I have never been able to figure out if I have enough flour during the
kneading process. I use a dough hook on a mixer but don't mind kneading by
hand. Sometimes I let the mixer go until it cleans the side of the bowl,
then knead by hand, adding flour as needed.

What I don't understand is most recipes say add flour until it's sticky but
doesn't stick to your hands. I get it that far but, if I keep going, it
seems to get more moist until it does stick to my hands. I'm afraid to keep
adding flour and making the loaf too dry.

I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone testing
dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is elastic
but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or not
enough kneading?

"drhowarddrfinedrhoward" > wrote in =
message m...

> [ ... ]

> I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
> excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone =
testing
> dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is =
elastic
> but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or =
not
> enough kneading?

Excessive kneading is likely to mess up the gluten, especially with =
sourdough.
Possibly you are kneading too much. Try doing the whole kneading by
hand. Only people with pure souls have success with the "window-pane
test."

"drhowarddrfinedrhoward" > wrote in =
message m...

> [ ... ]

> I started a new starter using foam from the first batch but don't feel =
like
> beginning at the beginning again if I don't have to.

Good. Get a starter that works, like Carl's, for instance.

Are you Dr. Howard or Dr. Fine, or Dr. Howard, Jr., perhaps? There
exists some ambiguity in your ID. Anyway, "Dr. Bob" will no doubt=20
rise to your occasion, at least to the extent of startermuckery.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com =20

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:34:51 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Anyway, "Dr. Bob" will no doubt
>rise to your occasion, at least to the extent of startermuckery.

No, I will leave that to the experts.

My comments are as follows:

1. Kneading: According to the bakers at King Arthur Flour, you should
do only two kneadings, the first for about 30 seconds - just enough to
mix the ingredients - and then let the dough rest for 20 minutes
(autolyse phase), then knead in a bread machine for 7 minutes. That's
it - no more kneading or, as you point out, you will "tear" the
gluten.

NB: To find this article I have to give you directions because KA
changes the URL to their web pages periodically. Start at
<www.kingarthurflour.com>. Click on "Online Classes" on the left
NavBar. Then click on "Breads from the hearth". Then click on
"Baguettes". Scroll down to the sections entitled "Mixing the dough"
and "Kneading the dough".

2. Testing: I have found that the drinking glass test works reasonably
well in determining the limit of slackness. Start from the
over-hydrated side and add small amounts of flour until a drinking
glass punched into the dough comes out with no dough sticking to it.

That would be about 70-80% hydration depending on how you correct for
humidity and other errors.

I find a dough made from 4 cups flour, 1 1/2 cups water and 1 tsp salt
is slack enough for sourdough yet firm enough to hold its shape for
the final rise. I include the flour and water from the starter in the
above amounts.

HTH

I got frustrated one time trying to think up a username that wasn't already
in use. It's from the 3 Stooges film where they're in a hospital posing as
doctors. Moe and Curly are brothers, hence the same last name. The
hospital intercom pages them that way. It's a fairly well known skit.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:06:57 GMT, "drhowarddrfinedrhoward"
> wrote:

>I have never been able to figure out if I have enough flour during the
>kneading process. I use a dough hook on a mixer but don't mind kneading by
>hand. Sometimes I let the mixer go until it cleans the side of the bowl,
>then knead by hand, adding flour as needed.
>
>What I don't understand is most recipes say add flour until it's sticky but
>doesn't stick to your hands. I get it that far but, if I keep going, it
>seems to get more moist until it does stick to my hands. I'm afraid to keep
>adding flour and making the loaf too dry.
>
>I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
>excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone testing
>dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is elastic
>but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or not
>enough kneading?
>

Howdy,

(I saw your other post about starter making, but you are in very good
hands with Samartha...)

I suspect that you may be overly concerned about the amount of flour,
and also the issue of kneading generally.

Most books about bread that I have seen seem to focus on ease rather
than on making the most flavorful bread. That, in my opinion, is the
reason for authors focus on such things as "adding flour until the
dough cleans the sides of the bowl." In my experience, such advice
leads to a clay-like dough texture with a finer crumb, and less taste.

Also related to this is the following idea:

There are three ways to increase the gluten (the glue like protein in
wheat doughs that hold them together and trap gas allowing the loaves
to rise) as bread is being made:

It can be done chemically. Just read a few packages of super market
bread and you will understand.

It can be done mechanically, that is, by kneading.

