Several times a year I try to make bread with holes by using higher hydration.
Then I go back to 65 percent hydration for the rest of the year.

Sunday night I made a single loaf to give it the semi annual try.
Dough weight: 19 ounces
Hydration 72 to 74 percent
Flour: Wheatmontana White
Starter: 35% (Mr. Baker)
Finish weight: 16.5 ounces

Photos are shown. Sorry no ambient daylight was available.

Bread nearly done baking.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...eadonstone.jpg

Overall dimension.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...readlength.jpg

Three slices, a third of the way from one end.
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices2.jpg

Same three slices on scanner (my wifes scanner).
http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices.jpg


This is about as good is Ive been able to attain for loaf size plus holes,
and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any advice is
welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply more
holes.

Interestingly I find the loaf similar to photos shown at an older post May 8,
2002. I dont know how to hyperlink an old post. To find the photos, I
googled €œprettycolors.com€� then picked the rfs post entitled €œsteam€�.

Ed

* Ed Bechtel > 2003-12-02:
> This is about as good is I?ve been able to attain for loaf size plus holes,
> and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any advice is
> welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply more
> holes.

Looks quite good to me. About what I would expect at that hydration. What
are you unhappy with? High hydrations normally result in flatter loaves
with large irregular holes, traditional Ciabatta is a good example.
>
> Interestingly I find the loaf similar to photos shown at an older post May 8,
> 2002. I don?t know how to hyperlink an old post. To find the photos, I
> googled ?prettycolors.com? then picked the rfs post entitled ?steam?.

This one?
<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=PS9C8.11850%246T5.1103737%40bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net

Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
> ... Any advice is
> welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply more
> holes.
>
Nice looking bread, Ed. I don't think it gets much better than
that. Did you raise the dough in some kind of a form or was it
free form from the beginning? If it was all free form I am
really impressed. I have sometimes ended up with ciabatta when
it was not my intent when trying for big holey free form loaves.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
snip
>
> Three slices, a third of the way from one end.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices2.jpg
>
> Same three slices on scanner (my wife's scanner).
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices.jpg
>
>
> This is about as good is I've been able to attain for loaf size plus
holes,
> and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any advice
is
> welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply
more
> holes.
> Ed

That's impressive, Ed. I think the hole distribution is wonderful. The
holes are moving through the slice rather than around the edges. What did
you do differently this time that contributed to your success?
Janet

Charles, Janet,

After 3 hour rise, very lightly formed loaf and let it rise in one of those two
loaf metal french bread pans shaped like gull wings. I lined the pan with a
canvas cloth (for rolling pie crusts), moderately dusted with rice flour.
After a 30 minute rise flipped the loaf over onto parchment hoping the floured
crust would hold its shape better. Proofed another 30-45 minutes. Well it
spread to 8 inches, but after 5 minutes initial baking at 500F it sofa cusioned
to its shape (6-inches wide).
Thank you for your comments.

Steve, Yes that is the link.
----
Ed
PS - Have to leave for work now. I'm late again.

Steve wrote:
<About what I would expect at that hydration. What are you unhappy with?>

Ed Replies:

I am happy with the loaf, but it is no Iggy's Francessca. Also, inorder to get
this bread close to a loaf shape everything was done is short order (5 hours)
while the SD yeasts were still active and at the expense of flavor.
Improvements are always sought.

Thanks,
Ed (now I really have to leave for work)

lovely looking loaf... my taste bud's envy you.


