I often hear that you can't make REALLY sour bread with the 1847
culture. But yesterday we disproved that myth. We made a San
Francisco style sourdough last Friday, formed loaves, covered them
with saran wrap, and put then in the walk-in refrigerator. We keep the
walk-in at 55 to 60 and use it as a retarder rather than as a true
refrigerator. We think that keeping it at 34 (or other more traditional
refrigerator temps) is just too cold.

Monday morning, we rolled the cart with the trays of bread into the
proofer and fired up the oven. An hour or so later, we started baking
the bread.

Once it was cool, I tasted the bread. It didn't have a hint of sour, it
wasn't somewhat sour, it wasn't kinda sour, it was sour. That wasn't
the only taste, it still had the wheaten taste of good bread, the crust
had the caramelized taste notes you hope for. In short, it wasn't just
sour, it was also good. Sadly, it had been in the retarder too long, so
the loaves weren't very pretty.

Our next door neighbor just moved here from San Francisco and
commented how much he missed his home. Especially the bread. I
handed him a loaf, commenting it might be the taste of home, or it
might be the taste that drives him back home. He said he'd pass it on
to his wife. He must have decided to try it first because 10 minutes
later he was back saying he was "in love". I'll just assume he meant
the bread.

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Two
Hundred
Thousand
Men
Use
Burma-Shave

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.18.1071587258.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> ... San Francisco style sourdough ... walk-in at 55 to 60 ... use it =
as=20
> retarder (Friday --> Monday) ... (bread) wasn't just sour, it was=20
> also good.

I think you can get the same effect faster at higher temperature. =20

Charles Perry uses the same sort of trick, but to prevent his bread
from getting sour. But I think it is just cold overnight.

> Sadly, it had been in the retarder too long, so the loaves weren't=20
> very pretty.

Not pretty how? I can get ugly bread in less than a total day, but
at higher process temperatures. And without any retarder at all.
I mean the kind where the gluten tears

> neighbor .. said he'd pass it on to his wife... 10 minutes later he=20
> was back saying he was "in love". I'll just assume he meant the=20
> bread.

He could have meant most anything. Maybe that he had nothing=20
good to say about the bread, and preferred to talk about his wife,
something like the TV ad person who chooses to talk about the=20
good news about his car insurance premium.

You seem to be attempting to credibilize the OWT about cold=20
"proofing" making for sour bread.

It was just recently reported that sour bread is made by using=20
a relatively small inoculation of culture. What do you think about=20
that? That thesis was attributed to Ed Wood.

We should really write down all of the things that have been proposed
to make the bread sour, and examine them one by one. For the=20
title, in our 101 series -- "101 ways to make sourdough bread sour".

---
DickA

On 16 Dec 2003 at 16:38, Dick Adams wrote:


> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.18.1071587258.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com..

> > ... San Francisco style sourdough ... walk-in at 55 to 60 ... use it
> > as retarder (Friday --> Monday) ... (bread) wasn't just sour, it
> > was also good.

> I think you can get the same effect faster at higher temperature.

Hard to say.... when I proof bread at higher temperatures it rises quickly, but I don't get
the same level of sour as with the long cold. I've been resistant to cold proofing for
some time...

> Charles Perry uses the same sort of trick, but to prevent his bread
> from getting sour. But I think it is just cold overnight.

I've done overnight and it the bread wasn't any more sour than a short rise.

> > Sadly, it had been in the retarder too long, so the loaves weren't
> > very pretty.

> Not pretty how? I can get ugly bread in less than a total day, but at
> higher process temperatures. And without any retarder at all. I mean
> the kind where the gluten tears

The gluten tore, dough oozed out. It was lumpy. Some loaves were pretty much OK.

> You seem to be attempting to credibilize the OWT about cold
> "proofing" making for sour bread.

No, just reporting my experience.

> It was just recently reported that sour bread is made by using
> a relatively small inoculation of culture. What do you think about
> that? That thesis was attributed to Ed Wood.

Using less culture is a way to extend the rise time. Longer rises tend to lead to more
sour taste... Ed Woods did this in both books. He also suggests a warmer rise for more
sour, but that hasn't really worked for me.

