Hi all,

This weekend is about the fourth or fifth sourdough baking weekend, and I am
finally coming out with an acceptable all rye sourdough bread that I find
wonderful in taste, even though it is heavy (but not as heavy as the first
two bricks I made). Thanks for all the suggestions received from this group.

I have been looking at other all rye recipes, and notice that some require
kneading up to 30 minutes, and some do not mention kneading at all. The
basic recipes all seem very similar in ingredients, the only difference is
in kneading requirements.

My question: Is there enough gluten in rye that kneading it will make a
difference in how the bread rises? (I know there is much less in rye than in
wheat.)

My all rye dough seems very sticky, and I don't see how to effectively knead
it (I don't have a Kitchen-Aid...yet.). I tried kneading with a spoon in a
bowl on today's loaf, but the bread didn't seem different from my last
no-knead loaf.

How do you make your all-rye bread?

Regards,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> My question: Is there enough gluten in rye that kneading it will make =
a
difference in how the bread rises? (I know there is much less in rye =
than in
wheat.) <

There is essentially no gluten in rye dough. All-rye bread takes a much =

different process than does white sourdough bread. That is why we have
samartha.net.

All-rye bread is for when you have been baking for years and mastered
most all of the techniques and procedures, but still feel you need one
more challenge.

Admixing rye flour with white flour effectively lowers the gluten =
content
of the product flour. Whole grain flours have little sharp edged =
particles
in them that interfere mightily with gas retention.

You might be interested in trying Ms. Kirk's Rugbroed. There is a link
for that at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html
That is less of a challenge what you seem to be attempting.

The only other practical solution is to become a disciple to Samartha.
Even at that, I don't think he generally does all-rye.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

>You might be interested in trying Ms. Kirk's Rugbroed. There is a link
>for that at http://www.nyx.net/~dgreenw/sourdoughfaqs.html

Hi Dick,

I have tried that recipe, the one on the page you cited that calls for 10
minutes kneading. I like the bread I made using that recipe. It came out
very similar in taste and texture to a recipe I have that calls for no
kneading.

I was just wondering about the necessity of kneading an all rye dough, and
whether other people who bake an all-rye bread knead or not.

Thank you for your response,

Regards,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 18:36:42 GMT, "HeatherInSwampscott"
> wrote:

>I have been looking at other all rye recipes, and notice that some require
>kneading up to 30 minutes, and some do not mention kneading at all. The
>basic recipes all seem very similar in ingredients, the only difference is
>in kneading requirements.

Hi Heather,

Do they differ (significantly) in fermentation times?

Here's why I ask:

The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
not certain, that these are also proteins.)

In any case, it is my understanding that kneading, whether using wheat
or rye, is just one way to generate these "gluey" materials. They can
also be generated chemically (visit a Wonder Bread factory for more),
or by hydration. This last is interesting he

If the dough is made, mixed enough so that there are not dry flour
pockets, and put aside, the gluten or pentosans, will be created.

So, with all that, you may have recipes that "substitute" time
(hydration) for kneading (mechanical) development.

And finally, do check Samartha's site. This guy knows his rye.

Have fun,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> I have tried that recipe, the one on the page you cited that calls for =
10
minutes kneading.

OK, well try this then:



Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
(Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

> Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
> (Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of? My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

> Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

> Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
> (Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)


Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of? My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

> Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net


Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

> Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
> (Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of?

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust. And my crumb is more compact, looking
more like Samartha's pumpernickle, but not so dark and with more holes.
And my loaf is baked in a pan.

> Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Dick Adams wrote:

> Unfortunately, the web site referred to seems to have been taken down.
> (Does anyone know where to find Christiane's fine pictures?)

Neat site, thank you.
I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what you
were thinking of?

http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the
slight separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
1/4 inch, right at the top crust. And my crumb is more compact, looking
more like Samartha's pumpernickle, but not so dark and with more holes.
And my loaf is baked in a pan.

> Well, if all else fails, there is always http://samartha.net

Yes, of course, I am very familiar with Samartha's site. I am not ready
for the 24 hour pumperknickle yet. And I have tried his half whole wheat
half other whole grain with success. I am happy with my loaf of all-rye
bread it tastes just fabulous, much better than the half wheat half rye.