Bob
"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Several times a year I try to make bread with holes by using higher
hydration.
> Then I go back to 65 percent hydration for the rest of the year.
>
> Sunday night I made a single loaf to give it the semi annual try.
> Dough weight: 19 ounces
> Hydration 72 to 74 percent
> Flour: Wheatmontana White
> Starter: 35% (Mr. Baker)
> Finish weight: 16.5 ounces
>
> Photos are shown. Sorry no ambient daylight was available.
>
> Bread nearly done baking.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...eadonstone.jpg
>
> Overall dimension.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...readlength.jpg
>
> Three slices, a third of the way from one end.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices2.jpg
>
> Same three slices on scanner (my wife's scanner).
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices.jpg
>
>
> This is about as good is I've been able to attain for loaf size plus
holes,
> and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any advice
is
> welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply
more
> holes.
>
> Interestingly I find the loaf similar to photos shown at an older post May
8,
> 2002. I don't know how to hyperlink an old post. To find the photos, I
> googled "prettycolors.com" then picked the rfs post entitled "steam".
>
> Ed
>
>
>
>
>

On 02 Dec 2003 06:59:05 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

>This is about as good is I've been able to attain for loaf size plus holes,
>and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any advice is
>welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simply more
>holes.

As I have mentioned before, I have used an inverted Pyrex bowl as a
baking pan with success. The crust comes out about the same as in your
picture and although the holes are not as large as yours, the crumb
does have decent size holes in general.

The other day while shopping at one of the Korean stores, I spotted a
hemispherical bowl made of highly-polished metal. It is the right size
for a large boule so I bought it for $5. I have yet to try it, but I
plan to coat it with a light film of vegetable oil and place my slack
dough in it for final rise. Then I will blast it 10 minutes at 550F,
and finish it off at 425F for 30 minutes (or until I get 200F internal
temperature.

I am hoping that I can remove the pan after the first 10-20 minutes so
I can bale the crust exposed to the oven air. But if not, then I am
not going to be concerned because there is nothing wrong with the
texture of crust that comes from bread baked in a pan.

I see no reason not to use a pan to make sourdough. It's better than
ending up with a bloated pancake.

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> I am happy with the loaf, but it is no Iggy's Francessca. Also, inorder
to get
> this bread close to a loaf shape everything was done is short order (5
hours)
> while the SD yeasts were still active and at the expense of flavor.
> Improvements are always sought.
>
> Thanks,
You are working with WheatMontana which is a high protein flour, why don't
you try 1/2 of the total flour and water as a preferment. I would think
there would still be enough gluten strength in the preferment to support the
loaf, but you should have a flavor gain from the preferment. Or, try
letting the formed loaf just begin to move and overnight it in the
refrigerator. Begin preheating your oven before you take the loaf from the
refrigerator. Preheat for an hour as high as your oven will go. Take the
loaf from the refrigerator and let it begin to warm. It doesn't have to
reach room temperature.(maybe 30-40 minutes) You should have had volume
gain overnight, so you want to put the loaf in the oven just as it begins to
lose the ultra-chill and starts to feel --I don't know how to describe
it--maybe lively? Definitely not flabby or poofy. I discovered the other
day that you can transfer dough to the peel by lifting the parchment with
the dough on it and the dough will adjust it's shape to the movement but not
deflate. Leave the parchment under the dough on the peel and get it in the
oven that way, there is much less jostling with parchment(I think) than with
corn meal or rice flour. Turn your oven down to 450F once you get the loaf
placed. You should have great oven spring and minimal horizontal slump.
Janet

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:31:08 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>
>"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
>> I am happy with the loaf, but it is no Iggy's Francessca. Also, inorder
>to get
>> this bread close to a loaf shape everything was done is short order (5
>hours)
>> while the SD yeasts were still active and at the expense of flavor.
>> Improvements are always sought.
>>
>> Thanks,
>You are working with WheatMontana which is a high protein flour, why don't
>you try 1/2 of the total flour and water as a preferment. I would think
>there would still be enough gluten strength in the preferment to support the
>loaf, but you should have a flavor gain from the preferment. Or, try
>letting the formed loaf just begin to move and overnight it in the
>refrigerator. Begin preheating your oven before you take the loaf from the
>refrigerator. Preheat for an hour as high as your oven will go. Take the
>loaf from the refrigerator and let it begin to warm. It doesn't have to
>reach room temperature.(maybe 30-40 minutes) You should have had volume
>gain overnight, so you want to put the loaf in the oven just as it begins to
>lose the ultra-chill and starts to feel --I don't know how to describe
>it--maybe lively? Definitely not flabby or poofy. I discovered the other
>day that you can transfer dough to the peel by lifting the parchment with
>the dough on it and the dough will adjust it's shape to the movement but not
>deflate. Leave the parchment under the dough on the peel and get it in the
>oven that way, there is much less jostling with parchment(I think) than with
>corn meal or rice flour. Turn your oven down to 450F once you get the loaf
>placed. You should have great oven spring and minimal horizontal slump.
>Janet
>

