the lighter bread I get when I add
> 'ingredients'. :-)
>
> Mike

OK, my photo album site is back up.

I guess I have some 'beginner's luck'. An American friend just showed
up and tried the 'basic' sourdough I made today from the recipe on
Samartha's page and he says it tastes like stuff he had recently in SF
USA so I must be doing something right. I am Canadian eh.

http://www.imagestation.com/3118614/3911471198

http://www.imagestation.com/3118614/3911470794

Mike

Mike: Nice design on top..too bad it didn't get browner, but the
inside looked great.

Since I did three things differently I am not sure which one
contributed to my better browning. Was it putting the hot stone on
the top, the much higher temperature, or not using the convection
mode? Hmmmm But then it wasn't as sour at all this time....So were
there more sugars left that contributed as other's have suggested?

Trix wrote:
> Mike: Nice design on top..too bad it didn't get browner, but the
> inside looked great.
>
> Since I did three things differently I am not sure which one
> contributed to my better browning. Was it putting the hot stone on
> the top, the much higher temperature, or not using the convection
> mode? Hmmmm But then it wasn't as sour at all this time....So were
> there more sugars left that contributed as other's have suggested?
>

Mine was really nice and sour, the sourest I have made to date.

I read someplace the longer the rise times make it the more sour?

I find if I don't put cuts in the top of slow rise bread, it will
explode out someplace strange sometimes, I have gotten some 'odd' bun
shapes. One batch looked like 6" tall biscuits.

I will use 425 next time on mine for browning. It was plenty moist so I
doubt I can dry it out that way. Maybe tomorrow, my wife finally has a
day off and likes fresh bread cooking.

Mike

On Jun 7, 5:43 pm, Trix > wrote:
> Here are the results:
>
> http://s187.photobucket.com/albums/x...=view&current=...
>
> I hope that one works.
>
> The longer loaf was set on the middle rack, cast iron omelet pan with
> hot water on the lower rack



Ed Remarks:
Wow. Those are good looking loaves. I am envious, particularly with
the nice open crumb structure that's show.

Ed Bechtel