I've often wondered, and maybe this has been covered (if so my
apologies).

If I would buy a true San Francisco sourdough starter wouldn't my
local wild "Chicago" yeast eventually overpower or dilute the original
"San Francisco" starter wild yeast over time?

Thanks - YeastPuppet

It has been covered excessively - use Google to search for it.

First you will need to define what is a "true San Francisco sourdough
starter" for you.

a - a starter grown from scratch in the San Francisco vicinity from
Montana hard wheat flour (or any other flour bought).

b - a starter kit bought in a package with the labeling "San Francisco"
from a vendor online or supermarket/health-food store.

c - a sourdough starter which can be used to make San Francisco style bread.

d - a starter grown with continuous propagation for a long time in an
established bakery making excellent sourdough bread without yeast and
other additives and therefore containing the Lactobacillus Sanfrancisco
bacteria.

Sourdough starter cultures can be very stable and, if treated properly
will not change for decades (as confirmed so far) in their characteristics.

(maybe you are just trolling?)

Samartha


wrote:
> I've often wondered, and maybe this has been covered (if so my
> apologies).
>
> If I would buy a true San Francisco sourdough starter wouldn't my
> local wild "Chicago" yeast eventually overpower or dilute the original
> "San Francisco" starter wild yeast over time?
>
> Thanks - YeastPuppet
>
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>

On Jun 10, 10:48 am, Samartha Deva <sdnews-inbox-EEE-
> wrote:
> It has been covered excessively - use Google to search for it.
>
> First you will need to define what is a "true San Francisco sourdough
> starter" for you.
>
> a - a starter grown from scratch in the San Francisco vicinity from
> Montana hard wheat flour (or any other flour bought).
>
> b - a starter kit bought in a package with the labeling "San Francisco"
> from a vendor online or supermarket/health-food store.
>
> c - a sourdough starter which can be used to make San Francisco style bread.
>
> d - a starter grown with continuous propagation for a long time in an
> established bakery making excellent sourdough bread without yeast and
> other additives and therefore containing the Lactobacillus Sanfrancisco
> bacteria.
>
> Sourdough starter cultures can be very stable and, if treated properly
> will not change for decades (as confirmed so far) in their characteristics.
>
> (maybe you are just trolling?)
>
> Samartha
>
> wrote:
> > I've often wondered, and maybe this has been covered (if so my
> > apologies).
>
> > If I would buy a true San Francisco sourdough starter wouldn't my
> > local wild "Chicago" yeast eventually overpower or dilute the original
> > "San Francisco" starter wild yeast over time?
>
> > Thanks - YeastPuppet
>
> > _______________________________________________
> > Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
> >
> >http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough

Hi Samantha

I'm a commercial yeast guy bread baker - I think I'm confused on what
is meant by "wild" yeast as versus a specific "named" yeast strain.
When I say a San Fransisco starter I'm referring to a purchased
starter like those from Sourdough International.

I tried to make a sourdough starter years ago and ended up with a
gooey mess that had a pleasant rich aroma but sure didn't leaven worth
a darn. More than likely I did something wrong, but never fooled with
sourdough again.

So if I try making my own starter again will I end up with a "Chicago
Area" sourdough starter which willl only allow me to make "Chicago
Area" flavored bread? And what is so mystical about San Francisco
sourdough? Is it the flavor, texture, or merely mystique? Is SF
bread considered the standard reference bread for sourdough bakers?

Sometimes Google and I don't get along! I know what I'm looking for,
and the quality of the answer depends on the quality of the query. So
I figured I'd go right to the source and check with the experts. What
do you mean about trolling?

Thanks for your patience and help - Phil

YeastPuppet wrote:
....
> Hi Samantha
>
> I'm a commercial yeast guy bread baker - I think I'm confused on what
> is meant by "wild" yeast as versus a specific "named" yeast strain.
> When I say a San Fransisco starter I'm referring to a purchased
> starter like those from Sourdough International.

Ah - well that's another can of worms. There was a "thread" about
"authenticity" of a SF (grown there from bought flour) starter and I got
off on it for another reason - so...

Under that aspect, I discovered that SDI is now offering a "guarantee"
of their SF starter to contain the LB SF. Well - I emailed and asked for
background of that "guarantee" - what it exactly is. Here is what I
got back:

> Ed Wood wrote:
>> Hi Smartha:
>>
>> The question you ask is highly proprietary and I cannot give you the answer.
>> Try the culture and I think you will agree.
>>
>> Ed Wood

That much for the value of a Internet web site "guarantee" if you
believe in it and don't ask what it means.

You are a bit yeast bound. With SD, it's two, LB's and yeasts. The LB's
are considered the more important one's here.

There are minuscule numbers of SD viable organisms on grain and numerous
others. When you put water on, all grows initially but eventually the
LB's will create enough acidity to make the other "stuff" die off and
then they will dominate with another dominating yeast strain.

It is a random process and when I did it and documented it
(samartha.net/SD), the same flour and treatment grown in two different
(sterilized) containers resulted in two distinct starter qualities.

So - a SD culture grown in that manner would be what you call a "wild",
or (my definition?) natural SD starter. One can make bread in that manner.

With established starters it's different. You get something more defined.

The SF SD story is marketing. The organism LB SF was first isolated from
SF bakeries by Kline/Sugihara and named thereafter. The organism has
been determined to produce best quality bread properties and occurs in
bakeries which do continuous sourdough propagation all over the planet.
It has not yet been found in nature - only in bakeries.

> I tried to make a sourdough starter years ago and ended up with a
> gooey mess that had a pleasant rich aroma but sure didn't leaven worth
> a darn. More than likely I did something wrong, but never fooled with
> sourdough again.

That can happen.

> So if I try making my own starter again will I end up with a "Chicago
> Area" sourdough starter which willl only allow me to make "Chicago
> Area" flavored bread? And what is so mystical about San Francisco
> sourdough? Is it the flavor, texture, or merely mystique? Is SF
> bread considered the standard reference bread for sourdough bakers?

What grows as a new starter is determined from organisms in the flour
(nature, manure, mold etc.). The flour you get in the store is most
likely not from Chicago.

A newly grown starter will take some time to establish itself. I don't
think there is a standard in the US for sourdough breads, or the
supermarkets would not have their ability to make SF sourdough bread.

> Sometimes Google and I don't get along! I know what I'm looking for,
> and the quality of the answer depends on the quality of the query. So
> I figured I'd go right to the source and check with the experts. What
> do you mean about trolling?

Trolling is posting for the effect of getting maximum number of
responses - stir the pot in a newsgroup and trigger other trolls to come
out and hey - there are 100 posts a day about some nonsense.

Apparently, you are not a troll with your question - but the questions
you ask have high trolling potential.

> Thanks for your patience and help - Phil

My pleasure,

Samartha

For what it's worth, two cents from an amateur home baker... I baked
all sorts of sourdoughs in Boston, MA for over a year. I've recently
moved to Oakland, CA (just over the bridge from SF) and made a new
starter from scratch. The mature starter has a slightly different
aroma than it did in New England (more fruity and floral, less yeasty
and doughy), but I honestly can't tell much difference in the finished
loaves. The quality and flavor seem to have a lot more to do with
ingredients, time, and temperature than geography.

Happy baking,
Matt