Howdy,

I would add a thought about the protein level:

Generally, the lower protein levels will yield a coarser crumb, also,
to my taste, better flavor.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 09:31:08 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> I am happy with the loaf, but it is no Iggy's Francessca. Also,
inorder
> >to get
> >> this bread close to a loaf shape everything was done is short order (5
> >hours)
> >> while the SD yeasts were still active and at the expense of flavor.
> >> Improvements are always sought.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >You are working with WheatMontana which is a high protein flour, why
don't
> >you try 1/2 of the total flour and water as a preferment. I would
think
> >there would still be enough gluten strength in the preferment to support
the
> >loaf, but you should have a flavor gain from the preferment. Or, try
> >letting the formed loaf just begin to move and overnight it in the
> >refrigerator. Begin preheating your oven before you take the loaf from
the
> >refrigerator. Preheat for an hour as high as your oven will go. Take
the
> >loaf from the refrigerator and let it begin to warm. It doesn't have to
> >reach room temperature.(maybe 30-40 minutes) You should have had volume
> >gain overnight, so you want to put the loaf in the oven just as it begins
to
> >lose the ultra-chill and starts to feel --I don't know how to describe
> >it--maybe lively? Definitely not flabby or poofy. I discovered the
other
> >day that you can transfer dough to the peel by lifting the parchment with
> >the dough on it and the dough will adjust it's shape to the movement but
not
> >deflate. Leave the parchment under the dough on the peel and get it in
the
> >oven that way, there is much less jostling with parchment(I think) than
with
> >corn meal or rice flour. Turn your oven down to 450F once you get the
loaf
> >placed. You should have great oven spring and minimal horizontal slump.
> >Janet
> >
>
> Howdy,
>
> I would add a thought about the protein level:
>
> Generally, the lower protein levels will yield a coarser crumb, also,
> to my taste, better flavor.
>
> HTH,
>
> --
> Kenneth
>
That's true, but how do you feel about the issue of gluten breakdown? Is
that a factor with long fermentation or large portions of pre-ferment?
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> Some good Ideas.

Ed, In addition to Janet's good suggestions I will pass on a
discovery that surprised me. I found that some extra mechanical
development helped at times when I was going for big hole bread.
I typically use minimal kneading for sourdough and you would
think that higer hydration bread would require even less, but it
seemed to help.

You probably already know this but I will write it for those who
may not. You can hand knead higher hydration dough right in the
mixing bowl. The dough will pick up less flour than if you knead
on a board. To get started you can very lightly dust flour
around the rim where the dough meets the bowl. Then you can
plunge your hand down the side of the bowl and pick up dough and
move it to the center. If you are quick, the dough will not
stick to your hands. There are other ways , but that is the one
I like best.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

How does someone control, or measure for that matter, the amount of=20
hydration in their dough? I've always made the same recipe, but it=20
lacked the wonderfully big holes that I'm used to with San Francisco=20
Sourdough.

