I have finally gotten my home made starter to work. It is nice and bubbly
and frothy before I make the dough. I use King Arthur bread flour, but when
I make the dough and let it rise, it tends to flatten out and spread,
resulting in rather flat but good sourdough bread. I have tried adding more
flour assuming that the dough is too wet, but that didn't seem to help. The
basic recipe I follow is from Crust and Crumb for San Francisco Sourdough.
It is reproduced below.

Perhaps I am letting it rise too long? The bread has nice push when I put
it in the oven, but it still ends up rather flat.

I could be that the dough is too wet because it is not perfectly clear to me
how wet the starter should be and how firm the firm starter should be.

The recipie I follow:

Firm starter:

2C barm starter (rather wet and bubbly and frothy, mmm....)
2C flour

Mix ingredients. Let the firm starter rise for about 4 hours then let it
sit overnight in the refrigerator.

2 C Firm starter
6 C Flour
1 T salt
1 1/4 t sugar
2 C cool water

Roughly, I mix the ingredients, make sure dough passes the window pane test,
and let rise for about 4 hours at room temperature. As the recipie says, it
doesn't rise much up to now. Then I form into loaves, let rise another 4
hours, during which the dough increases in size by about 50%, but tends to
flatten. I then bake at 475F for about 5 minutes, turn temp down to 450 for
another 20-30. But the damage is done before it gets into the oven.

Thanks for any feedback,

Dave

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 15:10:02 -0500, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>Perhaps I am letting it rise too long?

Hi Dave,

That would certainly be my take...

Experiment with a shorter rise and I suspect all will be well...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

in article , Dave Bazell at
wrote on 12/2/04 1:10 pm:

> I have finally gotten my home made starter to work. It is nice and bubbly
> and frothy before I make the dough. I use King Arthur bread flour, but when
> I make the dough and let it rise, it tends to flatten out and spread,
> resulting in rather flat but good sourdough bread. I have tried adding more
> flour assuming that the dough is too wet, but that didn't seem to help. The
> basic recipe I follow is from Crust and Crumb for San Francisco Sourdough.
> It is reproduced below.
>
> Perhaps I am letting it rise too long? The bread has nice push when I put
> it in the oven, but it still ends up rather flat.
>
> I could be that the dough is too wet because it is not perfectly clear to me
> how wet the starter should be and how firm the firm starter should be.
>
> The recipie I follow:
>
> Firm starter:
>
> 2C barm starter (rather wet and bubbly and frothy, mmm....)
> 2C flour
>
> Mix ingredients. Let the firm starter rise for about 4 hours then let it
> sit overnight in the refrigerator.
>
> 2 C Firm starter
> 6 C Flour
> 1 T salt
> 1 1/4 t sugar
> 2 C cool water
>
> Roughly, I mix the ingredients, make sure dough passes the window pane test,
> and let rise for about 4 hours at room temperature. As the recipie says, it
> doesn't rise much up to now. Then I form into loaves, let rise another 4
> hours, during which the dough increases in size by about 50%, but tends to
> flatten. I then bake at 475F for about 5 minutes, turn temp down to 450 for
> another 20-30. But the damage is done before it gets into the oven.
>
> Thanks for any feedback,
>
> Dave
>
>
What are you rising the dough in? If you use a basket or bowl and turn it
out and slash immediately and then into the oven it doesn't get much chance
to spread out? Ellen

> What are you rising the dough in? If you use a basket or bowl and turn it
> out and slash immediately and then into the oven it doesn't get much
chance
> to spread out? Ellen
>

I just let it rise on parchment. I could try a bowl or something, but I
worry about it sticking. How do you handle that? Even if I use cornmeal on
a tray, it sticks if I let it rise for hours. That's why I use the
parchment. Can't use parchment in a bowl or basket, can I?

Dave

"Dave Bazell" > wrote in message =
...

> The bread has nice push when I put it in the oven, but it still ends =
up rather flat.

> [ ... ] (recipie)

> Thanks for any feedback

Here is a suggestion. Find some one who has posted some photos of =
loaves
you would like to reproduce, and try following the procedure that person
suggests.