And, it can be done by hydration alone. If the dry ingredients are
simply mixed with wet ingredients sufficiently to eliminate pockets of
dry flour, the gluten will form on its own.

For rapidly risen doughs that use commercial yeast, gluten formation
by hydration alone is not likely to succeed. That is because it takes
more time than the rapidly growing yeast will allow.

For sourdoughs however, gluten formation by hydration works extremely
well. The slower process allows for the formation of the gluten if the
ingredients are simply mixed rather than kneaded.

All that said, bread making is rather like wine making:

It is easy to add yeasts to grape juice that will rapidly ferment the
stuff. That produces grape juice with less sugar and with alcohol. Few
would call it real wine.

Rapidly produced bread is much the same. It looks like bread, and
sometimes feels like bread. It rarely tastes like bread.

I hope that some of this is of interest to you.

Have fun with your baking, and keep posting...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> Rapidly produced bread is much the same. It looks like bread, and
> sometimes feels like bread. It rarely tastes like bread.

I agree. I found this out yesterday; I made my first whole wheat yeasted
bread recipe with no sourdough. I wanted a comparison with the sourdough
breads I have been making. It (the yeasted bread) tasted almost like
sawdust, with about that texture.

On the other hand, the whole wheat sourdough bread I have made is
moister with much more flavor, and is definitely more pleasurable to
consume.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:26:41 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>On the other hand, the whole wheat sourdough bread I have made is
>moister with much more flavor, and is definitely more pleasurable to
>consume.

Hi Heather,

I made commercially yeasted breads for perhaps 40 years. It seems that
whenever I slowed them down (cold liquids, flour that had been in the
freezer, dough into the fridge because I had a meeting to attend etc.)
they were better in every way.

As you may know, I am a SD devotee, but much of that is my interest in
tradition (I also have calfskin heads on my turn of the century banjos
<g>). I often wonder if the delicious results are not due mostly to
the s-l-o-w process...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
It seems that
> whenever I slowed them down (cold liquids, flour that had been in the
> freezer, dough into the fridge because I had a meeting to attend etc.)
> they were better in every way.
<snip>
> I often wonder if the delicious results are not due mostly to
> the s-l-o-w process...

I wouldn't be surprised. But the contrast between the common yeasted
bread recipe (taking less than one day to make) and the sourdoughs with
an overnight starter is stunning.

Since I am just getting going with sourdough, and getting good results,
for now I will stick with them. When I get bored perhaps I will fool
around with retarding yeasted doughs, but it may be awhile before that
happens.

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:17:02 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Since I am just getting going with sourdough, and getting good results,
>for now I will stick with them.

Hi again,

I was not trying to suggest that you move in the yeast direction...

Virtually everything I do now-a-days is SD and I get better results
than in my former baker's life.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> I was not trying to suggest that you move in the yeast direction...

Nope, I know, I was just being chatty : -)

I am moving more towards "slow food" in more categories than just bread;
I have been playing with slow fermenting sauerkraut, kimchee, natural
sodas, cheeses and kefir; I love a roast beef that is cooked a long time
at low temperatures.

I came to sourdough from an interest in ferments. Also I remember
reading somewhere that wheat (flour and berries) is more easily
digestable in such things as pancakes and warm cereals if it is soaked
overnight first. If I recall it has something to do with the
indigestibility of phytates. But don't quote me, as I don't have a
resource handy. I imagine the beasties in sourdough merely speed the
process (relatively speaking) of breaking down phytates.

Send your S L O W recipes to me! : -)

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:07:57 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>I have been playing with slow fermenting ... kimchee,

So! I am not alone. I posted a thread on this subject earlier.

I make up two quarts a week and eat it all myself. No one else likes
it. I just finished putting up 3 quarts this time because I want some
in reserve.

If I may say so, my kimchi is better than the product you find in the
Korean stores, not because I am an expert but because I control the
ingredients. Most people are turned off because they do not like that
excessively hot pepper you find in most kimchi. I use a much milder
variety (red pepper flakes vs hot pepper flakes) and it makes the
product less fiery.

I also use sliced Korean radish along with the cabbage (2.5 lb
cabbage, 1.5 lb radish), which I salt for 3 hours. I use an abundance
of minced garlic and ginger plus a couple TBS sugar and several
squirts of fish sauce (anchovies). Add 1 bunch of green onions and
that is my recipe for perfect kimchi. I give it a 24 hour room
temperature fermen, and then out it into the refrigerator for the rest
of the week.