I definately want to give more hydration a try next time, but need some=20
help understanding how to go abouts it. :-)

Robert
---------------------------------------

Ed Bechtel wrote:
> Several times a year I try to make bread with holes by using higher hyd=
ration.=20
> Then I go back to 65 percent hydration for the rest of the year.=20
>=20
> Sunday night I made a single loaf to give it the semi annual try.
> Dough weight: 19 ounces
> Hydration 72 to 74 percent
> Flour: Wheatmontana White
> Starter: 35% (Mr. Baker)
> Finish weight: 16.5 ounces
>=20
> Photos are shown. Sorry no ambient daylight was available.
>=20
> Bread nearly done baking.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...eadonstone.jpg
>=20
> Overall dimension.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/im...readlength.jpg
>=20
> Three slices, a third of the way from one end.
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices2.jpg
>=20
> Same three slices on scanner (my wife=E2=80=99s scanner).
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/images/3slices.jpg
>=20
>=20
> This is about as good is I=E2=80=99ve been able to attain for loaf size=
plus holes,
> and I fear this is the limit for [my] home baking capabilities. Any adv=
ice is
> welcome for obtaining a more distributed airiness to the bread, or simp=
ly more
> holes.
>=20
> Interestingly I find the loaf similar to photos shown at an older post =
May 8,
> 2002. I don=E2=80=99t know how to hyperlink an old post. To find the p=
hotos, I
> googled =E2=80=9Cprettycolors.com=E2=80=9D then picked the rfs post ent=
itled =E2=80=9Csteam=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Ed
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20

On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:20:04 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>That's true, but how do you feel about the issue of gluten breakdown? Is
>that a factor with long fermentation or large portions of pre-ferment?
>Janet

Hi Janet,

In my experience, all is fine if things don't get too sour. Most of
the breads I do are based on the French traditions. They are not
particularly sour. I find that (somewhat) lower protein levels work
just fine even with rather long fermentations (at somewhat lower
temperatures) and/or with a large proportion of the dough from
pre-ferment.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:43:08 -0800, Robert Marshall
> wrote:

>How does someone control, or measure for that matter, the amount of
>hydration in their dough? I've always made the same recipe, but it
>lacked the wonderfully big holes that I'm used to with San Francisco
>Sourdough.
>
>I definately want to give more hydration a try next time, but need some
>help understanding how to go abouts it. :-)
>
>Robert
>---------------------------------------

Hi Robert,

I may be misinterpreting your question, but...

The traditional system for such measurement is extremely simple. Just
measure the proportion (by weight) of the wet ingredients to the dry
ingredients (usually only the flour is included.)

So, for example:

Suppose I had a sough that included 700g of water and 1000g of flour
with some salt.

That would be a 70% hydration dough (700 / 1000).

If you want to try higher hydrations just add more water (or whatever
liquid you are using.)

Of course, the dough will be softer, but that is not much of a
difficulty once you get used to it.

If I missed the real intent of your question, please give it another
go.

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Robert Marshall wrote:
>
> How does someone control, or measure for that matter, the amount of
> hydration in their dough?

Not to be a wise guy, it is simply a matter of adding more
water. Just add a little more water to your usual recipe.
Increase it a little at a time untill you get a dough that yeilds
the bread you want. Don't worry about what the actual hydration
is. Who cares? It is a non issue for your personal use. Slack
dough and a hot oven are the two big factors to get big holey
bread. All the rest is working the margins. Not that that is a
bad thing, but first things, first.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Dec 2003 10:20:04 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> > wrote:
>
> >That's true, but how do you feel about the issue of gluten breakdown? Is
> >that a factor with long fermentation or large portions of pre-ferment?
> >Janet
>
> Hi Janet,
>
> In my experience, all is fine if things don't get too sour. Most of
> the breads I do are based on the French traditions. They are not
> particularly sour. I find that (somewhat) lower protein levels work
> just fine even with rather long fermentations (at somewhat lower
> temperatures) and/or with a large proportion of the dough from
> pre-ferment.
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
The thing that I am not clear on--is it the souring that causes the gluten
breakdown; the consumption of flour constituents by organisms; and/or what
role does temperature play in this? A chicken or the egg question.
Janet

"Kenneth" > wrote in message =
...

> In my experience, all is fine if things don't get too sour. Most of
> the breads I do are based on the French traditions. They are not
> particularly sour. I find that (somewhat) lower protein levels work
> just fine even with rather long fermentations (at somewhat lower
> temperatures) and/or with a large proportion of the dough from
> pre-ferment.