I was just wondering why some all rye recipes call for kneading, and
some don't. I think Kenneth's reply has the answer, I will go back and
compare my list of all-rye recipes.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Kenneth,

My understanding is that pentosans are polysaccharides (carbohydrates).

- Steve Brandt


"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
> of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
> rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
> not certain, that these are also proteins.)

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 23:12:34 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>Kenneth,
>
>My understanding is that pentosans are polysaccharides (carbohydrates).
>
>- Steve Brandt
>
>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> The "glue" in wheat breads is gluten. In rye, there is little if any
>> of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
>> rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
>> not certain, that these are also proteins.)
>

Hi Steve,

I never met a carbohydrate that I did not like, and so, I thank you
<g>

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> of that particular protein. The gas generated from the yeasts used in
> rye breads is held by chemicals called pentosans. (I believe, but am
> not certain, that these are also proteins.)

As Steve said, they're carbohydrates. I _think_ they're sugars, but
please don't quote me on that. Unlike gluten, they are in the flour
from the start. If the dough is mixed without enough sour and left
for too long the pentosans will break down, ruining the bread.
Therefore, all good leavened 100% rye bread is sourdough.

David

In regards to mixing rye -

When I did my pumpernickel in a KA, the dough hook just would not do the
mixing, same with any other higher hydration doughs. This was extremely
frustrating: everything ready to go and the damn thing would not mix!
Just the dough hook cutting circles into the dough with nothing moving.

Now, thinking back, I could have used/tried another implement. There is
something like a paddle consisting mostly out of holes (if you know what
I mean;-) which could have worked.

The major frustration with the KA for me was the limited capacity so I
got a Magic Mill.
For a while, I was using the KA for mixing smaller amounts because it's
easier to clean but lately it's unused.

If you are able to utilize the amount of dough (I can mix 2 x 1500 g
loafs easily in one going which would cause the KA to start smoking and
requiring servicing) and can afford it, it's definitely worth
considering. The mixing process is very much different from a KA which
cuts with it's dough hook through the dough. The MM is
pressing/stretching which gives a different dough/gluten structure IMO.

But this has been covered many times over here and in other newsgroups.


As for kneading the rye - I am still experimental on this, same with
fermentation times. It's hard to find info on that (for me). Sure it's
less than with wheat. It's also probably a taste issue - how much sour
or taste you want. Can be done either all in the starter or some in the
starter and some in the final dough, in theory. What's done practically
in bakeries - who is doing full rye breads would know and probably won't
tell. Also, I really distrust US sources in rye procedures.

When I did the baking tests, the amount of water going into the dough
was amazing in comparison to wheat.

In essence, one would have to do a baking test for every flour or berry
bag - or batches thereof if you get more than one bag. And - I found
(untested hunch) that the light rye flour (50 lb bag) I had changed it's
property when I had it for maybe over 6 month.

The stickiness when handling the dough you overcome with wet hands -
bowl of cold water nearby and just keep it wet and slimy.


Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:59:43 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>and just keep it wet and slimy.

Hi Samartha,

Hmmm... I assume you are still talking about the bread here <g>.

Your "cutting circles" description is exactly right. I have had that
problem and as you suggest, the "paddle" works well.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

You can feel comfortable being quoted. They are polysaccharides (poly =
many; saccharide = sugar). In other words, they are polymeric sugars.

- Steve Brandt

"Feuer" > wrote in message ...
> ... I _think_ they're sugars, but please don't quote me on that.

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> The major frustration with the KA for me was the limited capacity so I
> got a Magic Mill.

My major frustration with the KA was that I just could not get sufficient
gluten development using AP flour without long mix times and significant
mixer heating. With the Magic Mill, I've been able to significantly reduce
mix times (and overoxidation of the dough) and have been able to achieve far
superior gluten development, as evidenced by the nice grigne that now form
on my loaves.