>I love a roast beef that is cooked a long time
>at low temperatures.

That's called Texas BBQ.

>Send your S L O W recipes to me! : -)

How about a 16 hour brisket?

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:07:57 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>I love a roast beef that is cooked a long time at low temperatures.

>Send your S L O W recipes to me! : -)

I recommend Robb Walsh's "Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook: Recipes
and Recollections from the Pit Bosses". It is the book of the
experts.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books

I rate this in the same class as Ed Wood's "Classic Sourdoughs".
Everything the home BBQer would ever want to know is in this book.

I know Robb here in Houston and he is every bit the expert on Texas
BBQ that his reputation proclaims. He has published several books on
the subject and serves as one of the judges at the Houston Livestock
Show and Rodeo (http://www.hlsr.com/) held in Houston every spring.

The litmus test of a Texas BBQ expert is the ability to cook a brisket
to perfection. I can tell you that it is every bit as challenging as
making great sourdough. It too is plagued by misnomers which is what
makes it so difficult to master. But one you catch on - from years of
practice - you will be among the very few who can do it correctly.

And then there is the New Mount Zion Missionary Baptist Church recipe
for pork ribs - which are world acclaimed. Once you have cooked them
that way, you will never cook ribs any other way.

===

Amazon.com:

From Publishers Weekly
Not every cookbook would include a recipe that begins, Dig a pit
3-feet-deep, 4-feet-wide, and 40-feet-long. But this is Texas and,
given 300 pounds of brisket, there is no more invigorating an
experience than this kind of open pit barbecuing as championed by
Walsh in his collection of barbecue memoirs, trivia and history. A
newspaperman at heart, Walsh interviews the top pit bosses across the
state and shares their secrets: Harley Goerlitz instructs beginners on
a simple Pork Shoulder while Bubba Hodges offers Egypt Brisket with a
mop sauce of vinegar, ranch dressing and Lone Star beer. For the
politically astute, there are Barbecue Sauce offerings from both Lady
Bird Johnson and Barbara Bush, not to mention Senator Lloyd Bentsen
Highway Rice Salad, a democratic blend of Texmati rice, chopped
vegetables, yogurt, pecans and cilantro. Most interesting is the
exploration of cultural influences across the prairie, including a
surprising look at the German and Czech political radicals who landed
in Texas in the mid-1800s, and the smoked meats they brought with
them. For those who prefer motoring to grilling, Walsh includes a fine
list of barbecue joints all along the Barbecue Belt, as well as
different meat markets and a calendar of some of the major cook-offs
held throughout the state.

===

Book Description
Welcome to Texas barbecue. They love to make it. They love to eat it.
And they love to argue about it - igniting as many feuds as fires from
Houston to El Paso. Legends of Texas Barbecue Cookbook delivers both a
practical cookbook and a guided tour of Texas barbecue lore, giving
readers straightforward advice right from the pit masters themselves.
Their time-honored tips, along with 85 closely guarded recipes, reveal
a lip-smacking feast of smoked meats, savory side dishes, and an
awesome array of mops, sauces, and rubs. Their opinions are outspoken,
their stories outlandish and hilarious. Fascinating archival
photography looks back over more than 100 years of barbecue history,
from the first turn of the century squirrel roasts to candid shots of
Lyndon Johnson chowing down on a plate of ribs. A list of the best
barbecue joints and a month-by-month rundown of the most influential
statewide cook-offs round out this glorious celebration of barbecue
found deep in the heart of Texas.

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:07:57 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>I have been playing with slow fermenting ... kimchee.

The book I recommend is one I bought at a Korean bookstore in Houston:

Kimchi: A Natural Health Food
by Florence C. Lee, Helen C. Lee

The pictures alone are worth the price of the book.

Houston is much like Europe in that it is a collection of ethnic
enclaves pocketing a vast sprawling landscape. I live in an area near
a fairly sizeable Korean enclave, There are as many Korean restaurants
and grocery stores as there are Anglo and Hispanic ones.

=====

Amazon.com:

Reader Reviews
If you would like some authentic Korean recipes for Kimchi, this is a
great book! It shows exactly how to make a lot of different kinds, and
the pictures are great. I've seen some recipes elsewhere for "basic"
kimchi, but there are many, many different kinds and very few are
written anywhere.