For instance, here is a page that looks good to me:

http://www.cookingwithcrack.com/bread/sequence2/

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

in article , Dave Bazell at
wrote on 12/2/04 3:00 pm:

>> What are you rising the dough in? If you use a basket or bowl and turn it
>> out and slash immediately and then into the oven it doesn't get much
> chance
>> to spread out? Ellen
>>
>
> I just let it rise on parchment. I could try a bowl or something, but I
> worry about it sticking. How do you handle that? Even if I use cornmeal on
> a tray, it sticks if I let it rise for hours. That's why I use the
> parchment. Can't use parchment in a bowl or basket, can I?
>
> Dave
>
>
I use baskets of the shape I want, well floured ( rice flour works even
better) with the dough formed and placed in it. If I am really worried, I
use a linen or half linen half cotton tea towel well floured to line the
basket. This makes it very easy to turn out on to the cornmeal coated
peel, slash and immediately put into the preheated oven on a kiln stone. If
you really jerk the peel it slides right onto the stone. I have never had
one stick, but it doesn't sit there for long. If I am leaving it for more
than a few minutes ( which of course I usually am) I tie the whole thing up
in a plastic grocery bag so that it doesn't dry out.
Ellen

I think the suggestions about the floured baskets are right on the money,
but it is also true that this recipe makes a pretty soft dough. 6 cups of
flour is about 24 oz, and two cups of water weighs about 16 oz, so that
means your water weights about 67% of the total flour. Many bread recipes
would have nearly two pounds of flour for that much water.

The starter would reduce that percentage somewhat depending on how "firm" it
is.

I'll bet your finished bread has large, irregular holes. I happen to like
that myself, so be happy.

If you'll take everyone's advice and proof (final rise) your bread in the
floured basket, promptly turn it out, slash and put it in the oven, it will
stand up a little bit better. But it will still spread a bit just because
it's a soft dough. Try making some different recipes. You'll see that breads
come in countless styles, each with its own characteristics.

How do you like "Crust and Crumb?" I've long had my eye on it, but my
bookstore never has it so I'd have to order it blind.

Paul

On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 17:00:27 -0500, "Dave Bazell" >
wrote:

>> What are you rising the dough in? If you use a basket or bowl and turn it
>> out and slash immediately and then into the oven it doesn't get much
>chance
>> to spread out? Ellen
>>
>
>I just let it rise on parchment. I could try a bowl or something, but I
>worry about it sticking. How do you handle that? Even if I use cornmeal on
>a tray, it sticks if I let it rise for hours. That's why I use the
>parchment. Can't use parchment in a bowl or basket, can I?
>
>Dave
>

Hi Dave,

I had misinterpreted your earlier post...

The (French) traditional approach is this:

The dough is prepared, the loaf formed, and then allowed to rise in
fabric, usually linen. That can be done in several ways: Fabric lined
baskets called "bannetons" are available in many shapes or for long
loaves (such as baguettes) one can set up what is called a "couche."
That is just a folded piece of linen that hold the breads shape. As
was mentioned, in any case, some flour on the fabric (rice flour works
extremely well) will keep the dough from sticking.

Whatever the approach you might choose, there is a common technique:

The dough is allowed to rise "upside down." That means that the
position of the dough while rising is not the position of the dough
when id goes into the oven.

Suppose you use a linen lined basket.

When the dough has risen to the point that it is ready to bake, you
would gently invert the basket onto some intermediate flat surface
(called a peel). Once on the peel, the dough is slashed, and then, it
is quickly slid into the oven. Typically, the peel is lightly cover
with something to prevent the sticking of the dough. Cornmeal works
well for this purpose.

I hope that these comments are of some use, and wish you the best with
your efforts,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

> I make this bread all the time. It's a slack dough. The baskets will
> work for two reasons.

> One, the flour/cloth combination will gently remove some moisture from
> the dough's surface. Toughens it up a bit so it holds shape better.
> You have to slash it or it will tear.

> Two, the hot oven (at least 450) will spring the dough quickly. It
> will move up, away from the stone or baking sheet, not out.

The following link is the best place to buy inexpensive willow
bannetons with liners. If you need them.

http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml

Good luck!

Dave,

Couple of points:

If the previous poster is right and your dough is 67 percent and you're
using the bread flour you should get a rise. I use bread flour at 74 percent
hydration (water as percentage of flour) and get a rise. I think the
problem is in your rising times and starter and so you need to experiment. I
find it very hard to duplicate sourdough recipes since temperature/type of
starter vary from house to house.

1. Try using the starter once it's doubled in size and is frothy. Forget the
retard in the refrigerator for now. That cold air slows down the activity
and then it's got to get going again once you mix the dough.

