I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...

Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
for my first sourdough bread) but most of the time they are quite
heavy and I was wondering if leaving them to rise longer would make it
lighter.

If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

Thanks
Julie
Northern Ireland...

On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 11:33:03 -0700, Julie wrote:

>................ could I please get tips for making lighter
> white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
> light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.
>
If you're using water...
Try increasing the water amount. You might start with 70% water to
flour. If you find this works you can work your way up to 100% or more
and you should have a very light loaf.

Letting the bread rise longer doesn't make the bread lighter exactly
but it makes the loaf bigger ! Don't let it go too long!!!

"Julie" > wrote in message =
om...

> Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Definitely!

I think that the volume of the finished loaf should be about five=20
times the volume of the unrisen dough. Sometimes the rising
dough poops out before it has risen very much, and avoiding
that occurrence is pretty much the name of the game when it
comes to light loaves, in the sense of not being dense.

> I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be light or heavy....

I like light sourdough bread, but most people, I think, feel that
sourdough should be a bit dense. Sourdough rises more slowly
than yeasted dough, and there are more things that can go wrong
which would limit the amount of rise which can be obtained.

It is easier to get a good rise with conventionally yeasted dough
than with sourdough. That may be the reason that most people
feel that sourdough should be a bit dense. If you follow the usual
advice for sourdough loaves, they will probably be pretty dense.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

[[ This message was both posted and mailed: see
the "To," "Cc," and "Newsgroups" headers for details. ]]

In article >, Julie
> wrote:

> I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...
>
> Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Yes.

You may want to look at

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoigetthatloftyloaf.html

and

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/whatisme...lyactivat.html

> I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
> for my first sourdough bread

Ensure you have a stable active starter for a lighter loaf. Making your
starter can have its difficulties...

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/shouldiu...lishedsta.html

If you do want to make your starter here are some tips...

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howcanis...terfromsc.html

>
> If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
> white yeast breads.

More yeast, let rise longer.

>I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
> light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

A matter of personal taste, generally people like a lighter loaf,
achieved with an active starter and allowing to rise sufficiently.

Cheers,

Darrell

--
To reply, substitute .net for .invalid in address, i.e., darrell.usenet2 (at)
telus.net

"Julie" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...
>
> Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

Yes at least to a point.....if you wait too long quite the opposite will
happen. During the rise the dough will spring back when poked gently with a
finger....when it dimples slightly or loses that spring its ready for the
bake.

> If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
> white yeast breads. I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be
> light or heavy....but if both apply please advise on how to do both.
> Thanks
> Julie
> Northern Ireland...

A bread flour or additional gluten in the flour and sufficient kneading
(gluten development) seems to help with a greater loft. Using a pan instead
of a freeform loaf will assist in additional loft as well. Soggy

Rod & BJ wrote:

> Yes at least to a point.....if you wait too long quite the opposite will
> happen. During the rise the dough will spring back when poked gently with a
> finger....when it dimples slightly or loses that spring its ready for the
> bake.

Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
the dough again becomes tight again?

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

In message lid...
"Darrell Greenwood" > recommended=20

> http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/howdoige...tyloaf.html=20

It is perhaps significant that that particular piece was submitted
by a professional baker (one who bakes as a vocation). He uses
a number of words and concepts which are possibly not familiar=20
to a novice, or, to say the least, are wanting for further elaboration,
for instance:

> correct consistency=20
> percent hydration
> fermentation=20
> kneading
> dividing and rounding
> prefermentation stages
> sponge=20
> leaven=20
> active starter.
> shaping
> finished loaf=20
> plastic doughs
> elastic and extensible doughs
> well hydrated
> well kneaded=20
> pre-shape
> pre-stretch=20
> dough structure
> gluten tension=20
> underproofing=20
> overproofing
> perfect proofing

Personally, I am most joyfully titillated by the concept of perfect=20
proofing.=20

When it comes to=20

> weigh rather than volume-measure ingredients

I think that is an arbitrary stringency. But for one who does have
a scale or balance, calibrating the measuring cup in terms of=20
ounces or grams of flour makes good sense.

Regards to=20

> very sharp knife

http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/razorsharpknives.html

is very good. But, if you are short on time, a razor blade will
do the job. =20

With regard to the possibility that old Julie will get all of the=20
information she needs by asking several questions, we can only
hope.