The book DOES assume you have some basic kimchi knowledge -- like how
to ferment vegetables. There are not many books that really cover that
aspect of things. And getting some of the ingredients -- like pickled
baby fish -- requires going to a Korean grocery, perhaps with a
bilingual friend.

That said, it's worth the effort! It is very difficult to get "real"
kimchi recipes unless you know someone who makes it, and this is an
invaluable guide. And, for us Westerners, making your own means you
can vary the amount of pepper and garlic and sourness to suite your
particular taste. Kimchi really does have more bio-available nutrients
than raw or cooked vegetables, and does good things to your blood
sugar and intestinal bacteria.

Plus, it makes your meals taste better!

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 00:07:57 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> > wrote:
>
SNIP
.. Kimchi really does have more bio-available nutrients
> than raw or cooked vegetables, and does good things to your blood
> sugar and intestinal bacteria.
>
> Plus, it makes your meals taste better!
>
>

But don't you fart all the time eating it this often?

Graham

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 05:22:32 GMT, "Graham" > wrote:

>. Kimchi really does have more bio-available nutrients
>> than raw or cooked vegetables, and does good things to your blood
>> sugar and intestinal bacteria.

>> Plus, it makes your meals taste better!

>But don't you fart all the time eating it this often?

Amazingly, no.

The cabbage is fermented, so that must remove the farter-starters. The
kimchi I make bubbles away for the first few days so it must be
getting rid of all the farts in the jar.

I also make Korean black beans (in a crock pot) and they are somewhat
fermented. Again, no flatulance. In fact, I have eaten a lot of
Oriental food over the past several decades - food that either I
prepared, friends prepared, or we ate at authentic restaurants - and
not once did any of it induce gas.

I seriously doubt that a food that causes social embarrasment could
qualify as the national cuisine. Koreans eat kimchi for breakfast,
lunch, supper, in-between-meal snacks, while they are making love,
etc.

I am told that you are not an authentic Korean unless both your
parents had a mouthful of kimchi when sperm met egg.

Bob wrote:

> The book I recommend is one I bought at a Korean bookstore in Houston:
>
> Kimchi: A Natural Health Food
> by Florence C. Lee, Helen C. Lee

Hi Bob;

Thank you for the references, I actually have the Kimchi book you
mention above. I haven't made more than 2 batches, as I like my
saurkraut better and I only have one crock. But in a few weeks I think I
will try again.

Re the barbeque; I would love to try open pit cooking but I have yet to
own my own yard! Right now I am in a small apartment, no yard, and no
porch to even put a grill on : -)

Best,

Heather
_amaryllysATyahooDOTcom

"Bob" > wrote in message =
about kimchee:

> several squirts of fish sauce (anchovies). Add 1 bunch of green=20
> onions and that is my recipe for perfect kimchi. I give it a 24 hour=20
> room temperature fermen, and then out it into the refrigerator for=20
> the rest of the week.

24 hours is much too short. Could be consumed after 4 weeks, but=20
4 months is better. Being buried in some kind of a compost pile is
thought by some to have a beneficial effect.

> I make up two quarts a week and eat it all myself. No one else likes
> it.

That figures. It is not done yet. Well, for the mee-gooks, the fish =
sauce
could well be optional, added to taste. For the authentic kimchee =
people,
fishheads may be preferable.

> I use a much milder variety (red pepper flakes vs hot pepper flakes)=20
> and it makes the product less fiery.

Sometimes it does not seem like you are a Texan at all!

> I am an expert but because I control the ingredients.

Yeah, Bob, you are a real friggin' expert, and you are in control.

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message =
...

> ... I haven't made more than 2 batches, as I like my saurkraut better=20
> and I only have one crock. But in a few weeks I think I will try again =
....

A five-gallon food pail is good for 10 lbs. of cabbage etc. Two-gallon
one for small batches. Restaurants, especially Chinese and Pizzerias=20
throw out lots of 'em. The lids are needed -- they seal hermetically.
Good to get a wine-bubbler and stick it tightly through a hole cut in
the lid.

Kimchee is conditionally on-topic here because it is good on baloney
sandwiches made with sourdough bread and because it is based on
a lactobacterial fermentation. Email me if more details are desired.
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3D%lYk9.69291$jG2.3758722@bgtnsc05-n=
ews.ops.worldnet.att.net

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

=20

Dick Adams wrote:

> A five-gallon food pail is good for 10 lbs. of cabbage etc. Two-gallon
> one for small batches. Restaurants, especially Chinese and Pizzerias
> throw out lots of 'em.