2. Mix the dough and on the first rise cut your rising time until the dough
has just doubled in size. Don't let is rise so far that the surface gets
wavy like like flabby skin. The dough should be taught on this rise - it
should look like a surface that is tight from expansion - bakers talk about
the look and feel of a baby's bottom!

3. Try the baskets but if you want but again rising time is key. Try to
under-proof the loaf (less than full rise). You should then get oven spring
when you put it into the oven and get a blowout (a break in the crust) as
the yeast tries to expand. You can work back from there, increasing your
rising time to prevent a blow out but still getting the oven spring.

As an example, I'm using a very active sourdough I've been using for a few
years. It can double after feeding in 4 fours. The first rise takes only 2.5
hours, and the second rise 45 minutes to 1-1/4 hours and then it's into the
oven. If I let it go longer, the yeast activity dissipates and the bread
doesn't get an oven spring. But these times are far less than the recipe (3
hours first rise, 3 hours second rise). I sent the same starter to a friend
in Colorado, and he eventually found his ideal first rise took 6 hours! So
it really depends on the environment.



on 2/12/04 3:10 PM, Dave Bazell wrote:

> I have finally gotten my home made starter to work. It is nice and bubbly
> and frothy before I make the dough. I use King Arthur bread flour, but when
> I make the dough and let it rise, it tends to flatten out and spread,
> resulting in rather flat but good sourdough bread. I have tried adding more
> flour assuming that the dough is too wet, but that didn't seem to help. The
> basic recipe I follow is from Crust and Crumb for San Francisco Sourdough.
> It is reproduced below.
>
> Perhaps I am letting it rise too long? The bread has nice push when I put
> it in the oven, but it still ends up rather flat.
>
> I could be that the dough is too wet because it is not perfectly clear to me
> how wet the starter should be and how firm the firm starter should be.
>
> The recipie I follow:
>
> Firm starter:
>
> 2C barm starter (rather wet and bubbly and frothy, mmm....)
> 2C flour
>
> Mix ingredients. Let the firm starter rise for about 4 hours then let it
> sit overnight in the refrigerator.
>
> 2 C Firm starter
> 6 C Flour
> 1 T salt
> 1 1/4 t sugar
> 2 C cool water
>
> Roughly, I mix the ingredients, make sure dough passes the window pane test,
> and let rise for about 4 hours at room temperature. As the recipie says, it
> doesn't rise much up to now. Then I form into loaves, let rise another 4
> hours, during which the dough increases in size by about 50%, but tends to
> flatten. I then bake at 475F for about 5 minutes, turn temp down to 450 for
> another 20-30. But the damage is done before it gets into the oven.
>
> Thanks for any feedback,
>
> Dave
>
>

"Samuel Fromartz" > wrote in message=20
...

> If the previous poster is right and your dough is 67 percent and =
you're
using the bread flour you should get a rise.

That poster assumed 4 oz. per cup for 6 cups of flour, and 16 oz. of =
water.
My flour (today) weighs 5.5 oz. per cup (cup =3D 8 fl. oz.), so I would =
have
a "hydration" of 48%. How would that rise, d'ya s'pose? Well, I =
ignored
the 14% moisture reported for the flour by the mfgr., which actually =
might
have changed some in storage. =20

> I find it very hard to duplicate sourdough recipes since =
temperature/type=20
> of starter vary from house to house.

Houses are usually around 70=B0F., except for some of us poor people /
nature enthusiasts who don't air condition in the summertime. Starters,
of course, can vary from dead to vibrant.

> [ ... ] (Some good advice deleted)

> The first rise takes only 2.5 hours, and the second rise 45 minutes=20
> to 1-1/4 hours and then it's into the oven.

If at room temperature, that is not very long. Is the bread sour?=20

> If I let it go longer, the yeast activity dissipates and the bread=20
> doesn't get an oven spring.=20

Another possibility is that the dough loses its ability to hold gas.

Well, the thread-head poster reported that he passes the window-
pane test, so you guys are probably out of my league and I should
bow out of this discussion.