- Steve Brandt

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> In regards to mixing rye -
>
> When I did my pumpernickel in a KA, the dough hook just would not do the
> mixing, same with any other higher hydration doughs. This was extremely
> frustrating: everything ready to go and the damn thing would not mix!
> Just the dough hook cutting circles into the dough with nothing moving.
>
> Samartha
>
I'm glad that I read this thread. So what did you do after the hook just
cut circles? How did you judge the correct amount of kneading by hand. I
had a new recipe run out of oomph on me the other night. I did the wet hand
kneading, got what I judged to be correct development and the rise in the
bowl went well. However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze possible
problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for others,
I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at analyzing
rye. Suggestions?
Janet

Kenneth wrote:
>
> On Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:59:43 -0700, Samartha Deva
> > wrote:
>
> >and just keep it wet and slimy.
>
> Hi Samartha,
>
> Hmmm... I assume you are still talking about the bread here <g>.

Sure just not on the blocked threads and not <void>

Just because one dork is <withheld>.

There would be much more to say - anyone can backchannel me, just not
feeding the trolls;-) The mechanics are very clear and ....

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Janet,

there may be some misunderstanding - it was pumpernickel dough!
Hydration 70 % with very coarse, partially cracked 100 % rye kernel
mixture. There is absolutely nothing keeping it together. Like you have
1/2 very large cup of oatmeal and put in milk so it's just good wet and
then stir with a chopstick. The stick moves right through the mass of
wet oats flakes.

There was absolutely no development, just the necessity to mix the
water, grain stuff, starter and salt well. When the dough hook drew it's
circles in the mass, my jaw fell open - what?

How I actually mixed it, I don't remember, but it was no big deal,
probably some stirring spoon.

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> I'm glad that I read this thread. So what did you do after the hook just
> cut circles? How did you judge the correct amount of kneading by hand. I
> had a new recipe run out of oomph on me the other night. I did the wet hand
> kneading, got what I judged to be correct development and the rise in the
> bowl went well.
> However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
> bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze possible
> problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for others,
> I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at analyzing
> rye. Suggestions?

If I would know more that mixture of grains you are talking about,
maybe?

If you are talking pure rye, it needs a certain amount of sourness to
defeat some enzymatic activity or it gets into brick territory.

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> > However, the formed loaves rose just enough not to be
> > bricks, but not what I was expecting. I've been trying to analyze
possible
> > problem areas. I'm using a preferment(sour). This recipe works for
others,
> > I just don't know where my weakness is and I'm not very good at
analyzing
> > rye. Suggestions?
>
> If I would know more that mixture of grains you are talking about,
> maybe?
>
> If you are talking pure rye, it needs a certain amount of sourness to
> defeat some enzymatic activity or it gets into brick territory.
>
> Samartha
>
> --
> remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
> SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams AP,
14 grams whole wheat, added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
whole wheat to make the dough. I think my hydration was wrong, probably
much dryer flour here in my location. But I think I addressed that(not
really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed. Maybe
I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams AP,
> 14 grams whole wheat,


And how long is that growing at ? temp?

The ratios of starter/dough flour look ok, but is it fermenting long
enough?

(just asking maybe dumb questions to make your reality fit into my model
of thinking)

> added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
> whole wheat to make the dough.

That's pretty good in rye %

> I think my hydration was wrong, probably
> much dryer flour here in my location.

How much was the hydration? I have done rye baking tests with
standardized flour humidity and I would like to be able to compare it to
that.

> But I think I addressed that(not
> really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
> kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
> after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed. Maybe
> I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.

Maybe they come in the process of what we are doing here.

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> > The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams
AP,
> > 14 grams whole wheat,
>
> 
> And how long is that growing at ? temp?
>
> The ratios of starter/dough flour look ok, but is it fermenting long
> enough?
>
> (just asking maybe dumb questions to make your reality fit into my model
> of thinking)
>
> > added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
> > whole wheat to make the dough.
>
> That's pretty good in rye %
>
> > I think my hydration was wrong, probably
> > much dryer flour here in my location.
>
> How much was the hydration? I have done rye baking tests with
> standardized flour humidity and I would like to be able to compare it to
> that.
>
> > But I think I addressed that(not
> > really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
> > kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
> > after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed.
Maybe
> > I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.
>
> Maybe they come in the process of what we are doing here.
>
> Samartha
>
whoops, sorry, forgot the water didn't I? 1100ml, all in the sour, 48
hours, room temp 70-75. very foamy, bubbly, knock your head back with the
vapors, starting to fall.
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> "Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Janet Bostwick wrote:
> >
> > > The sour is 1 tablespoon firm rye starter, 540 grams dark rye, 42 grams
> AP,
> > > 14 grams whole wheat,