Kenneth, let's see your bread.

Post pictures (well, links to pictures).

Make yourself credible. So far you are in a class with "Bob".

( You should be doing some great stuff with that Bongard oven
you mentioned in=20
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm...m44b18i9963jl=
@4ax.com )

From what you have told, you seem to be well into five figures for=20
bread-making gadgets. It seems to me you should be exhibiting a=20
higher level of leadership at r.f.s.

If you are getting good results with your equipment, which seems
doubtful, you should warn that others may not get the same results
as you do to differences in implementation. For instance, a chunk
of unleavened dough can be blown up like popcorn on a hot enough
thick enough deck, particularly if a blast of superheated steam can be
brought to bear.

I am still interested to hear about how Bongard superheated steam=20
compares with he "pressure-cooker trick" you recommended for years.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Actually, you got the question right on. I guess I hadn't thought about
weighing water. LOL!!

Robert
-------------------

Kenneth wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 10:43:08 -0800, Robert Marshall
> > wrote:
>
>
>>How does someone control, or measure for that matter, the amount of
>>hydration in their dough? I've always made the same recipe, but it
>>lacked the wonderfully big holes that I'm used to with San Francisco
>>Sourdough.
>>
>>I definately want to give more hydration a try next time, but need some
>>help understanding how to go abouts it. :-)
>>
>>Robert
>>---------------------------------------
>
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I may be misinterpreting your question, but...
>
> The traditional system for such measurement is extremely simple. Just
> measure the proportion (by weight) of the wet ingredients to the dry
> ingredients (usually only the flour is included.)
>
> So, for example:
>
> Suppose I had a sough that included 700g of water and 1000g of flour
> with some salt.
>
> That would be a 70% hydration dough (700 / 1000).
>
> If you want to try higher hydrations just add more water (or whatever
> liquid you are using.)
>
> Of course, the dough will be softer, but that is not much of a
> difficulty once you get used to it.
>
> If I missed the real intent of your question, please give it another
> go.
>
> HTH,
>

Of course you're right. All you have to do is add water, but I'm a bit
of a techie and enjoy figuring out things the scientific way :-)

Robert
----------------

Charles Perry wrote:

>
> Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>>How does someone control, or measure for that matter, the amount of
>>hydration in their dough?
>
>
> Not to be a wise guy, it is simply a matter of adding more
> water. Just add a little more water to your usual recipe.
> Increase it a little at a time untill you get a dough that yeilds
> the bread you want. Don't worry about what the actual hydration
> is. Who cares? It is a non issue for your personal use. Slack
> dough and a hot oven are the two big factors to get big holey
> bread. All the rest is working the margins. Not that that is a
> bad thing, but first things, first.
>
> Regards,
>
> Charles
>

* Ed Bechtel > 2003-12-02:
> Charles, Janet,
>
> After 3 hour rise, very lightly formed loaf and let it rise in one of those two
> loaf metal french bread pans shaped like gull wings. I lined the pan with a
> canvas cloth (for rolling pie crusts), moderately dusted with rice flour.
> After a 30 minute rise flipped the loaf over onto parchment hoping the floured
> crust would hold its shape better. Proofed another 30-45 minutes.

Why? I typically allow my shaped loaves to rise in a canvas sling
suspended from a wooden dowel on each end. This would be similar to
your canvas & baguette pan technique. However, I load the loaves into
the oven as quickly as possible after removing from the canvas to
minimize spreading. The only problem I have with this technique is
that higher hydration loaves sometimes stick to the canvas a little.

The thing I particularly like about Iggy's Francese (besides the flavor)
is the translucent quality of the crumb. Hard to tell from your
pictures if you acheived that at all.

--
Steve W
s (dot) wal (at) verizon (dot) net

"Robert Marshall" > in message =
news as follows:

> Of course you're right. All you have to do is add water, but I'm a bit =

> of a techie and enjoy figuring out things the scientific way :-)

OK, scientific techie wiseass, just tell how to determine the amount
of moisture in the flour, and explain how to compensate for non-
standard amounts of it.