---
DickA

"Dave Bazell" > wrote in message
...
> I have finally gotten my home made starter to work. It is nice and bubbly
> and frothy before I make the dough. I use King Arthur bread flour, but
when
> I make the dough and let it rise, it tends to flatten out and spread,
> resulting in rather flat but good sourdough bread. I have tried adding
more
> flour assuming that the dough is too wet, but that didn't seem to help.
The
> basic recipe I follow is from Crust and Crumb for San Francisco Sourdough.
> It is reproduced below.
>
> Perhaps I am letting it rise too long? The bread has nice push when I put
> it in the oven, but it still ends up rather flat.
>
> I could be that the dough is too wet because it is not perfectly clear to
me
> how wet the starter should be and how firm the firm starter should be.
>
> The recipie I follow:
>
> Firm starter:
>
> 2C barm starter (rather wet and bubbly and frothy, mmm....)
> 2C flour
>
> Mix ingredients. Let the firm starter rise for about 4 hours then let it
> sit overnight in the refrigerator.
>
> 2 C Firm starter
> 6 C Flour
> 1 T salt
> 1 1/4 t sugar
> 2 C cool water
>
> Roughly, I mix the ingredients, make sure dough passes the window pane
test,
> and let rise for about 4 hours at room temperature. As the recipie says,
it
> doesn't rise much up to now. Then I form into loaves, let rise another 4
> hours, during which the dough increases in size by about 50%, but tends to
> flatten. I then bake at 475F for about 5 minutes, turn temp down to 450
for
> another 20-30. But the damage is done before it gets into the oven.
>
> Thanks for any feedback,
>
> Dave
There is one other possibility that has not been addressed. . .have you
formed a good, tight outer surface when shaping the loaf before you do the
final rise? If the outside isn't tight, the loaf will slump no matter how
good everything else is. This is a lot more important when doing free-form
loaves than when doing pan breads.
Janet

"Dave Bazell" > wrote in message >...
> I have finally gotten my home made starter to work. It is nice and bubbly
> and frothy before I make the dough. I use King Arthur bread flour, but when
> I make the dough and let it rise, it tends to flatten out and spread,
> resulting in rather flat but good sourdough bread. I have tried adding more
> flour assuming that the dough is too wet, but that didn't seem to help. The
> basic recipe I follow is from Crust and Crumb for San Francisco Sourdough.
> It is reproduced below.
>
> Perhaps I am letting it rise too long? The bread has nice push when I put
> it in the oven, but it still ends up rather flat.
>
> I could be that the dough is too wet because it is not perfectly clear to me
> how wet the starter should be and how firm the firm starter should be.
>
> The recipie I follow:
>
> Firm starter:
>
> 2C barm starter (rather wet and bubbly and frothy, mmm....)
> 2C flour
>
> Mix ingredients. Let the firm starter rise for about 4 hours then let it
> sit overnight in the refrigerator.
>
> 2 C Firm starter
> 6 C Flour
> 1 T salt
> 1 1/4 t sugar
> 2 C cool water
>
> Roughly, I mix the ingredients, make sure dough passes the window pane test,
> and let rise for about 4 hours at room temperature. As the recipie says, it
> doesn't rise much up to now. Then I form into loaves, let rise another 4
> hours, during which the dough increases in size by about 50%, but tends to
> flatten. I then bake at 475F for about 5 minutes, turn temp down to 450 for
> another 20-30. But the damage is done before it gets into the oven.
>
> Thanks for any feedback,
>
> Dave
That looks interesting Dave.....
But it sounds like a young dough to me as well as the dough may have
colder temperature than normal.
But is the dough soft and sticky? If that is the case you may have to
reduce the water absorption to produce a slighly firmer dough so that
it will have less tendency of flattening when proofed.
What aggravates the situation is you tolerated what the author said
that the bulk fermentation of the mixed dough does not rise much. but
just Scale it up and mold. From the point of a baker that is wrong.
A dough regardless if its bakers yeast raised or sourdough should
equally rise well during the bulk fermentation and in proofing.
We never know what is the ambient condition when you made that dough
was the room cool( winter time) while the author of that book may have
made the same dough during the time that the room temperature is
warmer.( simmer).Therefore the timing stipulated should not be
followed

What does the author mean that it does not rise much according to his
expectation( what does less rising means to him- maybe its just 80
% less than normal or something similar;but you just think the same
even if the degree of rise is les than hafl..
.. You had a lot of time in your hands therefore you can extend the
fermentation if the bulk fermented dough still looks slow. You can
also punch it and allow it to ferment until the whole dough behaviour
appears lively.In another way you can remix with with flour and water
and let it rise again until its looks lively before you prepare the
dough.
If you just allowed it rise longer in order to gain maturity by the
time the dough was moulded and proofed the tendency for the flattening
is minimised. And the loaf will appear bold when baked.