20 g ~ ~ 60 % hydration, 12 g flour ./. 582 g flour = mult factor 48/ 48
hours = 1

hmh - that could have some influence - with my Detmold, which is in top
notch condition, I have factors 0.54 in 24 hours at over 80 F, so you
are fermenting the starter much less in one stage at lower temperature
for 48 hours. Look at my DM3 calculator at my web site for the factors
to which I am comparing it here.

And, by my measures, the DM3 starter coming out is not very sour (I have
not measured acidity, it's an impression). I think you are missing
acidity for rye.

I am not saying that your starter is not good or not "top notch" and I
don't know your starter at all. I am just putting this out as food for
thought and maybe vary it a little.

Doing it all on one stage is definitely not standard in growing starters
for rye. 3-Stage is the only reliable process to do rye breads without
yeast.

I have not checked your dough hydration, I think that's secondary. I
would go to the high 60's - 68, 69 to start and then vary.

Hope this helps,

Samartha


> >
> > 
> > And how long is that growing at ? temp?
> >
> > The ratios of starter/dough flour look ok, but is it fermenting long
> > enough?
> >
> > (just asking maybe dumb questions to make your reality fit into my model
> > of thinking)
> >
> > > added to 810 grams dark rye, 63 grams AP, 27 grams
> > > whole wheat to make the dough.
> >
> > That's pretty good in rye %
> >
> > > I think my hydration was wrong, probably
> > > much dryer flour here in my location.
> >
> > How much was the hydration? I have done rye baking tests with
> > standardized flour humidity and I would like to be able to compare it to
> > that.
> >
> > > But I think I addressed that(not
> > > really sure) when I wetted my hands several times during completion of
> > > kneading by hand. I just am not sure how much this dough should 'flow'
> > > after mix taking in account that water will continue to be absorbed.
> Maybe
> > > I over-handled it. I just need some ideas.
> >
> > Maybe they come in the process of what we are doing here.
> >
> > Samartha
> >
> whoops, sorry, forgot the water didn't I? 1100ml, all in the sour, 48
> hours, room temp 70-75. very foamy, bubbly, knock your head back with the
> vapors, starting to fall.
> Janet

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> I went to the root of that page, and found this link, was this what=20
> you were thinking of?

> http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm

You are resourceful. I had not seen that page. She initially posted =
some
photos of her own bread. But that information seems very useful.

> My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the slight=20
> separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about=20
> 1/4 inch, right at the top crust.

Seems you may be quite far along in you all-rye quest. When you
are ready, you might consider inspiring us with some digital photos.
(especially if you succeed to couple an exercise machine with a mill).

With regard to Ms. Roehler, she was approachably conversational=20
years back when she dropped briefly in at r.f.s. She would probably=20
respond with some enthusiasm if you were to direct some knotty=20
questions to her, as there seems to have developed very little interest=20
in all-rye among amateur bakers.

Message ID =3D
is as far as I got with all-rye, or rye + fortuitous schrot. It is =
pretty
easy to do, and I still do it every now and then. It is not, in any =
way,
pumpernickel, as Samartha has most vociferously pointed out, but=20
it reminds Mrs. Adams of some kind of "old-world" bread and goes
well with stinky little pickled fishes.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:
> "HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message ...

>
>>My rye is somewhat between Backwert 4 and 5, with the slight
>>separation at the top crust, except my separation happens about
>>1/4 inch, right at the top crust.
>
>
> Seems you may be quite far along in you all-rye quest. When you
> are ready, you might consider inspiring us with some digital photos.
> (especially if you succeed to couple an exercise machine with a mill).

I wanted to edit that last posting, but ran out of time. I should have
said the GAP between the crumb and crust of my bread resembles the GAP
of Backwert 4 and 5! (In an earlier email I mentioned the crumb
separating entirely from the crust, that is not happening anymore.) The
holes in my bread are more irregular than the photos on that page. My
crumb looks more like Samartha's 24 hour pumperknickle, just not as
dense. And my loaves are not free form (not sure of the correct term),
they are made in a bread pan.

