Hello,

I have a number of questions about whole-wheat sourdough:

1) Is hydration as we know it in the white SD world still valid with
whole grains? I'd say no since whole grains are able to absorb more
water so a 70% hydrated white dough will feel softer that the
equivalent whole wheat one.

2) What is the 'holy-grail' of whole grain SD? In white SD we are
generally aiming for a crispy crust, open crumb. In whole grain, open
crumb would be very difficult to arrive at due to its heaviness. Is
it even possible in any sort of frequency?

3) I have a theory that rancid whole grain flours are more noticable
than white flour. I base this on the fact that whole grain flours
contain more oils than white flour. Is this true?

Any comments on whole grain SD? This seems to me to open up a
different sort of challenge in bread making. I look forward to
hearing your comments.

Thank you,

Bill Kowzicki

Bill Kowzicki wrote:
>
> 1) Is hydration as we know it in the white SD world still valid with
> whole grains?

Hydration expressed as a percentage is just as usless for
communication regarding whole grain flours as it is with white
flour. It is valid measurment when you are doing your own work
with the same lot of flour in the same environment. Telling me
that you get a soft dough tells me more than xx% hydration does.


> 2) What is the 'holy-grail' of whole grain SD? In white SD we
are
> generally aiming for a crispy crust, open crumb.

I think this is off topic, being, as it is, a religious question.
However, for me, the goal is good tasting bread.

>
> 3) I have a theory that rancid whole grain flours are more noticable
> than white flour.

This is not theory, it is fact. You have not experienced rancid
until you smell/taste whole spelt flour that has gone bad.

> Any comments on whole grain SD?

In general, the more whole grain flour, the heavier the bread
will be. Whole grain flour does absorb more water than white
flour and does so at a slower rate. People who claim to make
light whole wheat bread use more liquid and more mechanical
development of the dough. A good description of that process is
found in the book "Laurels Kitchen Bread Book"


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Charles Perry wrote:

> ...People who claim to make
> light whole wheat bread use more liquid and more mechanical
> development of the dough. A good description of that process is
> found in the book "Laurels Kitchen Bread Book"
>
For those who can't get to a library, Mike has distilled the
esentials of the process under the topics 100% whole wheat bread
at his Website:
http://www.otherwhen.com/SourDough/index.html

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Regarding question number 2:

For whole grain breads, the crust and crumb I prefer is a rustic look. I have
given up on using 100 percent whole grain. I am a sissy and use no more than 25
percent whole grain for the flavor and character that it adds to the bread.

Two photos are shown at weblink. A mix of whole wheat and rye and white was
used. Click on thumbnails for bigger photo.

http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/Documents.html


Note: as far as holes go with rustic loaves, the only one I got was where the
thermometer was stuck in.


Ed

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/Documents.html

> Note: as far as holes go with rustic loaves, the only one I got was where
the
> thermometer was stuck in.

> Ed

Ed, I think the crumb is excellent. There is a sourdough bakery here that
doesn't produce anything that looks any better. They call their loaf with
a flour mixture similar to yours their "Rustic Loaf" so I guess you've got
everything right.
Janet

Ed Bechtel wrote:
>
> Two photos are shown at weblink.
>
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/Documents.html
>
Nice bread, Ed. Don't be modest, there are plenty who would be
happy to make such nice looking loaves with all white flour.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Janet, Charles,

Thanks for the comments.
I really liked the way this loaf came out. I just thought it was funny that
the one place arbitrarily picked to slice the bread was right through the goofy
looking thermometer hole. Especially since that was one of the few times I used
a thermometer.

Oh by the way, Janet, speaking of white bread with long retarded preferments, I
tried your technique last week. I let a stiff preferment coast in the
refrigerator for over 2 days. Then using the ratios you provided plus semolina
flour, made a single loaf. The risen and formed loaf was then put back in the
refrigerator another 8 hours. The hydration was lower than usual so the crumb
was tight, but it was a great loaf. However€¦ I could not tell a distinct
difference in flavor from my other white sourdough. I will try it again and
let the risen loaf set for a full 24 hours in fridge. Also, it could be that
Wheatmontana flour doesnt have as much flavor as your brand.

Photos of Janet-style bread included:

http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/Preferment.html

Thanks,
Ed

Ed

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Oh by the way, Janet, speaking of white bread with long retarded
preferments, I
> tried your technique last week. I let a stiff preferment coast in the
> refrigerator for over 2 days. Then using the ratios you provided plus
semolina
> flour, made a single loaf. The risen and formed loaf was then put back in
the
> refrigerator another 8 hours. The hydration was lower than usual so the
crumb
> was tight, but it was a great loaf. However. I could not tell a distinct
> difference in flavor from my other white sourdough. I will try it again
and
> let the risen loaf set for a full 24 hours in fridge. Also, it could be
that
> Wheatmontana flour doesn't have as much flavor as your brand.
>
> Photos of Janet-style bread included:
>
> http://members.aol.com/smoken1667/Preferment.html
> Ed

That's a very pretty loaf. It could be as far a taste goes that there are
different paths to the same loaf. I notice that you allowed the loaf to
rise before you refrigerated it. I just let mine begin to move and then
refrigerate and that works out to 8-10 hours in the refrigerator for the
rising loaf. This method works for me as it allows me to produce bread on a
regular schedule with little effort while still going away to work each day.
The hydration you can tinker with as WheatMontana probably absorbs water a
little bit differently than my Guisto's. Looking at the sides of your
bread, I think your dough may have been a bit more dry than I make mine.
The sides on mine don't pull up as strongly. The dough that I knead in the
KitchenAid doesn't come up off of the bowl bottom until just about minute 6.
Before that it is pretty much a moving puddle that wrinkles on the hook.
Between minute 5 and 6 it moves up the hook and all of a sudden it smoothes
out and looks like an upside-down soft-serve ice cream cone. Within seconds
the dough throws out a 'thumb' at the bottom of the hook that moves around
the bowl. That's when I quit kneading. This dough will pour from the bowl
and you'll have to sprinkle it with flour to be able to round it up and move
it to greased bowl for fermentation.

I'm glad that you tried the method. It's nice to have some feed back.

Janet