Here is a place where there are not so many words from=20
Professional Baking 101:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di.../panbread.html

and a simple way of making loaves which have a slightly artisanal
appearance:

http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/EZSDLoaves

for what its worth.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

"Samartha Deva"
> Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
> the dough again becomes tight again?
>
> Samartha

Often as not it would depending on number of rises already taken but here
its not particularly germane since the express purpose is additional loft or
maximum rise with a assumption that the dough has already been formed and is
oven ready. To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
development...do you think otherwise?

Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression" for the
optimum rise to bake timing?

My normal or average white bread has a 8-12 hr sponge stage, then I add
salt, maybe shortening, additional flour, knead, shape and rise 4-5 hours
(all times depending on room temps). In previous experiments any extended
proofing may have changed flavors but did not result in additional loft and
usually resulted in lower, flatter loaves(presumed degraded gluten)....most
of my bread is freeform loaves or rolls. Until I began using ConAgra Harvest
bread flour(Costco 50lb bags) I just used a all purpose flour with
occasionally added gluten(especially with longer proofs)...I do think the
texture and loft has improved with the ConAgra flour. Soggy

"Rod & BJ" > wrote in message =
...

> ... To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
development...do you think otherwise? ...

I think that. At least for sourdough.

> Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression"=20
> for the optimum rise to bake timing?

Well, I have experienced circumstances where the dough loaves were=20
still rising at the time then they grew too big for the container =
("proofing
box" they were rising in, maybe 6 or 7 fold volume increase (relative to
the volume of the original unrisen dough). Unfortunately, I have not=20
found out how to duplicate these circumstances at will.

> In previous experiments any extended proofing may have changed=20
> flavors but did not result in additional loft and usually resulted in =
lower,=20
> latter loaves (presumed degraded gluten)....

The truism is that multiple rises punctuated with punchdowns=20
yield an improved result. That may work better for conventionally=20
yeasted bread. There fermentation is very rapid, compared to=20
sourdough fermentation. Perhaps so rapid that nutrients are=20
locally depleted (in the regions near yeast cells) faster than=20
they can restored by diffusion. So a brief rekneading, described=20
as a "punchdown" may serve to redistribute the cells and their=20
nutrients, as is popularly thought.

Another thing -- with conventionally yeasted dough, it is very=20
unlikely that the number of yeast organisms increases during=20
fermentation -- as one of the sourdough sages has said, it just=20
takes one cough per cell to effect the rise. With sourdough,=20
through the build stages, there is certainly an increase, and,=20
with a long and/or warm rise (fermentation) of the final dough=20
loaf, it seems quite likely that the number of organisms=20
increases even in the dough stage.

So, it seems to me that the fermentation process with sourdough=20
is different, and certainly more leisurely. So the rules for=20
conventionally yeasted dough do not necessarily apply.

The rise endpoint which strikes me as the most usual is when the=20
dough becomes porous so that gas is not held. That would most=20
likely be due to gluten degradation. So a major feature of the=20
drill would be to avoid that. Being gentle with the dough is one=20
possibility.

Another thing to be stressed is that since sourdough fermentation=20
is quite slow compared with the usual yeasted dough, self-
kneading is a real possibility. If one believes that, and what is=20
said above, it makes sense to minimize mechanical abuse to the=20
dough so far as reasonable.

To me, it seems quite certain that the sourdough flavors are=20
developed during the rise, notwithstanding that certain flavors=20
are developed in the crust incident to the reactions which cause=20
browning. Therefore it must be allowed that a reformation=20
(reshaping) of the loaves sometime during the rise may be needed=20
sometimes to allow the fermentation to complete (for optimum=20
flavor) without the doughloaf bloating excessively.

It seems likely to me, and it has been said by some, that the=20
reshaping, if done right, and at the right point in the rising of=20
the doughloaf, may coalesce the forming gas (carbon dioxide)=20
bubbles in a manner which will lead to the desirable holey=20
structure in the baked loaf. (A major objective in my SD quest=20
is to obtain the holey bread by doughloaf manipulation rather than=20
the extensive oven technology and trickery that is usually=20
prescribed.)

Of course the questions were for Samartha, who does rye bread=20
mostly, which is altogether different than the white SD bread I=20
try to make. So let's see what he has to say.

---
DickA

Rod & BJ wrote:
>
> "Samartha Deva"
> > Have you tried at this point to punch it down and maybe discovered that
> > the dough again becomes tight again?
> >
> > Samartha
>
> Often as not it would depending on number of rises already taken but here
> its not particularly germane since the express purpose is additional loft or
> maximum rise with a assumption that the dough has already been formed and is
> oven ready.