I will photo my next batch, if I remember to bring my work camera home : -)
And I have not gone further than the idea of "exerciser-mill", but my
arms are shaping up nicely thank you!

> Message ID =
> is as far as I got with all-rye, or rye + fortuitous schrot. It is pretty
> easy to do, and I still do it every now and then.

A while ago I was looking for rye recipes and came across your "Vollkorn
without tears" variation,
that is on my list to try as well, thank you!
(took me a minute to figure out the message id thing:
(shrort URL to recipe: http://tinyurl.com/skzn )
(long url for Vollkorn without tears
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=Vo...t.net&rn um=1

The recipe I am using is very similar, but no molasses, and I have a rye
starter, and add onions sauteed in butter to the slurry. Yum!

Photos soon! And then I will try 100% whole wheat and see if I can't
make a tasty version I like as much as the rye.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> A while ago I was looking for rye recipes and came across your=20
> "Vollkorn without tears" variation, that is on my list to try as well, =

> thank you! (took me a minute to figure out the message id thing

I figured you could do figure it out, but I did not suspect that you=20
would do it for everyone. That post gets me in bad trouble with the=20
Pumpernickel Police. So now I am probably in for it again.

> (short URL to recipe: http://tinyurl.com/skzn )
> (long url for Vollkorn without tears
> =
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=3D...l=3Den&lr=3D&=
ie=3DUTF-8&oe=3DUTF-8&selm=3D6jpjbb%248i0%40bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net& rnu=
m=3D1

Didja know that once you have the message-ID (that is, the news=20
ID without the <news:> you can prefix it with
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D
and give it directly you your browser, or, in most cases, click it
up from your newsreader..

For instance, here is your message referenced above, at the Google
archive (assuming it has reached there already, otherwise try again =
later):
=
link.net

That trick was taught at r.f.s. by Darrell.

A few people know that a message can be brought back by clicking on its
news ID (which makes full requoting an absurdity suitable only for =
novices),=20
but almost no one remembers/knows Darrell's trick.

Of course there is the problem that it is quite impossible to prevent=20
newsreaders from breaking long url references, and once broken, they
are impossible to repair. So maybe the tiny thing is the best answer.

: )

Happy ryemucking.

---
DickA

Dick Adams wrote:

> Didja know that once you have the message-ID (that is, the news
> ID without the <news:> you can prefix it with
> http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=
> and give it directly you your browser, or, in most cases, click it
> up from your newsreader..

Good tip, thanks!

> : )
>
> Happy ryemucking.

That is a good name for it, "ryemucking". I like that!

Thank you,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
>
> And, by my measures, the DM3 starter coming out is not very sour (I have
> not measured acidity, it's an impression). I think you are missing
> acidity for rye.
>
> I am not saying that your starter is not good or not "top notch" and I
> don't know your starter at all. I am just putting this out as food for
> thought and maybe vary it a little.
>
> Doing it all on one stage is definitely not standard in growing starters
> for rye. 3-Stage is the only reliable process to do rye breads without
> yeast.
>
> I have not checked your dough hydration, I think that's secondary. I
> would go to the high 60's - 68, 69 to start and then vary.
>
> Hope this helps,
>
> Samartha
>
O.k. thanks, you've given me some ideas to work on.
Janet

I've been baking 100% Rye Sourdough for about 12 years. I try to minimize
cleanup effort. I bake the dough in a loaf pan. I mix the dough in a flat
17 cup Tupperware bowl (discontinued item), and I wear green "plastic/rubber"
food prep gloves to handle the dough. I use a large melamine spoon to mix the
dough, with help from a small (2x2") hard plastic scraper.

Towards the end of the mixing, I rub off the small amount of rye dough stuck to
the gloves, and incorporate it back into the dough.

I have discovered two similar methods, beginner and advanced. Once one gets
the feel for working with such a soft dough using the beginner method, then
one is ready for advanced method.

