As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I stumbled
upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!

Question 1) All of my books give measurements is cups. I can convert water
cups to grams, but the density of flours varies all over the map. I have
made my own approximations for the wt. of a cup of rye, bread flour, and
all-purpose flour. Is there a consensus for this conversion?

Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour dough bread.
I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough bread for the price
of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped it up into 8 pieces, put
them in baggies and threw them into the freezer. I have subsequently
unthawed one of them, restarted it with 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of
flour. Subsequent interactions on this theme have given me a very fast
rising starter, but the bread has no sour taste. Reading all of the
literature it seems that I am not letting the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs
first rise and something less than that for the second). The dough almost
triples in bulk during this time at room temp. Should I cool the dough or
has freezing it killed the bacteria component of the starter?

Paul Gilbert wrote:
> As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I stumbled
> upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!
>
> Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour dough bread.
> I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough bread for the price
> of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped it up into 8 pieces, put
> them in baggies and threw them into the freezer. I have subsequently
> unthawed one of them, restarted it with 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of
> flour. Subsequent interactions on this theme have given me a very fast
> rising starter, but the bread has no sour taste. Reading all of the
> literature it seems that I am not letting the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs
> first rise and something less than that for the second). The dough almost
> triples in bulk during this time at room temp. Should I cool the dough or
> has freezing it killed the bacteria component of the starter?
>
As a chemist, rather than an (experienced) artisan baker, you failed to
take into account false advertising. Most supermarket sourdough is not
what the denizens of this newsgroup are talking about. Most of that
stuff is raised with commercial yeast, and flavored with "sourdough"
additives. True sourdough need not be sour, at all. It is made with sour
or old dough, or a cultivated starter. In reality, the public has been
trained to expect sour flavor, when it's not necessary at all...

Dave

Dave Bell wrote:
> Paul Gilbert wrote:
>> As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I
>> stumbled upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!
>>
>> Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour dough
>> bread. I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough bread
>> for the price of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped it up
>> into 8 pieces, put them in baggies and threw them into the freezer. I
>> have subsequently unthawed one of them, restarted it with 1/2 cup of
>> water and 1/2 cup of flour. Subsequent interactions on this theme
>> have given me a very fast rising starter, but the bread has no sour
>> taste. Reading all of the literature it seems that I am not letting
>> the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs first rise and something less than
>> that for the second). The dough almost triples in bulk during this
>> time at room temp. Should I cool the dough or has freezing it killed
>> the bacteria component of the starter?
> As a chemist, rather than an (experienced) artisan baker, you failed to
> take into account false advertising. Most supermarket sourdough is not
> what the denizens of this newsgroup are talking about. Most of that
> stuff is raised with commercial yeast, and flavored with "sourdough"
> additives. True sourdough need not be sour, at all. It is made with sour
> or old dough, or a cultivated starter. In reality, the public has been
> trained to expect sour flavor, when it's not necessary at all...
>
> Dave

First off, hello everyone. This is my first post to the group. I'm
relatively new to bread of any kind, but I've already astounded myself
by making artisan bread better than I thought could be made at home. All
I've learned has come from 3 sources (in order of importance):

1) "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee
2) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm and other pages
3) usenet

True enough that sourdough need not be sour (Ahmish friendship bread,
for instance), but my guess is that Paul wants the sour taste, and
that's not too hard. The sour flavor is due to lactobacilli in the
starter with the yeast (the competition is what makes the leavening more
difficult). I've never started with a starter other than my own, but I'd
guess that one could take that chunk of dough, mix it with the flour and
water, put it in a jar and let it sit at room temperature, feeding it
daily, until it starts to smell sour. Of course, that also makes the
dough that was purchased unnecessary. You can get a working sourdough
without it.