Another cause of the discrepancy of the procedure is the author of
the book may have used a properly aged flour while you are possibly
using a newly milled flour.I am not aware if your flour contains
vitamin C in it already. But if it contains already you may have to
look at your procedure carefully and re-evaluate.your methods

The timing of 4 hours bulk fermentation and 4 hours proofing is normal
for pure sourdough if the both the dough activity in the bulk
fermentation and p roofing are equivalent.But if the first part is
slow you may need to let it ferment until sufficiently active before
you divide it to pieces for moulding.
In some sourdough they just mix the dough divide mould and proof
usually from 7-9 hours.That procedure tends to result in a flattish
appearing loaf than if the dough was allowed to ferment then divided
and p roofed just liked what you had done.
If your conditions happen in the bakery
and the dough appears flattish if a certain baker ( lives to its name
as making baker's yeast free sourdough) he can add some vitamin C
during the dough preparation( of the succeeding batch) for security
reasons. You can do the same with you trials. Add a pinch or two to
the dough preparation stage.

Blindly following the recipe without using common sense usually result
in failures. Never try to compare the idealized condition that the
book author tries to explain his timing. You may have to omit some
procedures that is hampering your dough performance.
He may recommend refrigeration because in his baking condition was
warm that is why he had to use cold water and subject the dough to
refrigeration.
One thing that surprises me if the starter was under refrigeration it
should be cold enough that even using room temperature flour and water
will produce good results.
You also indicated that the proofing volume was only 50% of the
original dough volume which is a sign of sluggishness. A good
sourdough (even if traditionally made will increase three to three
and a half of this original volume when baked. Yours, as you stated
increased only by 50% that shows sluggishness ( maybe brought by cold
dough temperature that slowed down the proofing and fermentation rate.
A cold dough also tends to flatten during rising.
Check the dough temperature of your product when you divide it into
units. The temperature should record with in the range of 23 to 27
degrees C(74-82 degrees F). You may have to use the upper range if
your room is cold ( therefore adding part (luke warm water ,but you
may have to use the lower values during summer.(or you can use cool
water.
(In another way I was also thinking that you are using cold or iced
water which is wrong.)
Ideally the sponge should exhibit the same temperature range.
Further proper moulding ( tight skin)and preferably proofing it in
couche will enable the maintenace of the desired shape as the sides of
the linen cloth will assist in promoting a better symmetrical loaf..
But if you had none of this implements then do it your own way first
so that you can understand more what is going on with your dough.
You had a lot of options to apply here in order to obtain the desired
loaf symmetry.
Roy

Why don't you people make your bread in bread pans?

It would save you loads of trouble!

Just put the dough in the pan, let it rise, and bake it.

---
DickA

in article , Dick
Adams at wrote on 14/2/04 9:06 am:

> Why don't you people make your bread in bread pans?
>
> It would save you loads of trouble!
>
> Just put the dough in the pan, let it rise, and bake it.
>
> ---
> DickA
>
free form loaves have more of the crust that I want, pan breads do not.
that's my reason ( aside from looks, of course) Ellen

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 16:06:17 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>Why don't you people make your bread in bread pans?
>
>It would save you loads of trouble!
>
>Just put the dough in the pan, let it rise, and bake it.
I eat my bread. Don't show it around . And have to agree with
you here. Pan bread rises as well as, and tastes as good as free form
bread, and is much neater for making my cheese sandwiches.
I advise teflon 2 pans.
FWIW
>
>---
>DickA

"Ellen Wickberg" > wrote in message
...
> in article , Dick
> Adams at wrote on 14/2/04 9:06 am:
>
> > Why don't you people make your bread in bread pans?
> >
> > It would save you loads of trouble!
> >
> > Just put the dough in the pan, let it rise, and bake it.
> >
> > ---
> > DickA
> >
> free form loaves have more of the crust that I want, pan breads do not.
> that's my reason ( aside from looks, of course) Ellen

I don't know what would happen if you > > Just put the dough in the pan, let
it rise, and bake it. >
>
and then "try" to dump it out onto a stone or baking sheet. Has anyone ever
tried this?
If you have, at about what stage in the baking would one do this?

Dee

"Ellen Wickberg" > wrote in message =
...

> ... free form loaves have more of the crust that I want, pan breads do =
not.