> We should really write down all of the things that have been proposed
> to make the bread sour, and examine them one by one. For the title,
> in our 101 series -- "101 ways to make sourdough bread sour".

There are few areas as fraught with old husband tales as sourdough. Anything you
want to do... you'll hear 101 ways to do it. And they will all be contradictory...

Mike
--
Mike Avery

ICQ: 16241692 AOL IM:MAvery81230
Phone: 970-642-0280
* Spam is for lusers who can't get business any other
way *

Once seen on road signs all over the United States:
Use this cream
A day
Or two
Then don't call her--
She'll call you
Burma-Shave

Mike Avery wrote:
>
> I often hear that you can't make REALLY sour bread with the 1847
> culture.

Says who - on this ng? Since when are you paying attention to trolls;-)

Carl's gets sour, on my SD web pages, the Carl's I link has pH
measurements, with the lowest @ 3.94 when growing the starter. Ferment
your dough for 8 hours (outside the fridge) and you get your sour bread,
probably need a baking stone for that.

Every sourdough starter worth its name, including Carl's, goes way below
pH 4.0. Making bread from it is another issue. Maybe that's where the
problem is - not the starter, but the "making bread"?


Samartha



--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message =
news:mailman.20.1071631373.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> > I think you can get the same effect faster at higher temperature. =20

> Hard to say.... when I proof bread at higher temperatures it rises=20
> quickly, but I don't get the same level of sour as with the long cold. =
=20

It should depend on how long at what temperature. Within normal limits, =

warmer makes for faster. But cooler much much longer can beat warmer=20
shorter.

Does that make sense to you?

> Using less culture is a way to extend the rise time. Longer rises =
tend to=20
> lead to more sour taste...

So do shorter, warmer rises.=20

How about multistage fermentations, like when one starts with a fraction =
of=20
a teaspoon-full of culture and builds through several stages including a =
sponge
and the final rise?

That's a small amount of culture, but the process can go quite rapidly =
in=20
an incubator, more slowly at room temperature, and probably could take
a week or more in your "retarder". But in the end one could have quite
sour bread at any process temperatures. And not-very-sour bread if one
shortened the schedule at any of the mentioned temperatures.

> There are few areas as fraught with old husband tales as sourdough.=20

Sometimes you speak as one in fear of one's wife.

> Anything you want to do... you'll hear 101 ways to do it. And they =
will=20
> all be contradictory...

Good for writing a book, possibly for presenting a course to hapless=20
neophytes, but hopeless for conscientious instruction.

---
DickA

Mike Avery wrote:
>
>...We made a San Francisco style sourdough last Friday, formed loaves, covered them
> with saran wrap, and put then in the walk-in refrigerator. We keep the
> walk-in at 55 to 60 and use it as a retarder rather than as a true
> refrigerator...
> ... In short, it wasn't just sour, it was also good.
>
Well, I would rather post observations than theory, but since you
posted the observation, I will give my idea. I have thought for
some time that the folklore and myth of SF sourdough, to the
extent that there was any basis in fact, owed more to the climate
of San Francisco than any unique sourdough culture. At least this
was true in the past when the ledgends were thought up.

SF gets warm in the day, but when the sun goes down and the sea
breeze comes in off the bay, it gets colds right away. The
coldest I have ever been was in SF in July. The climate is
perfect for baking sourdough. The baker bakes his morning bread
and then makes the dough for the next day. it is warm in the
afternoon to get the dough going. Then the loaves are formed and
set aside to rise. The cool of the evening provides a perfect
natural retarding temperature so the dough can mature at a slow
pace overnight and develop flavor and sour before the morning
bake.

Makes more sense to me than speculating some mysterious strain of
Lactobacilli.

Regards,

Charles

--
Charles Perry
Reply to: chefcdp*at*aol.com

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

In article >,
Samartha Deva > wrote:

> Mike Avery wrote:
> >
> > I often hear that you can't make REALLY sour bread with the 1847
> > culture.
>
> Says who - on this ng? Since when are you paying attention to trolls;-)

Since when did I get troll status? ;-)

There are a couple of us whmo I wouldn't call trolls in this group who
fail dismally to get sour bread from Carls starter. Beats me why.

marcella

>
> Carl's gets sour, on my SD web pages, the Carl's I link has pH
> measurements, with the lowest @ 3.94 when growing the starter. Ferment
> your dough for 8 hours (outside the fridge) and you get your sour bread,
> probably need a baking stone for that.
>
> Every sourdough starter worth its name, including Carl's, goes way below
> pH 4.0. Making bread from it is another issue. Maybe that's where the
> problem is - not the starter, but the "making bread"?
>
>
> Samartha

"Charles Perry" > wrote in message =
...