Yep, I used to work in restaurants, a used 5 gal. pickle bucket is
holding my rye berries (it still smells faintly of pickles, even after a
good washing and a month or so storage of rye). For anybody out there
looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to re-use
the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )

My crock holds about 10-15 lbs cabbage; I don't need another bucket of
kimchee going at the same time because I would never eat my way through
all of it! My refrigerator only holds so much; I would give it away but
not many folks like sauerkraut or kimchee! : -) The sourdough bread is
much more popular.

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 12:42:26 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Thank you for the references, I actually have the Kimchi book you
>mention above. I haven't made more than 2 batches, as I like my
>saurkraut better and I only have one crock. But in a few weeks I think I
>will try again.

What book do you recommend for pickling cabbage and other vegetables?
I am using a library copy of "The Joy of Pickling", but I suspect
there are others I should look at.

>Re the barbeque; I would love to try open pit cooking but I have yet to
>own my own yard! Right now I am in a small apartment, no yard, and no
>porch to even put a grill on : -)

I recommend that apartment dwellers take a look at the Old Smokey
Electric Smoker

http://www.oldsmokey.com/0220ES.html

You can use it near the building or on a patio because there is no
open flame.

But more importantly it makes a great slow cooker. The moisture from
the food is trapped inside so it's cooked in a moist atmosphere - you
do not put water in the drip pan because it catches juices from the
meat.

It's the unit I use to cook brisket. I also use it for chicken and for
smoking salmon. I used to cook ribs with it, but ribs do not cook well
in a high-moisture environment, so I use a conventional pit.

Old Smokey is in Houston so I was able to buy my unit rebuilt for $40.
The major outdoors retailers should carry it for around $70 new. I
also bought about every variety of wood chips available so I could
choose the flavor I wanted. I got them from a supplier in Houston who
got them from Chigger Creek.

http://www.chiggercreekproducts.com/

I would be careful with mesquite - it is very bitter. I don't use it.
Also I bought a 40 lb sack of hickory sawdust which is an economical
way to produce lots of smoke.

One of the most enjoyable ways to eat sourdough is with Texas BBQ. I
butter a thick slice, put garlic powder on it, and toast it under the
broiler - we call it Texas Toast. We'll go thru an entire loaf at one
sitting.

Our traditional Thanksgiving meal is a Texas BBQ - we haven't had
turkey on Thanksgiving in years.

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:41:00 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>For anybody out there
>looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
>Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to re-use
>the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )

Hi Heather,

I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
buckets were food grade. Same issue for folks who use plastic trash
bags for food storage. The food grade plastic really is different in
that it does not have the nasty stuff that can, and does, leach into
food.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:01:00 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>> several squirts of fish sauce (anchovies). Add 1 bunch of green=20
>> onions and that is my recipe for perfect kimchi. I give it a 24 hour=20
>> room temperature fermen, and then out it into the refrigerator for=20
>> the rest of the week.

>24 hours is much too short. Could be consumed after 4 weeks, but=20
>4 months is better. Being buried in some kind of a compost pile is
>thought by some to have a beneficial effect.

I consulted with several Korean shoppers in the Korean grocery stores
and they all told me they begin filching it after 3 days.

I have compared my 1-week batches with those sold in Korean stores,
and mine are just as well-fermented as theirs.

>> I make up two quarts a week and eat it all myself. No one else likes
>> it.

>That figures. It is not done yet.

That's not it. They don't like fermented vegetables. They won't even
eat sauerkraut. Plus my wife hates peppery food, even mild pepper like
I use.

>Well, for the mee-gooks, the fish sauce
>could well be optional, added to taste.

It's called for in every recipe I have ever seen.

>For the authentic kimchee people,
>fishheads may be preferable.

Don't forget the baby shrimp, the fresh oysters and the octopus.

>> I use a much milder variety (red pepper flakes vs hot pepper flakes)=20
>> and it makes the product less fiery.

>Sometimes it does not seem like you are a Texan at all!

Not all Texans like hot pepper. You are thinking of TexMex, and
Houston is not the greatest place for that.

You need to go farther west to get into TexMex country. It's very
popular in New Mexico, where they serve jalipino peppers on McDonalds
hamburgers.