AFAICS, this (number of rises done and loaf being oven ready) has not
been brought up in this thread - maybe in the URL's given. This would be
the last step before baking. I considered the original question to be
more general.

> To my understanding multiple or extended rises would be for
> flavor enhancement and/or timing issues rather than additional gluten
> development...do you think otherwise?

My observation is that with a "punch down" i. e. press and stretch after
a certain time of fermenting several things besides taste issues are
accomplished. Two are improvement (tightening) of the dough and increase
of fermentation vigor.

I was not so much concerned about the "rise time" as you bring up rather
than the "punch down" - I don't know if the prof's would call this dough
development.

So, well tempered "stronger" dough in connection with appropriate
hydration and increased fermentation activity sure would contribute to
loft.

> Do you suggest something other than the "dimpled finger depression" for the
> optimum rise to bake timing?

I find this inconclusive and that's why I brought it up. If it works for
you - great. For me, the dough can rip open structurally due to fast
rise and when punching it down, it comes right back strong. All within
your 4-5 hour time frame. Would you dimple with the finger before the
punch down, it would be baking time. Would you do it after the punch
down, it would not be baking time. If you have a wet dough, you can't
dimple because the dough sticks to your finger - then what? Don't have a
method to determine baking time and can't bake?

Can I suggest something else? Well, the issue with Julie getting dense
loafs may not be solved with the finger dimple test. So, getting to know
your starter and dough by experimenting and changing things could lead
to more improvement than blindly doing the dimple test and hoping it
works.

It seems that people like Julie want an instant solution with sourdough
- give me the recipe or tell me how it works so I get the result I want.
Then, when one asks for more details what is happening, what caused the
issue, they drop the ball or do the yeast thing.

You did not answer the question if you get a denser dough with a
punchdown after the dimple test shows it's baking time.

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

Samartha Deva wrote:

> ...I find this inconclusive and that's why I brought it up....

> ... If you have a wet dough, you can't
> dimple because the dough sticks to your finger - then what? Don't have a
> method to determine baking time and can't bake?...

Someone, Perhaps Janet Bostwick, suggested lightly pressing the palm of your hand
or the flat of your fingers against the dough to determine the state of the rise.
The results are not as easy to describe as poking the dough with a finger and
seeing if the dimple fills in, but with practice you get more information about
the dough. Flour the dough or the fingers if the dough is sticky.

If you have long experience with a certain recipe, after a while you can tap the
pan or basket and see how the vibration propagates through the dough to check the
state of the dough.

Speaking here of plain white bread. I only attempt rye when I am taunted into it
by Ticker. That is usually when she feels my ego needs to be taken down a notch
or two.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Samartha Deva > wrote in message
>
> It seems that people like Julie want an instant solution with sourdough
> - give me the recipe or tell me how it works so I get the result I want.
> Then, when one asks for more details what is happening, what caused the
> issue, they drop the ball or do the yeast thing.
>
> You did not answer the question if you get a denser dough with a
> punchdown after the dimple test shows it's baking time.
>
> Samartha
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


Samartha


I don't know how you came to the conclusion that by asking questions
"People like Julie "
want an instant solution. I haven't even gotten a starter that is fit
to use yet. I am only asking
questions as they come to my head so that when I am READY to make my
FIRST LOAF
EVER of sourdough bread I will have a better understanding of how it
all goes together. I
fully understand the concept of fiddle a bit to find what works for
the individual person and
the starter they have chosen to use.

I haven't yet had the chance to "DROP the BALL" or "DO the YEAST
THING". I took
quite a lot of time before I attempted a starter and until my starter
becomes satisfactory to
me I am still taking a lot of time reading and trying to understand
in simple terms ( I am
trying to also get my kids interested and they don't understand
overblown explanations I
have seen on a few websites) what is going on in the making of
sourdough bread.

I am perfectly happy take time doing things right and wasting
materials when I don't feel things are going as well as they should
be. I can take time waiting for a loaf to proof. And am willing to ask
questions along the way.

Asking questions is not taking the easy way out....that is how people
have always
LEARNED....by asking people who KNOW BETTER than themselves...

So while I am honestly not offended...I suggest you take some time to
think before making generalised and sweeping comments about people
whom you know nothing about "People Like Julie " do not appreciate it
very much.