> I have thought for some time that the folklore and myth of SF=20
> sourdough, to the extent that there was any basis in fact, owed=20
> more to the climate of San Francisco than any unique sourdough=20
> culture. At least this was true in the past when the ledgends were=20
> thought up.

One persistent myth, possibly based on fact, is that historic SF=20
sourdough bread was baked three times daily, based on a mother
sponge which was doubled for each bake. The relevant climate
would have been the interior climates of the bakeries, which I have
surmised would have been ~75=B0F., dependent on warmth from=20
ovens and sensibly moderated ventilation.

Three shifts are probably a thing of the past for most non-industrial
bakeries. I understand that Acme bakes on two shifts and uses=20
retardation. They say it is for effect, but it may well in part, =
mostly,=20
or altogether, be for convenience. Innumerable boutique bakeries go=20
their own individual ways, these days, each with it own incredibly=20
mystical rationalization for each of its bizarre process steps and=20
ancillary flourishes (all considerably expanded and obfuscated if=20
the proprietor has a book in mind or in progress).

I continue to feel that cold processing of dough, if not for =
convenience,
is an affectation. It does make dough dense, rubbery, and clompy,=20
which some may consider to be desirable properties.

---
DickA

"Marcella Tracy Peek" > wrote in message =
...

> There are a couple of us whmo I wouldn't call trolls=20
> in this group who fail dismally to get sour bread from=20
> Carls starter. Beats me why.

Some of the most serious posters have been called trolls.
It is on account of the actual trolls not having a clear idea
of what a troll actually is.

As far as sour bread from Carl's starter is concerned, if
we assume that you are doing white wheat sourdough from=20
a fully activated sponge and/or starter, the average advice=20
for allowing the dough to increase in volume by a factor of
two, and then plopping it onto the stone, will not get you a=20
very sour loaf.

By the time souring has occurred, enough gas has been=20
liberated to raise the loaf four- or five-fold. If your dough
is good and holds gas well, that would be bloated to the
extent of being hard to handle if it were a free-form loaf.
So, for success, either 1. it would have had a deflation, or=20
2. it would have leaked gas during the rise, or else 3. it would=20
have risen in a form like a pan, for instance.

That is probably true for most, if not all, sourdough cultures,
not only Carl's. A culture with a very lethargic yeast might
produce a sour doughloaf during a 2-fold volume increase, but
I have never had that experience. Such a thing can also happen
if the sponge has gone beyond peak to the point of acid inhibition
of yeast. But good bread is not made that way.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Marcella Tracy Peek wrote:

> Since when did I get troll status? ;-)
>
> There are a couple of us whmo I wouldn't call trolls in this group who
> fail dismally to get sour bread from Carls starter. Beats me why.

About 2 1/2 years ago, you posted:

> > I have had Carls starter for 4 years or so and it's never been sour for
> > me. Great rise, good flavor but never sour. Others here on the list
> > state it's very sour for them. Dunno why....we've compaired baking notes
> > and when I follow theirs exactly mine still isn't sour. I recently got a
> > grape starter from a class I took in Monterey and that makes fairly sour
> > bread. I know there are lots of other commercial starters available that
> > can get you the sour flavor.
> >
> > marcella

So, it looks you have this "Carl's" for well over 6 years and it's not
getting sour.

It's probably all too well engrained by now.

Frankly, I don't want to know why you chose to do it that way (sticking
with a "non-sour-performing" starter), what the underlying reason for
this is and what exactly happened over 6 years ago, when you got the
Carl's and something must have gotten into the wrong track but someone's
similar experience posted must have nudged me into doing this:

http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE/02-01-26/

You can bet on having the required organisms for sourness in the powder
the Carl's people sent you. What happened that it did not develop, over
6 years ago, only you and other's close to the process could possibly
know - or not for that matter.