The beginner method disturbs the dough after the primary fermentation, while
the advanced method distrubs the dough much less. With 100% rye, there is
actually not much difference between the methods, but with 24% rye and 76%
unbleached wheat flour, the difference is considerable (try it, you will see
what I mean, I am too lazy to explain it any further).

I will now post the recipe, so that there is a complete context in which to
understand what I am doing.

1st leaven sponge (1pt wide mouth mason jar)
-----------------
34g - storage leaven (from refrigerator)
38g - water
29g - flour (100% SG Org Rye)
----
101g - ferment for 7 hours, covered (~~ 78-deg F), with SDI SF starter it
rises to 4x volume

2nd leaven sponge (17c mixing bowl)
-----------------
101g - 1st leaven sponge, ripe
126g - water
97g - flour (Rye)
----
324g - to be divided
-19g - for storage leaven, details omitted (again, too lazy)
----
305g - ferment 11 hours, covered (overnight)

final dough (17c mixing bowl - the same)
-----------
305g - 2nd leaven sponge, ripe
182g - water
420g - flour (Rye)
1.125% - salt (1 + 1/4 + 1/8 tsp Lima sea salt)
----
907g = 354g water + 553g flour (64% hydration)

Now for the method.

o push ripe leaven aside with spoon

o add all water to space freed up by prior step

o add all salt, wait 30 sec for salt to hydrate

o add a small amount of flour to the salt water, mix with spoon

o repeat prior step until salt water/flour is pancake batter consistency

o mix leaven and buffered salt mixture together until homogeneous

For the beginner method, reserve 55g of the total flour (10%).
For the advanced method, reserve 1Tbs of the total flour.

o continue to add a quantity of flour to the dough mixture, and mix until
all of the newly added flour is fully hydrated

o repeat prior step until all of the flour (except for the reserved quantity)
has been mixed into the dough. at a certain point, the dough will begin to
come together into a rough ball, and it will be not so easy to work. use
the scraper to move the wetter dough from the spoon back into the main
dough mass. use the scraper to move any drier peices of dough stuck to the
bowl back into the dough mass. for a man, i am not so strong, so if i can
mix the dough ball so that it is fully hydrated, then so can you. note
that my hands are still clean, and i haven't put on the gloves yet.

Ferment the dough, covered, for 1 1/2 hours at 78-deg F. It will expand
to 1 1/2 to 2 times in volume.

Now, put on the gloves. The goal is to free the dough mass from the bowl,
and to lightly coat it with flour, so that it can be manipulated with a
minimum of amount of dough sticking to the gloves.

Use the 2x2" scraper and sprinkle a little of the flour over the top and
exposed sides of the dough mass, then free a portion of the dough from the
bottom of the bowl, sprinkle a little flour on the just uncovered and freed
area of the bottom of the bowl, continue around until the dough mass has
been coated with flour and is not stuck to the bowl anymore.

The dough will be very soft, it needs to be handled very gently, otherwise,
the coating of flour will be breached, and then you will have a big sticky
mess on your hands.

Now the goal is to incorporate all of the (reserved) flour into the dough
mass, so that it is completely mixed in and fully hydrated. Actually, a
very fine coating of flour will remain on the dough, just enough so that
the dough can be shaped into its final (loaf for pan, round for free form)
shape.

With the beginner method, one has a lot of flour to incorporate into the
dough, so folding and gentle compression will be used to do this. One will
slowly develop a feel for the dough, as this "very gentle kneading" action
takes place. Be gentle and patient, and slowly, the dough will begin to firm
up, and will become much easier to handle.

With the advanced method, one has just a very small amount of flour to work
into the dough, fortunately, the dough is less hydrated to begin with, so
that with sufficient practice of the beginner method, one is able to manage.

Note that at the end of the beginner method, one is actually entering into
the advanced method, but with an "on the job training" lesson being learned
at a gradual pace.

It is really easy to breach the flour coating when transferring the formed
dough loaf into its pan for final proofing.

I use a pan that is about twice the volume of the dough mass, so that it
is easy to tell when to light the oven and commence baking.