= j

Jon Salenger wrote:
> Dave Bell wrote:
>
>> Paul Gilbert wrote:
>>
>>> As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I
>>> stumbled upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!
>>>
>>> Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour dough
>>> bread. I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough bread
>>> for the price of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped it up
>>> into 8 pieces, put them in baggies and threw them into the freezer.
>>> I have subsequently unthawed one of them, restarted it with 1/2 cup
>>> of water and 1/2 cup of flour. Subsequent interactions on this theme
>>> have given me a very fast rising starter, but the bread has no sour
>>> taste. Reading all of the literature it seems that I am not letting
>>> the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs first rise and something less than
>>> that for the second). The dough almost triples in bulk during this
>>> time at room temp. Should I cool the dough or has freezing it killed
>>> the bacteria component of the starter?
>>
>> As a chemist, rather than an (experienced) artisan baker, you failed
>> to take into account false advertising. Most supermarket sourdough is
>> not what the denizens of this newsgroup are talking about. Most of
>> that stuff is raised with commercial yeast, and flavored with
>> "sourdough" additives. True sourdough need not be sour, at all. It is
>> made with sour or old dough, or a cultivated starter. In reality, the
>> public has been trained to expect sour flavor, when it's not necessary
>> at all...
>>
>> Dave
>
>
> First off, hello everyone. This is my first post to the group. I'm
> relatively new to bread of any kind, but I've already astounded myself
> by making artisan bread better than I thought could be made at home. All
> I've learned has come from 3 sources (in order of importance):
>
> 1) "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee
> 2) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm and other pages
> 3) usenet
>
> True enough that sourdough need not be sour (Ahmish friendship bread,
> for instance), but my guess is that Paul wants the sour taste, and
> that's not too hard. The sour flavor is due to lactobacilli in the
> starter with the yeast (the competition is what makes the leavening more
> difficult). I've never started with a starter other than my own, but I'd
> guess that one could take that chunk of dough, mix it with the flour and
> water, put it in a jar and let it sit at room temperature, feeding it
> daily, until it starts to smell sour. Of course, that also makes the
> dough that was purchased unnecessary. You can get a working sourdough
> without it.
>
> = j
The Amish friendship bread is actually sweetened in the recipes I have
seen. However a regular sourdough bread, without additional sweetening,
may or may not be sour, depends on the recipe, timing, etc.l
Ellen

ellen wickberg wrote:
> Jon Salenger wrote:
>> Dave Bell wrote:
>>
>>> Paul Gilbert wrote:
>>>
>>>> As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I
>>>> stumbled upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!
>>>>
>>>> Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour
>>>> dough bread. I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough
>>>> bread for the price of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped
>>>> it up into 8 pieces, put them in baggies and threw them into the
>>>> freezer. I have subsequently unthawed one of them, restarted it
>>>> with 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of flour. Subsequent interactions
>>>> on this theme have given me a very fast rising starter, but the
>>>> bread has no sour taste. Reading all of the literature it seems
>>>> that I am not letting the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs first rise
>>>> and something less than that for the second). The dough almost
>>>> triples in bulk during this time at room temp. Should I cool the
>>>> dough or has freezing it killed the bacteria component of the starter?
>>>
>>> As a chemist, rather than an (experienced) artisan baker, you failed
>>> to take into account false advertising. Most supermarket sourdough is
>>> not what the denizens of this newsgroup are talking about. Most of
>>> that stuff is raised with commercial yeast, and flavored with
>>> "sourdough" additives. True sourdough need not be sour, at all. It is
>>> made with sour or old dough, or a cultivated starter. In reality, the
>>> public has been trained to expect sour flavor, when it's not
>>> necessary at all...
>>>
>>> Dave
>>
>>
>> First off, hello everyone. This is my first post to the group. I'm
>> relatively new to bread of any kind, but I've already astounded myself
>> by making artisan bread better than I thought could be made at home.
>> All I've learned has come from 3 sources (in order of importance):
>>
>> 1) "On Food and Cooking" by Harold McGee
>> 2) http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm and other pages
>> 3) usenet
>>
>> True enough that sourdough need not be sour (Ahmish friendship bread,
>> for instance), but my guess is that Paul wants the sour taste, and
>> that's not too hard. The sour flavor is due to lactobacilli in the
>> starter with the yeast (the competition is what makes the leavening
>> more difficult). I've never started with a starter other than my own,
>> but I'd guess that one could take that chunk of dough, mix it with the
>> flour and water, put it in a jar and let it sit at room temperature,
>> feeding it daily, until it starts to smell sour. Of course, that also
>> makes the dough that was purchased unnecessary. You can get a working
>> sourdough without it.
>>
>> = j
> The Amish friendship bread is actually sweetened in the recipes I have
> seen. However a regular sourdough bread, without additional sweetening,
> may or may not be sour, depends on the recipe, timing, etc.l
> Ellen

"Not all sourdough is sour-tasting; Amish Friendship Bread and other
types of live-yeast breads are also sourdough."