Would repeated claims of Carl's not getting sour without adequate
documentation so it can be duplicated and we can all get a non sour
Carl's qualify as trollism? Maybe cats would know.

Samartha




--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Samartha Deva wrote:
>
> ... Maybe cats would know.
>
I asked Ticker and she just laughed at me and said "Just because
you humans can think and speak in metaphors doesn't mean that you
should." I have no idea at all what she meant by that. Perhaps
she is back imatating the Greek answer creature from Delphi.

Anyway, it is as Samartha says, Carl's, if you let it progress
down the fermentation cycle will get sour. Cold, cool, or warm,
it will sour. You can taste it or measure it with PH strips or
meters. Bread dough is little more than thick starter, so it too
will get sour if left fermenting long enough.

Carl's will make a vigorous starter culture that will raise the
bread in a shorter period of time than sluggish cultures. This
leads to what Dick Adams has pointed out. It is possible for
people to see their bread as ready to bake before the
fermentation has progressed to a point where "sour" is as
prominate a taste as some may desire. I don't see this as a
problem. If you do, than you need to change your procedures to
get the dough further down the fermentation path before baking.
(see my new book for details) ;>)

Starter can revive from dried start in various ways that are not
what you would normally expect. Almost always they correct
themselves with a few feedings. However, I imagine it is
possible for a sample of start to produce a stable culture that
was atypical. Perhaps Marcella would be willing to send for a
new sample and revive it and compare it with her existing culture
to see if that has happened in her case.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Dick Adams wrote:
>
>
> ...One persistent myth, possibly based on fact,...

One nice thing about myths, if we don't like one, we can always
make one up that better fits our personal world view. Does that
make us mythical creatures?

>
> I continue to feel that cold processing of dough, if not for convenience,
> is an affectation.

Personally, I am prefer room temperature on the thought that for
most of the time that humans have been making bread, they did not
have the means to significantly alter the temperatures in their
environment. I should be able to cope as well as my ancesters
with the demands of breadmaking.

On the reality side, it doen't matter a whit what we *feel* about
things, chilling dough *is* an integral and legitimate part of
some process procedures.

Regards,

Charles


--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

In article >,
Samartha Deva > wrote:

> Marcella Tracy Peek wrote:
>
> > Since when did I get troll status? ;-)
> >
> > There are a couple of us whmo I wouldn't call trolls in this group who
> > fail dismally to get sour bread from Carls starter. Beats me why.
>
> About 2 1/2 years ago, you posted:
>
> > > I have had Carls starter for 4 years or so and it's never been sour for
> > > me. Great rise, good flavor but never sour. Others here on the list
> > > state it's very sour for them. Dunno why....we've compaired baking notes
> > > and when I follow theirs exactly mine still isn't sour. I recently got a
> > > grape starter from a class I took in Monterey and that makes fairly sour
> > > bread. I know there are lots of other commercial starters available that
> > > can get you the sour flavor.
> > >
> > > marcella
>
> So, it looks you have this "Carl's" for well over 6 years and it's not
> getting sour.

Nope. The new starter had a better flavor and performs well so I tossed
the Carl's version way back then.

>
> It's probably all too well engrained by now.
>
> Frankly, I don't want to know why you chose to do it that way (sticking
> with a "non-sour-performing" starter), what the underlying reason for
> this is and what exactly happened over 6 years ago, when you got the
> Carl's and something must have gotten into the wrong track but someone's
> similar experience posted must have nudged me into doing this:

Well. It made nice bread, biscuits, pancakes and onion rings. They
tasted good, just not sour. And, I happen to like the tangy flavor at
times. So, I muddled along trying various recipes and techniques. I
bought the Goldrush stuff, but could not bear to bake with something
that smelled like baby vomit, so I used the Carl's starter until I found
something else I preferred.

Hey, when you're a beginner you only know so much ;-)
>
> http://samartha.net/images/SD/BYDATE/02-01-26/
>
> You can bet on having the required organisms for sourness in the powder
> the Carl's people sent you. What happened that it did not develop, over
> 6 years ago, only you and other's close to the process could possibly
> know - or not for that matter.