Now for the remainder of the recipe,

o proof the loaf until it reaches the top of the pan (~~ 50 minutes)

o preheat oven at 350-deg F, for 35 minutes

o slash dough (determine experimentally - where it cracks after baking)

o spray top of loaf with a fine mist (optional)

o bake at 350-deg F for 45 minutes

o done, interior temp should be about 200-deg F

o remove loaf from pan, let cool on a wire rack for at least 5 hours

I would recommend at least another 18 hours of rest before attempting to
slice and consume this bread.

Actually, I prefer a soft crust, so after the initial 5 hour cool down,
I put the loaf in a plastic bag for the remaining 18 hours.

Due to the porosity of the rye dough, the loaf will have shrunk a bit from
its fully proofed size before baking.

I apologize for the formatting of this post, I am using an unfamiliar editor,
I will switch back to my usual editor in the future.

Enjoy,
--
Jeff Sheinberg -- jeff (at) bsrd (dot) net

Jeff provided a very detailed rye recipe including the method for incorporating
the last bit of flour...

<< The dough will be very soft, it needs to be handled very gently, otherwise,
the coating of flour will be breached, and then you will have a big sticky
mess on your hands. >>

Ed responds:
Jeff, I've copied the recipe and started the first innoculation. One thing
that is confusing is how one incorporates the last 10 percent flour or last 1
Tbsp of flour as quoted above.
I visualize kneading and folding the dough to incorporate the last bit of flour
which would obviously burst this floured bubble you describe. What am I
missing?


Ed

Ed Bechtel > wrote:
> Ed responds: Jeff, I've copied the recipe and started the
> first innoculation. One thing that is confusing is how one
> incorporates the last 10 percent flour or last 1 Tbsp of flour
> as quoted above. I visualize kneading and folding the dough to
> incorporate the last bit of flour which would obviously burst
> this floured bubble you describe. What am I missing?

The dough mass is not a "floured bubble", it is an expanded, very
soft dough mass.

Usually, working with whole rye flour is a real shock to someone
that is used to working only with white flour.

Now I will try to answer your question. By the time one gets to
the remaining 1 Tbsp of flour, the dough mass will have developed
enough cohesiveness so that it can be easily manipulated (gently
folded and pressed) without sticking.

I suggest that you begin with the "beginner" method, and when you
become confortable with it, then you are ready for the "advanced"
method.

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

"Jeff Sheinberg" > wrote in message=20
...

> ... I suggest that you begin with the "beginner" method, and when you
> become confortable with it, then you are ready for the "advanced"=20
> method.

OK, Jeff, I went back and read your post
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm....supernews.com

Clearly you are walking the walk, but you seem not to be talking the
talk. For instance, you have not said anything about:

Anfrishsauer
Anstellgut
Grundsauer
Sauerteig
Vollsauer
usw...

Nor have you mentioned:

Detmold 3-stage

How can one expect to become advanced without familiarity with the
advanced concepts?

(You do not even state pH values.)

You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe that?

---
DickA
Perennial beginner
Historic Noobie

Dick Adams > wrote:

> You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe
> that?

I was referring to "all-rye", using the supplied recipe. I did
not mention "pumpernickel" at all.

--
Jeff Sheinberg
for email addr: remove "l1." and change ".invalid" to ".net"

"Jeff Sheinberg" > wrote in message =
...
> Dick Adams > wrote:

> >You seem to be saying that all-rye is easy. Who could believe
> > that?

> I was referring to "all-rye", using the supplied recipe. I did
> not mention "pumpernickel" at all.

Neither did I. Seems to me the pumpernickel may be easiest=20
because it is made in a pan -- it just takes a long time to cook,=20
as I understand it. (Maybe a crock pot would be good.)

All-rye boules are tough because there is not enough gluten in
rye dough to hold them together while they rise (if they in fact do
rise).

So most of the fuss and bother with all-rye loaves is to prevent the
enzymatic breakdown of the starches which must be depended
upon to hold gas and retain the loaf shape. That is done by being
very careful to keep the pH low (> ~ 4.5) in the several=20
preferments and in the dough.

Pan rye loaves are much easier. Even I can do them, after a
fashion, using the previously-mentioned very simple process. =20
It seems to me that you could do your all-rye more easily=20
since you are using pans also. I do not know what the purpose
of kneading all-rye dough might be, since there is no gluten to
develop.