~ from http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm. first paragraph.


American Heritage Dictionary
sour·dough (sour'do-') Pronunciation Key
n.

"Jon Salenger" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ] (stuff deleted)

> As I said, I'm still a noob.

That's clear -- it takes the noobs a while to figure out how to
make some simple comment without dragging in the whole thread
history.

Technically, Ellen (e.g. news:gImsi.24491$rX4.9315@pd7urf2no )
is not a noob, but she is not exactly a quick study, either.

Then, of course, there's those out there determined to make me
stupid by requoting whole threads. Well, more stupid, even.

--
Dicky

On Aug 2, 11:48 am, Jon Salenger > wrote:

> As I said, I'm still a noob. I was just repeating what I'd learned from
> sjohn, but dictionaries state that sourdough has to be sour...

Well, that particular definition is a bit narrow...

If I had to guess, I'd say that the term sourdough was derived
originally from the smell of the starter. During storage it usually
develops a cider-like or vinegary scent. That doesn't mean the flavor
of the resulting bread is sour. You can make regular yeast bread
"sour" if you manipulate the fermentation correctly. And you can make
"sweet" bread from sourdough levain if you reach into your bag of
tricks and saccharify some of the flour or use a little malted grain,
etc...

Jon Salenger wrote:

> As I said, I'm still a noob. I was just repeating what I'd learned from
> sjohn, but dictionaries state that sourdough has to be sour.

You've just learned that dictionaries can be wrong.

Sourdough is a process, not a flavor. It the technique of using soured
(old) dough, retained from one bake to the next.

A similar misnomer/contraction involves "kosher salt." By nature, all
salt is kosher; what is being referred to is actually koshering salt.

B/

On 2 Aug 2007, at 17:48, Jon Salenger wrote:

> As I said, I'm still a noob. I was just repeating what I'd learned
> from
> sjohn, but dictionaries state that sourdough has to be sour. But,
> then
> again, that would make Dave's comments about sourdough not having
> to be
> sour incorrect, also. I guess I'd better start a definition thread, so
> we can all be on the same page as to what's being discussed.
>
> = j

That's because lexicographers aren't necessarily bakers. I wouldn't
go to a dictionary to learn about physics so why go to one to learn
about baking? You said it yourself Jon, you're new so why not just
ask question rather than trying to spread what you think you know?
Seems to me you'll get a better response and have more fun.

Jim

Jon Salenger wrote:
<snip>
>
> "Not all sourdough is sour-tasting; Amish Friendship Bread and other
> types of live-yeast breads are also sourdough."
>
> ~ from http://www.io.com/~sjohn/sour.htm. first paragraph.
>
>
> American Heritage Dictionary
> sour·dough (sour'do-') Pronunciation Key
> n.
>
> 1. Sour fermented dough used as leaven in making bread.
> 2. An early settler or prospector, especially in Alaska and northwest
> Canada.
>
> As I said, I'm still a noob. I was just repeating what I'd learned from
> sjohn, but dictionaries state that sourdough has to be sour. But, then
> again, that would make Dave's comments about sourdough not having to be
> sour incorrect, also. I guess I'd better start a definition thread, so
> we can all be on the same page as to what's being discussed.
>
> = j

I think the 'sour' is misleading.

It is a process to 'sour' the flour mix to make or preserve the yeast mix.

I use my sourdough starter in place of regular yeast in any recipe that
calls for yeast and 'lots' aren't sour at all.

My family really likes 'light' sandwich type Sourdough bread made with
milk eggs and butter. A nice small bubble, they don't like the big hole
stuff much, it leaks....

I find if I go for long rise times, I get sour taste, but not on the
short rises.