>> I am an expert but because I control the ingredients.

>Yeah, Bob, you are a real friggin' expert, and you are in control.

Yes, Adams, I am an expert in control on certain things.

And I am glad you realize it too.

>Kimchee is conditionally on-topic here because it is good on baloney
>sandwiches made with sourdough bread and because it is based on
>a lactobacterial fermentation.

That's what I said earlier when I posted on the subject.

Is there an echo in here?

Kenneth wrote:

> I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
> buckets were food grade.

Hi Kenneth,

They are food grade.

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 17:36:03 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>
>> I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
>> buckets were food grade.
>
>Hi Kenneth,
>
>They are food grade.
>
>Best,
>
>Heather
>_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

Hi Heather,

I thank you for the tip...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 12:49:15 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>I thank you for the tip...

Sounds like something you would hear in a circumcision ward.

[Sorry, I could not overcome the temptation.]

"Bob" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 12:49:15 -0500, Kenneth
> > wrote:
>
> >I thank you for the tip...
>
> Sounds like something you would hear in a circumcision ward.
>
> [Sorry, I could not overcome the temptation.]
>

As Oscar Wilde said: "I can resist everything except temptation" ;-)

Graham

Bob wrote:

> What book do you recommend for pickling cabbage and other vegetables?
> I am using a library copy of "The Joy of Pickling", but I suspect
> there are others I should look at.

Hi Bob;

With regards to pickling vegetables I haven't done very much. I surfed
the web quite a bit for pickling recipes. I only have one book on
pickling, it is a very basic book, but has good general guidelines such
as what foods need blanching before pickling, and what foods need added
whey to induce fermentation etc. Here is the information on it:

Making Sauerkraut and Pickled Vegetables at Home: Creative Recipes for
Lactic Fermented Food to Improve Your Health (Natural Health Guide)
by Klaus Kaufmann, Annelies Schoneck
Link to the Amazon page for this book:
http://tinyurl.com/x8f2

Best,

Heather

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:09:18 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Bob wrote:
>
>> What book do you recommend for pickling cabbage and other vegetables?
>> I am using a library copy of "The Joy of Pickling", but I suspect
>> there are others I should look at.
>
>Hi Bob;
>
>With regards to pickling vegetables I haven't done very much. I surfed
>the web quite a bit for pickling recipes. I only have one book on
>pickling, it is a very basic book, but has good general guidelines such
>as what foods need blanching before pickling, and what foods need added
>whey to induce fermentation etc. Here is the information on it:
>
>Making Sauerkraut and Pickled Vegetables at Home: Creative Recipes for
>Lactic Fermented Food to Improve Your Health (Natural Health Guide)
>by Klaus Kaufmann, Annelies Schoneck
>Link to the Amazon page for this book:
>http://tinyurl.com/x8f2

Thanks for the info. I will check it out.

It may turn out that Internet recipes would work better than those in
a book. Unfortunately that is not the case for sourdough or Korean
resipes. But pickling is so common the Internet may be the best
resource.

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 18:01:33 GMT, "Graham" > wrote:

>> >I thank you for the tip...

>> Sounds like something you would hear in a circumcision ward.

>> [Sorry, I could not overcome the temptation.]

>As Oscar Wilde said: "I can resist everything except temptation" ;-)

:-}

On 1 Dec 2003 at 9:45, Kenneth wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:41:00 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> > wrote:
>
> >For anybody out there
> >looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
> > Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to
> >re-use the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )
>
> Hi Heather,
>
> I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
> buckets were food grade. Same issue for folks who use plastic trash
> bags for food storage. The food grade plastic really is different in
> that it does not have the nasty stuff that can, and does, leach into
> food.

They are the same hdpe plastic that is used in the pickle, mayo, and other
food storage buckets. No added films. The last bakery in town used them
extensively, and the health inspectors never raised an eyebrow about the
matter.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
You can't have everything. Where would you put it?

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 09:45:00 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:41:00 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:
>
>>For anybody out there
>>looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
>>Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to re-use
>>the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )
>
>Hi Heather,
>
>I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
>buckets were food grade. Same issue for folks who use plastic trash
>bags for food storage. The food grade plastic really is different in
>that it does not have the nasty stuff that can, and does, leach into
>food.
>
>All the best,

Hi again Heather,

Based on your comments, I just checked when I was at Home Depot. They
have two different types of 5 gallon buckets, one orange, the other
white.