May your kitchen faeries not bog down in rye glop.

---
DickA
=20

Dick,

Did you perhaps mean pH < ~4.5? A pH > ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
and alkaline ranges.

- Steve Brandt

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

.... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low (> ~ 4.5) in the
several
preferments and in the dough.

"Steve B" > wrote in message =
news:PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53...

> Did you perhaps mean pH < ~4.5?

Right! A low pH is needed to inhibit amylases.

'Scuse my typo. Thanks for your attention.

On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 02:33:19 GMT, "Steve B" >
wrote:

>Did you perhaps mean pH < ~4.5? A pH > ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
>and alkaline ranges.

Although it has been over 40 years since my last chemistry class, I
thought that a pH of 7 was considered neutral and anything above 7 was
considered alkaline. A pH of 4.5 would therefore be decidedly acidic.

Something about 10^-14 comes to mind in the mass action expression

[H] [OH] ~ 10^-14

which means that neutral water has a concentration of hydrogen ions
of 10^-7 moles per liter - that is, a pH of 7.

Am I wrong on this - it has been a very long time?

"Steve B" > wrote in message news:<PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53>...
> Dick,
>
> Did you perhaps mean pH < ~4.5? A pH > ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
> and alkaline ranges.
>
> - Steve Brandt
>
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> ... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low (> ~ 4.5) in the
> several
> preferments and in the dough.

A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5? Does a negative pH value exist like
negative temperrature reading.I can not rememberr from my general
chemistry class several decades ago. that if its possible for the
hydrogen ion concentration to have negative values?

How can that be feasible a pH range from 1 to 14.From what I remember,
The lower values is in the acidiic side(units 1 to 6) while the pH
readings starting from above 7 is going to the alkaline side. The
middle value 7 means neutral.
Roy

Roy Basan wrote:
>
> "Steve B" > wrote in message news:<PjZpb.79176$275.223106@attbi_s53>...
> > Dick,
> >
> > Did you perhaps mean pH < ~4.5? A pH > ~4.5 can bring you into the neutral
> > and alkaline ranges.
> >
> > - Steve Brandt
> >
> > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > ... That is done by being very careful to keep the pH low (> ~ 4.5) in the
> > several
> > preferments and in the dough.
>
> A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5?


Dick and Steve used the tilde character (meaning 'approximately'), not the minus. Perhaps the font on your news reader does not show the difference well. I'd recommend using one of the courier fonts for reading newsgroups.
--


If you try to 'reply' to me without fixing the dot, your reply
will go into a 'special' mailbox reserved for spam. See below.


--
Carl West http://carl.west.home.comcast.net

>>>>>>>> change the 'DOT' to '.' to email me <<<<<<<<<<<<

On 5 Nov 2003 05:52:44 -0800, (Roy Basan) wrote:

>A pH or minus 4.5 or -4.5? Does a negative pH value exist like
>negative temperrature reading.I can not rememberr from my general
>chemistry class several decades ago. that if its possible for the
>hydrogen ion concentration to have negative values?

The hydrogen ion concentration [H] is an exponential in the negative
pH (aka "potential of hydrogen). That is,

[H] = 10^pH.

That concentration is in moles per liter.

>How can that be feasible a pH range from 1 to 14.From what I remember,
>The lower values is in the acidiic side(units 1 to 6) while the pH
>readings starting from above 7 is going to the alkaline side. The
>middle value 7 means neutral.

The mass action expression for neutral water is

[H] [OH] = 10^-14

and since the hydrogen ion concentration is equal to the hydroxyl ion
concentration, each is equal to 10^-7. That's where the pH of 7 comes
in.

If the solution is acidic, that means [H] > [OH] and [H] > 10^-7. For
example in a very acidic solution [H] could be 10^-2, which is
considerably greater than 10^-7. That would give you a pH of 2.



Bob

--

"America Online said it scanned 40 million e-mail attachments
on Wednesday - about four times the average daily volume - and
found more than 23 million copies of the Sobig.F virus."

Consider yourself fortunate if your email address is not
in someone's address book on AOL. Consider yourself even
more fortunate if you do not know anyone who uses AOL.