So when I want a nice sour bread, I start at least 24 hours before with
active sponge and feed it up 3 or 4 or 5 small feeds to get the volume I
want. 48 hours makes it have a nice zip.

Mike

Hi Jon,

On 2 Aug 2007, at 11:21, Jon Salenger wrote:

>
> ... The sour flavor is due to lactobacilli in the
> starter with the yeast (the competition is what makes the leavening
> more
> difficult).

That's not so I'm afraid Jon. There's no competition, coexistence
yes. More difficult that what?

> I've never started with a starter other than my own, but I'd
> guess that one could take that chunk of dough, mix it with the
> flour and
> water, put it in a jar and let it sit at room temperature, feeding it
> daily, until it starts to smell sour. Of course, that also makes the
> dough that was purchased unnecessary. You can get a working sourdough
> without it.
>


Sorry Jon, you're making a mistake that many people do and that is to
make lots of assumptions based on the writings of people who are
more interested in romance than facts. I realise it's impossible to
know what you don't know but you'll get further here buy asking a,
who to listen to and b, asking those people a few simple questions.
You'll get better bread much quicker.

Jim

Jim wrote:
> Hi Jon,
>
> On 2 Aug 2007, at 11:21, Jon Salenger wrote:
>
>>
>> ... The sour flavor is due to lactobacilli in the
>> starter with the yeast (the competition is what makes the leavening more
>> difficult).
>
> That's not so I'm afraid Jon. There's no competition, coexistence yes.
> More difficult that what?
>
>> I've never started with a starter other than my own, but I'd
>> guess that one could take that chunk of dough, mix it with the flour and
>> water, put it in a jar and let it sit at room temperature, feeding it
>> daily, until it starts to smell sour. Of course, that also makes the
>> dough that was purchased unnecessary. You can get a working sourdough
>> without it.
>>
>
>
> Sorry Jon, you're making a mistake that many people do and that is to
> make lots of assumptions based on the writings of people who are more
> interested in romance than facts. I realise it's impossible to know what
> you don't know but you'll get further here buy asking a, who to listen
> to and b, asking those people a few simple questions. You'll get better
> bread much quicker.
>
> Jim
>

Thanks for the advice, Jim.

It's true, I'm just repeating what I've read. In my defense, though, I
will say that I'm only repeating stuff from people whose advice has
given me great real results thus far, but then again I'm repeating stuff
I don't _know_. Of course, how many of us are looking in a microscope to
see the yeast feeding on the carbs? I think it's forgivable, don't you?

Still, I'll take your advice and just keep my mouth shut and listen
longer unless I have a question and if/when I post, I'll try to limit
myself to what I have empirical experience with. Just wanted to join in.
really. Forgive me. Having recently dicovered the joy of baking and
having had such great results, my sponge is all proofed up with
overexcitement!

I hope it doesn't collapse ;P

I'm off to try and get the holes in my crumb even bigger. Higher water
content (70-85%) and longer fermentation is what I've read (and I've had
some experience that seems to be consistent with this)..

my best,

= j

On 2 Aug 2007, at 19:15, Jon Salenger wrote:

> It's true, I'm just repeating what I've read. In my defense, though, I
> will say that I'm only repeating stuff from people whose advice has
> given me great real results thus far, but then again I'm repeating
> stuff
> I don't _know_. Of course, how many of us are looking in a
> microscope to
> see the yeast feeding on the carbs? I think it's forgivable, don't
> you?
>
> Still, I'll take your advice and just keep my mouth shut and listen
> longer unless I have a question and if/when I post, I'll try to limit
> myself to what I have empirical experience with. Just wanted to
> join in.
> really. Forgive me. Having recently dicovered the joy of baking and
> having had such great results, my sponge is all proofed up with
> overexcitement!
>
> I hope it doesn't collapse ;P
>
> I'm off to try and get the holes in my crumb even bigger. Higher water
> content (70-85%) and longer fermentation is what I've read (and
> I've had
> some experience that seems to be consistent with this)..
>
> my best,
>
> = j

Oh Jon, this post is like one of those fruited loaves. So loaded.
Relax man. You don't have to prove anything. If you know something
great. You don't have to tell us everything you know when you post.
If you don't know, great, ask and there's loads of people that will
give you the answer.