Neither are food grade.

Of course that is not to say that you did not get food grade buckets
from HD, only that I can't.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:49:51 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> wrote:

>On 1 Dec 2003 at 9:45, Kenneth wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:41:00 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >For anybody out there
>> >looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
>> > Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to
>> >re-use the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )
>>
>> Hi Heather,
>>
>> I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
>> buckets were food grade. Same issue for folks who use plastic trash
>> bags for food storage. The food grade plastic really is different in
>> that it does not have the nasty stuff that can, and does, leach into
>> food.
>
>They are the same hdpe plastic that is used in the pickle, mayo, and other
>food storage buckets. No added films. The last bakery in town used them
>extensively, and the health inspectors never raised an eyebrow about the
>matter.
>
>Mike

Hi Mike,

When I posted the term "HD" I meant "Home Depot" rather than "high
density."

My home depot has two different 5 gallon buckets neither of which are
food grade. My understanding is that not all high density polyethylene
is appropriate for contact with food because the manufacturers use
different plasticizers depending on the intended purpose.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:23:43 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>Of course that is not to say that you did not get food grade buckets
>from HD, only that I can't.

Look in the yellow pages for a company that wholesales plastic
containers. I used to get 1 gal plastic buckets for bulk malt syrup
when I made my own beer. They were food grade and quite inexpensive
($1.00). If the company will not sell to the retail customer, they can
advise who might have what you want at a retail outlet.

But nowadays with wide open markets (at least in Houston), most
smaller wholesalers are equipped to sell retail. The issue is the
state tax which is not collected at wholesale but is collected at
retail. Of course if you have a state tax permit, you can buy just
about anything that a wholesaler has to sell (*).

Another advantage of buying from a plastics container wholesaler is
the wide variety of buckets available, either in inventory or thru
special order.

---

Three easy steps to getting a state tax permit:

1. Make up a name of a company (eg. Ken's Sourdough Co.) and register
your DBA with the county clerk, typically around $10.

2. Take your DBA certificate to the state tax office and apply for a
tax license. Elect annual payment.

3. Take your permit to the wholesaler and fill out a standard form.

Now you can buy wholesale without any tax hassles. Of course I am
assuming you will not really operate the business and therefore not
have to obtain any business licenses, if required.

in article , Kenneth at
wrote on 2/12/03 9:26 am:

> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 22:49:51 -0700, "Mike Avery"
> > wrote:
>
>> On 1 Dec 2003 at 9:45, Kenneth wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 01 Dec 2003 14:41:00 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> For anybody out there
>>>> looking but not finding free ones, you can also buy them brand new at
>>>> Home Depot in 5 gal. and I think 2 gal. sizes (pizzarias tend to
>>>> re-use the pickle buckets as grease waste buckets. )
>>>
>>> Hi Heather,
>>>
>>> I would be careful about the HD source unless I knew that these
>>> buckets were food grade. Same issue for folks who use plastic trash
>>> bags for food storage. The food grade plastic really is different in
>>> that it does not have the nasty stuff that can, and does, leach into
>>> food.
>>
>> They are the same hdpe plastic that is used in the pickle, mayo, and other
>> food storage buckets. No added films. The last bakery in town used them
>> extensively, and the health inspectors never raised an eyebrow about the
>> matter.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> When I posted the term "HD" I meant "Home Depot" rather than "high
> density."
>
> My home depot has two different 5 gallon buckets neither of which are
> food grade. My understanding is that not all high density polyethylene
> is appropriate for contact with food because the manufacturers use
> different plasticizers depending on the intended purpose.
>
> All the best,
Almost all of the Greek delis in Vancouver have food grade buckets which
they leave near the door. sometimes they are free, sometimes 50 cents or a
dollark. Feta and other things come in them. Ellen

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:26:33 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>neither of which are
>food grade

Apologies to the syntax police:

Neither of which is food grade.

Best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Ellen Wickberg" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ] ( replay of )

> Almost all of the Greek delis in Vancouver have food grade buckets =
which
> they leave near the door. Sometimes they are free, sometimes 50 cents =
or a
> dollar.

Under cover of darkness, they are free.=20

: )=20

Just be glad it isn't the sin-tax police!

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:26:33 -0500, Kenneth
> > wrote:
>
> >neither of which are
> >food grade
>
> Apologies to the syntax police:
>
> Neither of which is food grade.
>
> Best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
> If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."