I have never been able to figure out if I have enough flour during the
kneading process. I use a dough hook on a mixer but don't mind kneading by
hand. Sometimes I let the mixer go until it cleans the side of the bowl,
then knead by hand, adding flour as needed.

What I don't understand is most recipes say add flour until it's sticky but
doesn't stick to your hands. I get it that far but, if I keep going, it
seems to get more moist until it does stick to my hands. I'm afraid to keep
adding flour and making the loaf too dry.

I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone testing
dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is elastic
but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or not
enough kneading?

"drhowarddrfinedrhoward" > wrote in =
message m...

> [ ... ]

> I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
> excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone =
testing
> dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is =
elastic
> but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or =
not
> enough kneading?

Excessive kneading is likely to mess up the gluten, especially with =
sourdough.
Possibly you are kneading too much. Try doing the whole kneading by
hand. Only people with pure souls have success with the "window-pane
test."

"drhowarddrfinedrhoward" > wrote in =
message m...

> [ ... ]

> I started a new starter using foam from the first batch but don't feel =
like
> beginning at the beginning again if I don't have to.

Good. Get a starter that works, like Carl's, for instance.

Are you Dr. Howard or Dr. Fine, or Dr. Howard, Jr., perhaps? There
exists some ambiguity in your ID. Anyway, "Dr. Bob" will no doubt=20
rise to your occasion, at least to the extent of startermuckery.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com =20

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:34:51 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Anyway, "Dr. Bob" will no doubt
>rise to your occasion, at least to the extent of startermuckery.

No, I will leave that to the experts.

My comments are as follows:

1. Kneading: According to the bakers at King Arthur Flour, you should
do only two kneadings, the first for about 30 seconds - just enough to
mix the ingredients - and then let the dough rest for 20 minutes
(autolyse phase), then knead in a bread machine for 7 minutes. That's
it - no more kneading or, as you point out, you will "tear" the
gluten.

NB: To find this article I have to give you directions because KA
changes the URL to their web pages periodically. Start at
<www.kingarthurflour.com>. Click on "Online Classes" on the left
NavBar. Then click on "Breads from the hearth". Then click on
"Baguettes". Scroll down to the sections entitled "Mixing the dough"
and "Kneading the dough".

2. Testing: I have found that the drinking glass test works reasonably
well in determining the limit of slackness. Start from the
over-hydrated side and add small amounts of flour until a drinking
glass punched into the dough comes out with no dough sticking to it.

That would be about 70-80% hydration depending on how you correct for
humidity and other errors.

I find a dough made from 4 cups flour, 1 1/2 cups water and 1 tsp salt
is slack enough for sourdough yet firm enough to hold its shape for
the final rise. I include the flour and water from the starter in the
above amounts.

HTH

I got frustrated one time trying to think up a username that wasn't already
in use. It's from the 3 Stooges film where they're in a hospital posing as
doctors. Moe and Curly are brothers, hence the same last name. The
hospital intercom pages them that way. It's a fairly well known skit.

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:06:57 GMT, "drhowarddrfinedrhoward"
> wrote:

>I have never been able to figure out if I have enough flour during the
>kneading process. I use a dough hook on a mixer but don't mind kneading by
>hand. Sometimes I let the mixer go until it cleans the side of the bowl,
>then knead by hand, adding flour as needed.
>
>What I don't understand is most recipes say add flour until it's sticky but
>doesn't stick to your hands. I get it that far but, if I keep going, it
>seems to get more moist until it does stick to my hands. I'm afraid to keep
>adding flour and making the loaf too dry.
>
>I'm also concerned about making it tough. I thought I read once that
>excessive kneading makes it tough. I've seen pictures of someone testing
>dough by pulling it to see if it "sheets" without breaking. Mine is elastic
>but tends to "break". Is that due to too much flour? Not enough? Or not
>enough kneading?
>

Howdy,

(I saw your other post about starter making, but you are in very good
hands with Samartha...)

I suspect that you may be overly concerned about the amount of flour,
and also the issue of kneading generally.

Most books about bread that I have seen seem to focus on ease rather
than on making the most flavorful bread. That, in my opinion, is the
reason for authors focus on such things as "adding flour until the
dough cleans the sides of the bowl." In my experience, such advice
leads to a clay-like dough texture with a finer crumb, and less taste.

Also related to this is the following idea:

There are three ways to increase the gluten (the glue like protein in
wheat doughs that hold them together and trap gas allowing the loaves
to rise) as bread is being made:

It can be done chemically. Just read a few packages of super market
bread and you will understand.

It can be done mechanically, that is, by kneading.

And, it can be done by hydration alone. If the dry ingredients are
simply mixed with wet ingredients sufficiently to eliminate pockets of
dry flour, the gluten will form on its own.

For rapidly risen doughs that use commercial yeast, gluten formation
by hydration alone is not likely to succeed. That is because it takes
more time than the rapidly growing yeast will allow.

For sourdoughs however, gluten formation by hydration works extremely
well. The slower process allows for the formation of the gluten if the
ingredients are simply mixed rather than kneaded.

All that said, bread making is rather like wine making:

It is easy to add yeasts to grape juice that will rapidly ferment the
stuff. That produces grape juice with less sugar and with alcohol. Few
would call it real wine.

Rapidly produced bread is much the same. It looks like bread, and
sometimes feels like bread. It rarely tastes like bread.

I hope that some of this is of interest to you.

Have fun with your baking, and keep posting...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:

> Rapidly produced bread is much the same. It looks like bread, and
> sometimes feels like bread. It rarely tastes like bread.

I agree. I found this out yesterday; I made my first whole wheat yeasted
bread recipe with no sourdough. I wanted a comparison with the sourdough
breads I have been making. It (the yeasted bread) tasted almost like
sawdust, with about that texture.

On the other hand, the whole wheat sourdough bread I have made is
moister with much more flavor, and is definitely more pleasurable to
consume.

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 19:26:41 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>On the other hand, the whole wheat sourdough bread I have made is
>moister with much more flavor, and is definitely more pleasurable to
>consume.

Hi Heather,

I made commercially yeasted breads for perhaps 40 years. It seems that
whenever I slowed them down (cold liquids, flour that had been in the
freezer, dough into the fridge because I had a meeting to attend etc.)
they were better in every way.

As you may know, I am a SD devotee, but much of that is my interest in
tradition (I also have calfskin heads on my turn of the century banjos
<g>). I often wonder if the delicious results are not due mostly to
the s-l-o-w process...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
It seems that
> whenever I slowed them down (cold liquids, flour that had been in the
> freezer, dough into the fridge because I had a meeting to attend etc.)
> they were better in every way.
<snip>
> I often wonder if the delicious results are not due mostly to
> the s-l-o-w process...

I wouldn't be surprised. But the contrast between the common yeasted
bread recipe (taking less than one day to make) and the sourdoughs with
an overnight starter is stunning.

Since I am just getting going with sourdough, and getting good results,
for now I will stick with them. When I get bored perhaps I will fool
around with retarding yeasted doughs, but it may be awhile before that
happens.

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 22:17:02 GMT, HeatherInSwampscott
> wrote:

>Since I am just getting going with sourdough, and getting good results,
>for now I will stick with them.

Hi again,

I was not trying to suggest that you move in the yeast direction...

Virtually everything I do now-a-days is SD and I get better results
than in my former baker's life.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."