You say you want to join in, if you really want to join in you'll
need to do what everyone else is doing. There's no patience here for
self confessed noobies trying to teach their grandmother to suck
eggs. We're all learning Jon some people here have been baking
sourdough for decades some for just a few years, if you want to teach
you'd better get some pretty good books to read from and quote well
if you don't want to get a good dressing down.

I'm not saying 'keep your mouth shut' far from it, just ask the right
questions to the right people show us the bread you're making, that
will prove more than words ever can if you feel you need to, you
don't by the way. Don't expect to quote crap though and not have
people tell you it's crap.

Jim

On Jun 9, 5:32 pm, "Paul Gilbert" > wrote:
> As a chemist who hates the English system of measurement when I stumbled
> upon this group I thought I had found the holy grail!

I am not aware that the English system of measurement relies solely on
volume measurements. But there's every reason to spread your hatred
around, regardless of your occupation and training. Careful, though,
not to thin it to impotence.

> Question 1) All of my books give measurements is cups. I can convert water
> cups to grams, but the density of flours varies all over the map. I have
> made my own approximations for the wt. of a cup of rye, bread flour, and
> all-purpose flour. Is there a consensus for this conversion?

Hi. Don't know about any consensus. What might be helpful, however, is
to begin using the baker's percentage system: all ingredients are
measured as a percentage of the total flour in the recipe. Note that
the flour is 100%. An example of a fairly typical dough would be 100%
flour + 65% water + 2% salt. Weigh all the ingredients and forget
about conversions from cups to grams, or whatever. The hydration,
usually water, in so-called "artisan" breads (term used to elicit
greater reverence than a lowly "regular" bread, which may taste and
look identical but made by someone without the credentials for
creativity that only an expensive art education can supply) varies.
But you'll likely come close to around 65% for white all-purpose
flour, say 11.5% protien. It depends on the absorption rate of the
flour you're using. Your chemistry background will no doubt provide
you with the skills to determine this by analysing in your home lab
the components of the types of flours you are planning to make bread
with. Then hydration determination will be a cinch. You can also do a
search on this site for more information on the subject. I've no doubt
it has been discussed ad naseum.

I Hope this helps.
-Erich

On Jun 9, 7:32 pm, "Paul Gilbert" > wrote:

> Question 1) All of my books give measurements is cups. I can convert water
> cups to grams, but the density of flours varies all over the map. I have
> made my own approximations for the wt. of a cup of rye, bread flour, and
> all-purpose flour. Is there a consensus for this conversion?

Not that I know of. I use 140 to 160 grams per cup. Most bread writers
(Hammelman, Reinhart, Lepard, Beranbaum, to name a few) provide
formulas in grams these days.

>
> Question 2) A local supermarket produces quite acceptable sour dough bread.
> I smiled real big and got a loaf of unbaked sour dough bread for the price
> of a finished loaf. I brought it home, chopped it up into 8 pieces, put
> them in baggies and threw them into the freezer. I have subsequently
> unthawed one of them, restarted it with 1/2 cup of water and 1/2 cup of
> flour. Subsequent interactions on this theme have given me a very fast
> rising starter, but the bread has no sour taste. Reading all of the
> literature it seems that I am not letting the dough rise long enough. (2 hrs
> first rise and something less than that for the second). The dough almost
> triples in bulk during this time at room temp. Should I cool the dough or
> has freezing it killed the bacteria component of the starter?

I would investigate that supermarket's sourdough claim. A really
active starter... one that has been refreshed (not expanded) several
times will prove dough in 2 or 3 hours, but something from the
freezer, with only one refreshment should be a bit slower. This
suggests the common sourdough starter + active yeast "booster" game is
in play here. A lot of bakeries do this. It's not bad... but it's not
naturally leavened bread.

What you could do is take one of your frozen pieces and run it through
a series of refreshments, say, twice a day for 4 or 5 days at room
temperature. The result from that serial refreshment cycle should re-
balance your levain to it's renewable populations.