:-)

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 11:32:29 -0800, Robert Marshall
> wrote:

>Actually, you got the question right on. I guess I hadn't thought about
>weighing water. LOL!!
>
>Robert
>-------------------

Hi again Robert,

Well, I'm glad we got that cleared up!!

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well, first off, you have to freeze dry the flour. This will remove all
water. You can then measure that for a base line. (If you have a
university research laboratory that deals in food preparation, or a
backpack food company handy, they might be able to do that for you for a
small fee.

This baseline measurement is compared to the actual weight of the flour
you are using in your atmospheric conditions, and you can use the same
formulae as mentioned earlier to figure out the hydration of the actual
flour. This will change based on barometric pressure, atmospheric
saturation and the amount of wind blowing through your kitchen when you
sift the flour. This doesn't account for density though.

To figure out density is a whole 'nother post. :-)

---------------------------------------

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Robert Marshall" replied to
> as follows:
>
>
>>Of course you're right. All you have to do is add water, but I'm a bit
>>of a techie and enjoy figuring out things the scientific way :-)
>
>
> OK, scientific techie wiseass, just tell how to determine the amount
> of moisture in the flour, and explain how to compensate for non-
> standard amounts of it.
>
> :-)
>

Robert Marshall wrote:
>
> ... but I'm a bit
> of a techie and enjoy figuring out things the scientific way :-)
>

Well you could do it the way I suspect that many of the techie
sounding folks do it. Just SWAG a number for hydration that
sounds good then adjust the other numbers so the math works out
and viola! it is all scientific.

Baker's percentages are used to make scaling recipes less of a
chore, not to describe scientific phenomona. The Wonder Bread
factory may take the amount of water held in the flour into
account, but the corner bakery- not in a million years.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:26:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>So far you are in a class with "Bob".

No, you are not in a class with us.

Janet wrote:

<< You are working with WheatMontana which is a high protein flour, why don't
you try 1/2 of the total flour and water as a preferment. >>

Ed replies:
I am in fact trying the preferment method. I made a stiff preferment two days
ago that has been growing in the fridge. I just now made up a batch of 66%
hydration dough trying the semolina flour addition. I want to taste the
differences from my regular SD bread then will adapt to higher hydration
doughs. Will keep you posted.

Ed

Robert Marshall wrote:
>
> Well, first off, you have to freeze dry the flour.

No, you don't, unless you need to be compulsivly anal about stuff. There
is an approximation to heat the flour to a certain temperature. This is
precise enough for baking purpose.

Look at my SD web pages, there is a non-brainer hydration test where it
talks about it.

Of cause, you can drive the precision with the hydration up to the wazoo
(reason given above), but the other factors in sourdough baking sure
outweigh a 1 - 2 % deviation. For example fermentation losses, water
increase by fermentation, fermentation speed influence by temperature,
structural changes caused by fermentation. Try to control those
variables under consideration of impact on the final product and your
need for control hydration < 1 % will evaporate very quickly.

Samartha



--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Steve wrote:

<< The thing I particularly like about Iggy's Francese (besides the flavor) is
the translucent quality of the crumb. Hard to tell from your pictures if you
acheived that at all. >>

Ed replies:

I did not achieve the translucent quality. I secretly wonder if Iggy is
slipping a little commercial yeast into his dough for a little boost. Or it
could be commercial ovens have incredibly more thermal mass than a home baking
pizza stone.

Thanks, Ed

"Samartha Deva" >=20
wrote in message ...
Robert Marshall wrote:

> > Well, first off, you have to freeze dry the flour.=20

> No, you don't, unless you need to be compulsivly anal=20
> about stuff.=20

So who is it you iss accusing of being compulsively anal?

Well, you know, like I said before, you can just weigh your
flour to start. So you got a 100-lb. sack of it and it weighs
105 pounds. Then the incremental moisture is 5%. (Of course
you need to tare on an identical empty sack.) That is a much=20
easier way. Of course, you could do it with a 5-lb. sack of
flour, but then you would need to do a calculation.