Thanks

Cheers to you.

Julie

Julie wrote:
<stuff>

I think Samartha's just a bit fed up with the questions new people tend
to ask.

David

Feuer > wrote
>
> I think Samartha's just a bit fed up with the questions new people tend
> to ask.
>
> David


I can understand if this is the case. However this is (I am guessing)
a place where new people can come to ask questions from people who are
more experienced.

If Samartha is a bit fed up with questions from new people perhaps he
should refrain from answering those he finds particularly inane and
leave them to those who don't mind new people who appreciate those on
this forum who are worth learning from.

I am not new to baking in general ....but I am new to sourdough
making. And I haven't many places to learn it from. I can read all
the FAQ's and how to website I want....but it still does not compare
with advice from ACTUAL people who may have found alternate ways to do
things.

And as a side note: My original question was basically a yes or no
with only a simple explaination or link to relevant info needed.

Cheers
Julie

Hey Julie,

You are certainly not the first person to earnestly seek information,
just to be ridiculed (intentionally or not) by other contributors, or
to have one's questions questioned in a way that seems disdainful.
Certainly a shame you were given reason to make the response you did.

While there are likely to be a complex range of reasons why people do
such things in a forum designed for information sharing, I imagine one
is not viewing these exchanges as an opportunity to be helpful to
others (and failing to empathetically understand where those others
are coming from). Instead, it seems it is sometimes taken as an
opportunity to display one's supposed
knowledge/mastery/discernment/taste, and/or to mess with people (out
of fun or disdain).

I am not sure what Samartha's up to, but FYI, his frequent
contributions IMO offer a mix of wonderfully helpful and insightful
suggestions, and self-righteous judgments.

As for the idea of being fed up with newbie questions, perhaps
starting a new ng would be appropriate, perhaps:

rec.food.sourdough.advanced
rec.food.sourdough.wiseonesonly
rec.food.sourdough.holierthanthou

or for the generally curmudgeonly:

rec.food.sourdough.n'erdowell

"Julie" > wrote in message =
om...

> My original question was basically a yes or no with only a simple
> explanation or link to relevant info needed.

I saw the question as complex and multipartite, to wit:

(1) Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?

(2) If this is not the case could I please get tips for making lighter
white yeast breads. =20

(3) I don't know if sourdoughs are supposed to be light or heavy....

(4) but if both apply please advise on how to do both.

Your question(s) inspired some discussion, and some links were
given. It would be difficult to conclude that a yes or no answer=20
was in the cards for your particular question(s).

I would like to ask you this, Julie from North Ireland: Did you
feel that any of the discussion in the thread which followed your
inquiry was useful?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Julie wrote:

> Samartha
>
> I don't know how you came to the conclusion that by asking questions
> "People like Julie "
<-->

Well Julie, you are right. Maybe I should have been more considerate. I
thought you were gone.

Now, with your original post:

> I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
> for my first sourdough bread) but most of the time they are quite
> heavy and I was wondering if leaving them to rise longer would make it
> lighter.

As I understand this, you are getting dense loafs with yeast for some
reason and like it to be different with sourdough?

What recipe and procedure are you using when you make your bread to get
this result?

When you make such a statement: "most of the time ... quite heavy", it's
like: "I have a car, it starts but goes kind of slow and I am wondering
if I use a different fuel brand, would it run better?". Ask a car
mechanic this question, look at his face and figure what he thinks about
you. Maybe he makes an association you better don't want to know...

It may be a good idea to get the dough mechanics to work with baker's
yeast and once this turns out all right, use sourdough.

With sourdough, you introduce a lot more complexity and with it not
being working well with baker's yeast, it may not be a good starting
place.

Maybe this helps:

http://www.pbs.org/juliachild/eaters/artisan.html

Forget about the starter creation if it's Nancy Silverton's grape
starter baloney, but the other videos could be informative:

Decorative Sourdough Loaves
French Baguette, Part 1
French Baguette, Part 2

Although Joe Ortiz's air yeast catching statements are painful to listen
to and definitely misleading - looks to me there is a lot of odd
information in the videos and I think it's good to watch it "between the
lines". I definitely found it helpful.