Was it a fatal flaw of not adding sugar or potato water? I just do
plain water and bread flour. I've heard others here say they just do
plain water and flour too yet achieve sour bread, so I think it's
something else, but then again....

marcella

Mike wrote:

<< We keep the walk-in at 55 to 60 and use it as a retarder rather than as a
true
refrigerator. We think that keeping it at 34 (or other more traditional
refrigerator temps) is just too cold. >>

Charles added:
<<SF gets warm in the day, but when the sun goes down and the sea
breeze comes in off the bay, it gets colds right away. The
coldest I have ever been was in SF in July. The climate is
perfect for baking sourdough. The baker bakes his morning bread
and then makes the dough for the next day. it is warm in the
afternoon to get the dough going. Then the loaves are formed and
set aside to rise. The cool of the evening provides a perfect
natural retarding temperature so the dough can mature at a slow
pace overnight and develop flavor and sour before the morning
bake.>>

Ed responds (a bit late):
I know I've said this before, but the Bodin bakery deliberately rests their San
Francisco sourdough loaves at 55F for 11 to 16 hours (in humid environment)
before a final proof at 90F. I can't imagine they do it it just as a good
marketing tool - there is a lot of equipment and captial outlay for that
operation. The 11-16 hours is consistent with Charles remarks about warm days
cool nights. And, their bread tastes like, well, San Francisco sourdough.
The loaves I make that have rested in the cooler for a half a day at 50-55F
have tasted better than the quick loaves. I still need to try the Adams slow
rise at warm temperature for flavor comparisons. Last attempt with shortcuts
and interruptions didn't work.

Ed

Well,
just a side note:

when I first met Dick years ago, and we talked via E-mail about how sour
he can get his bread ; He sent me a piece of sourdough bread made with the
Oregon Trail starter. A beautiful piece of bread with great texture and
crumb and so damn sour I thought it unpalatable! So I know that the Oregon
Trail Starter can get really sour .....
By the way, I even had to send him a piece of my sourdough bread to prove
to him how nice it came out. I like my bread with a sour tang not one
that makes the lips pucker !

Joan



"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message
news:mailman.18.1071587258.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...

> ... San Francisco style sourdough ... walk-in at 55 to 60 ... use it as
> retarder (Friday --> Monday) ... (bread) wasn't just sour, it was
> also good.

I think you can get the same effect faster at higher temperature.

Charles Perry uses the same sort of trick, but to prevent his bread
from getting sour. But I think it is just cold overnight.

> Sadly, it had been in the retarder too long, so the loaves weren't
> very pretty.

Not pretty how? I can get ugly bread in less than a total day, but
at higher process temperatures. And without any retarder at all.
I mean the kind where the gluten tears

> neighbor .. said he'd pass it on to his wife... 10 minutes later he
> was back saying he was "in love". I'll just assume he meant the
> bread.

He could have meant most anything. Maybe that he had nothing
good to say about the bread, and preferred to talk about his wife,
something like the TV ad person who chooses to talk about the
good news about his car insurance premium.

You seem to be attempting to credibilize the OWT about cold
"proofing" making for sour bread.

It was just recently reported that sour bread is made by using
a relatively small inoculation of culture. What do you think about
that? That thesis was attributed to Ed Wood.

We should really write down all of the things that have been proposed
to make the bread sour, and examine them one by one. For the
title, in our 101 series -- "101 ways to make sourdough bread sour".

---
DickA

"Joan" > wrote in message =
nk.net...

> I even had to send (DickA) a piece of my sourdough bread to prove
> to him how nice it came out. I like my bread with a sour tang=20
> not one that makes the lips pucker!

You sent pictures as well, and have shown pictures at your web site
and at the CarlsFriends web site. There was a time when people were
sending one another samples smaller than whole loaves, and that is still
done occasionally. A slice in a proper mailer can travel fast as =
first-class
mail. But pictures tell quite a lot of the story about a person's =
bread.

http://www.pipeline.com/~rosskat/wizzi.html

Hey, what happened to the photos? Well these (below) are still up:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/jo.../banneton.html

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/joanpics/joan.html

You were in fact one of the early adopters of photographic communication
as well as bread exchange among r.f.s. posters, if not the earliest.

Now that you are back, why don't you stay around for a while?

---
DickA