For the rest, you can use the Samartha.net calculators. Then,
when you are finished, you just need to adjust all of the flour
values down and the water values up by the per cent=20
incremental moisture. Technically you'd need to do it too
for the sunflower seeds and all the other stuff.

Somebody proposed that all you really need to do is to weigh
the water so everything will come right. That's even easier,
I guess.

What I do is keep track of the water and weigh the final=20
dough. From that I calculate the "hydration". In the soggy=20
summertime, it seems that the calculated value can be 10%=20
low, even slightly more. That's a judgement call based on my=20
assessment of the dough plasticity and the holeyness of the=20
bread. But what do I know?

---
DickA

"Bob" > wrote in message =
...
On Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:26:19 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

> > So far you are in a class with "Bob".

> No, you are not in a class with us.

I am not sure what you are getting with that "us" reference,=20
"Bob", but the only class that you and I are in together is the=20
class of posters that Kenneth has killfiled.

BTW, my spam has picked up ~500%. So I can say that you
are as effective on my email as you are on the newsgroup.

---
DickA

On 03 Dec 2003 15:24:11 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
wrote:

>Steve wrote:
>
><< The thing I particularly like about Iggy's Francese (besides the flavor) is
>the translucent quality of the crumb. Hard to tell from your pictures if you
>acheived that at all. >>
>
>Ed replies:
>
>I did not achieve the translucent quality. I secretly wonder if Iggy is
>slipping a little commercial yeast into his dough for a little boost. Or it
>could be commercial ovens have incredibly more thermal mass than a home baking
>pizza stone.
>
>Thanks, Ed


Howdy,

Indeed, commercial ovens are dramatically more massive, but, I don't
think that has anything to do with the "translucent" crumb issue.

In my experience, that comes with any wheat bread that is done slowly.
I certainly may be wrong but always have assumed that it was caused by
some sort of more complete hydration than was achieved when the
process was faster.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Chill out baby! I was just being a smart ass to Dick Adams' previous
response.

Maybe you couldn't figure that out with the "wind blowing through the
kitchen..." part of it?

Robert

------------------------

Samartha Deva wrote:

> Robert Marshall wrote:
>
>>Well, first off, you have to freeze dry the flour.
>
>
> No, you don't, unless you need to be compulsivly anal about stuff. There
> is an approximation to heat the flour to a certain temperature. This is
> precise enough for baking purpose.
>
> Look at my SD web pages, there is a non-brainer hydration test where it
> talks about it.
>
> Of cause, you can drive the precision with the hydration up to the wazoo
> (reason given above), but the other factors in sourdough baking sure
> outweigh a 1 - 2 % deviation. For example fermentation losses, water
> increase by fermentation, fermentation speed influence by temperature,
> structural changes caused by fermentation. Try to control those
> variables under consideration of impact on the final product and your
> need for control hydration < 1 % will evaporate very quickly.
>
> Samartha
>
>
>

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On 03 Dec 2003 15:24:11 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
> wrote:
>
> Indeed, commercial ovens are dramatically more massive, but, I don't
> think that has anything to do with the "translucent" crumb issue.
>
>

In my limited experience, the translucent quality of the crumb comes from
longer fermentation/proofing. It occurs also in my yeasted breads when
there has been a significant pre-fermenting period.

Graham

On Wed, 03 Dec 2003 19:06:26 GMT, "Graham" > wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>> On 03 Dec 2003 15:24:11 GMT, ojunk (Ed Bechtel)
>> wrote:
>>
>> Indeed, commercial ovens are dramatically more massive, but, I don't
>> think that has anything to do with the "translucent" crumb issue.
>>
>>
>
>In my limited experience, the translucent quality of the crumb comes from
>longer fermentation/proofing. It occurs also in my yeasted breads when
>there has been a significant pre-fermenting period.
>
>Graham
>

Hi Graham,

I agree completely, and should have mentioned that I also see that
result with slowly fermented yeasted breads.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."