Good luck,

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one

"matt s" > wrote in message
om...
>
> As for the idea of being fed up with newbie questions, perhaps
> starting a new ng would be appropriate, perhaps:
>
> rec.food.sourdough.advanced
> rec.food.sourdough.wiseonesonly
> rec.food.sourdough.holierthanthou
>
> or for the generally curmudgeonly:
>
> rec.food.sourdough.n'erdowell

I love it! I'd go to any one just for the entertainment.
Janet

"Julie" > wrote in message
om...
> I have a question for both regular bread and sourdoughs...
>
> Does leaving the dough to rise longer result in a lighter loaf?
> Thanks
> Julie
> Northern Ireland...

The first thing that I wanted to know Julie, is 'how do you decide how long
to let the dough rise?'
Janet

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
>
> Your question(s) inspired some discussion, and some links were
> given. It would be difficult to conclude that a yes or no answer
> was in the cards for your particular question(s).
>
> I would like to ask you this, Julie from North Ireland: Did you
> feel that any of the discussion in the thread which followed your
> inquiry was useful?


Of course I found it useful. I went to the links and I am reading through them.

I appreciate the advice given. I have taken it in and will use it to suit my needs.

Thanks.

Samartha Deva > wrote in message


> Well Julie, you are right. Maybe I should have been more considerate. I
> thought you were gone.


Shows you what thinking does....;-)



> Now, with your original post:
>
> > I like making breads (regular not sourdoughs. I am making starter now
> > for my first sourdough bread) but most of the time they are quite
> > heavy and I was wondering if leaving them to rise longer would make it
> > lighter.
>
> As I understand this, you are getting dense loafs with yeast for some
> reason and like it to be different with sourdough?

I was wondering what sourdough it supposed to be like when cooked.
>
> What recipe and procedure are you using when you make your bread to get
> this result?

I use a very basic white bread recipe. Water, Flour,Yeast, Salt,little
bit of sugar Water.


> When you make such a statement: "most of the time ... quite heavy", it's
> like: "I have a car, it starts but goes kind of slow and I am wondering
> if I use a different fuel brand, would it run better?". Ask a car
> mechanic this question, look at his face and figure what he thinks about
> you. Maybe he makes an association you better don't want to know...

When I say quite heavy ..I mean Heavy...How the weight of the loaf
feels in comparison to the size of the finished product.

Also does the oven type make a difference...I have a fan assisted
(convection ) oven and cannot turn off the fan....(Which is no good
for meringues :-( ).
So perhaps that has something to do with it. Yes or No?


> It may be a good idea to get the dough mechanics to work with baker's
> yeast and once this turns out all right, use sourdough.

Will do this while I am fiddling with a starter. I know I should
obtain a reliable one. I have asked for one and hope to get it soon.
BUT I would like to try out differing ways of making my own.


>
> Forget about the starter creation if it's Nancy Silverton's grape
> starter baloney, but the other videos could be informative:


Actually I am trying to make YOUR Starter as described on:

http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

Which was given in a link in one of the threads. I started it and am
changing it over from Rye to Strong Bread Flour. I have one kept Rye
and one I am changing over to see how it goes.

> Good luck,
>
> Samartha


Thanks....I will be making a try with normal yeasty bread to see if I
can get the result I want until my starter is ready.

Cheers
Julie

Julie wrote:

> > As I understand this, you are getting dense loafs with yeast for some
> > reason and like it to be different with sourdough?
>
> I was wondering what sourdough it supposed to be like when cooked.

What kind of sourdough bread are you wishing to make? There is a wide
variety of sourdough breads.

Normal breads have crumb - loft or density with elasticity, crust -
color - thickness density, moisture, shape, size and weight slashes...
and taste with sourness and smell.


> > What recipe and procedure are you using when you make your bread to get
> > this result?
>
> I use a very basic white bread recipe. Water, Flour,Yeast, Salt,little
> bit of sugar Water.

With this recipe, the bread should just turn out fine or be a total
failure, depending what amounts you use and how you treat your yeast -
for example, if you use boiling water, you are in trouble. Now, what is
the flour amount and ratio of flour to water? How much yeast, salt?

> When I say quite heavy ..I mean Heavy...How the weight of the loaf
> feels in comparison to the size of the finished product.

You mean high density - low volume with high weight, small holes in the
crumb, possibly very dense spots, darker with no holes at all? Something
like that, on top of the page (my proud first real "dud"):

http://samartha.net/images/SD/ffandfunnies.html

> Also does the oven type make a difference...I have a fan assisted
> (convection ) oven and cannot turn off the fan....(Which is no good
> for meringues :-( ).
> So perhaps that has something to do with it. Yes or No?

As long as the oven gets enough heat, it should work for basic bread -
so no.

> > It may be a good idea to get the dough mechanics to work with baker's
> > yeast and once this turns out all right, use sourdough.
>
> Will do this while I am fiddling with a starter. I know I should
> obtain a reliable one. I have asked for one and hope to get it soon.
> BUT I would like to try out differing ways of making my own.

Forget about starter reliability, they are, and so is the yeast (or do
you use a 5 year old package?), it's how you treat it.

> Actually I am trying to make YOUR Starter as described on:
>
> http://samartha.net/SD/MakeStarter01.html

It is not "mine" - it's an attempted documentation of a simple natural
process which I found incredibly misrepresented wherever I looked and
many advise against doing it for whichever reasons.

> Which was given in a link in one of the threads. I started it and am
> changing it over from Rye to Strong Bread Flour. I have one kept Rye
> and one I am changing over to see how it goes.

Is anything moving?

> Thanks....I will be making a try with normal yeasty bread to see if I
> can get the result I want until my starter is ready.

It would be interesting to find out what is going wrong with your bread
in the first place. If you don't get your breads to rise with baker's
yeast, the starter wouldn't help it either.


Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
>
> The first thing that I wanted to know Julie, is 'how do you decide how long
> to let the dough rise?'
> Janet


I usually have a recipe that I follow and depending on the what the
recipe says (It usally gives a time and says or until doubled.)

Cheers
Julie

Good for you, Julie! Working with sourdough, even a rye sour, certainly =
isn't rocket science. A couple (or more) of pompous, self-important =
people who frequent this forum would have you think otherwise. Sourdough =
is very forgiving and the only real danger in my long experience is to =
let it die. Ask your questions, as we all did when first getting =
started. As for the pompous, sarcastic asses, most readers have a filter =
which works very well. Just key on the name and you don't have to listen =
to their drivel any more. Happy baking!


> Asking questions is not taking the easy way out....that is how people
> have always
> LEARNED....by asking people who KNOW BETTER than themselves...
>=20
> So while I am honestly not offended...I suggest you take some time to
> think before making generalised and sweeping comments about people
> whom you know nothing about "People Like Julie " do not appreciate it
> very much.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks=20
>=20
> Cheers to you.
>=20
> Julie

Then he should get off the forum. Sharing experience is, in my opinion, =
the basic purpose of this forum. All, except for a few self-important =
asses, use it that way.

"Feuer" > wrote in message =
...
> Julie wrote:
> <stuff>
>=20
> I think Samartha's just a bit fed up with the questions new people =
tend
> to ask.
>=20
> David

"Julie" > wrote in message
om...
> "Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
> >
> > The first thing that I wanted to know Julie, is 'how do you decide how
long
> > to let the dough rise?'
> > Janet
>
>
> I usually have a recipe that I follow and depending on the what the
> recipe says (It usally gives a time and says or until doubled.)
>
> Cheers
> Julie

It is important that you not base your rising time on a certain time period
given in a recipe. Instead give the dough all the time it needs for the
final rise. If you were going strictly by a given time, it is quite
possible that rising longer will produce a lighter bread. Oven readiness is
something you must learn by appearance and feel.
Janet

"Pawnee" > wrote in message =
...

> ... As for the pompous, sarcastic asses, most readers have a filter =
which=20
> works very well.

Here at r.f.s., there is no sarcasm, just ascerbic wit. It goes with =
the territory.
Those who can't stand the low pH should stay out of our mixing bowl
BTW, sarcasm and pomposity are unrelated talents, and rarely coexistant.
(See if you can name a public figure who is both pompous and sarcastic.)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote:

> Oven readiness is
> something you must learn by appearance and feel.
> Janet

Yeah, and even after years of baking this can still be the thing that gets
me every once in a while.

-Mike

"Janet Bostwick" > wrote in message
>
> It is important that you not base your rising time on a certain time period
> given in a recipe. Instead give the dough all the time it needs for the
> final rise. If you were going strictly by a given time, it is quite
> possible that rising longer will produce a lighter bread. Oven readiness is
> something you must learn by appearance and feel.
> Janet


Thanks Janet,

I will certainly play around a bit and see how it goes. I was going to
make up some bread today but couldn't manage to get to it. But when I
do I will let every know how I managed.

Again for anyone who gave honest advice.

THANKS

Cheers
Julie