That's just plain silly, Ellen Wickberg. Pan bread can have almost any =
kind of=20
crust you want it to have, even on the sides and bottom. For one thing, =
you=20
can depan it, and bake it some more. Or bake it quite hot. Bag it =
afterward
for soggy crust, let it dry out when cooling for crunchy. Regards the =
steamed
crust everybody wants, nobody who does not have the right kind of oven =
is=20
really getting it without some superhuman effort. Kenneth has got the =
right kind of
oven, according to what he has said here, but I do not think his wife =
will let him
use the steam.

> that's my reason =20

Does not seem to be a good reason. You just want to do it like you =
always have
done it. Quite possibly it is the way your mother did it.

> ( aside from looks, of course) =20

Well, we still do not know what Ellen bread looks like -- do you suppose
you could show us?

(Here is some nice crust
http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/wa...ebread.html=20
for instance, but just one variety, of many possible.)

---
DickA

William Waller wrote:
>
> > I make this bread all the time. It's a slack dough. The baskets will
> > work for two reasons.
>
> > One, the flour/cloth combination will gently remove some moisture from
> > the dough's surface. Toughens it up a bit so it holds shape better.
> > You have to slash it or it will tear.
>
> > Two, the hot oven (at least 450) will spring the dough quickly. It
> > will move up, away from the stone or baking sheet, not out.
>
> The following link is the best place to buy inexpensive willow
> bannetons with liners. If you need them.
>
> http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml
>
> Good luck!

Saw that - too small, need 4 lb loaf baskets. Also, experimenting with
plastic baskets, similar to the one's shown on this page, appear to be
doing better than the wooden one's.

Morealso, looks like the wooden one's are coming from China - so $17.- a
pop (I don't call this inexpensive) and seeing several dozen of baskets
in bakeries makes me guess that there should be another, cheaper source.


Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:40:25 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:

>William Waller wrote:
>>
>> > I make this bread all the time. It's a slack dough. The baskets will
>> > work for two reasons.
>>
>> > One, the flour/cloth combination will gently remove some moisture from
>> > the dough's surface. Toughens it up a bit so it holds shape better.
>> > You have to slash it or it will tear.
>>
>> > Two, the hot oven (at least 450) will spring the dough quickly. It
>> > will move up, away from the stone or baking sheet, not out.
>>
>> The following link is the best place to buy inexpensive willow
>> bannetons with liners. If you need them.
>>
>> http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml
>>
>> Good luck!
>
>Saw that - too small, need 4 lb loaf baskets. Also, experimenting with
>plastic baskets, similar to the one's shown on this page, appear to be
>doing better than the wooden one's.

I have had both and finally got rid of the plastic ones as to, they
were more trouble than they were worth. I deflated too many loaves in
the plastic. Perhaps they are better for denser doughs than I usually
play with, though..

>Morealso, looks like the wooden one's are coming from China - so $17.- a
>pop (I don't call this inexpensive) and seeing several dozen of baskets
>in bakeries makes me guess that there should be another, cheaper source.
>
>
Tell me what you make of these, then, Samartha. You will be better
able to delve into the regular pages far better than I. They sound
fascinating, though I have a feeling it would not be easy to get them
to send a couple over here.
http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...single&lang=en

Boron

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:34:16 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:40:25 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:
>
>>William Waller wrote:
>>>
>>> > I make this bread all the time. It's a slack dough. The baskets will
>>> > work for two reasons.
>>>
>>> > One, the flour/cloth combination will gently remove some moisture from
>>> > the dough's surface. Toughens it up a bit so it holds shape better.
>>> > You have to slash it or it will tear.
>>>
>>> > Two, the hot oven (at least 450) will spring the dough quickly. It
>>> > will move up, away from the stone or baking sheet, not out.
>>>
>>> The following link is the best place to buy inexpensive willow
>>> bannetons with liners. If you need them.
>>>
>>> http://www.tmbbaking.com/baskets.shtml
>>>
>>> Good luck!
>>
>>Saw that - too small, need 4 lb loaf baskets. Also, experimenting with
>>plastic baskets, similar to the one's shown on this page, appear to be
>>doing better than the wooden one's.
>
>I have had both and finally got rid of the plastic ones as to, they
>were more trouble than they were worth. I deflated too many loaves in
>the plastic. Perhaps they are better for denser doughs than I usually
>play with, though..
>
>>Morealso, looks like the wooden one's are coming from China - so $17.- a
>>pop (I don't call this inexpensive) and seeing several dozen of baskets
>>in bakeries makes me guess that there should be another, cheaper source.
>>
>>
>Tell me what you make of these, then, Samartha. You will be better
>able to delve into the regular pages far better than I. They sound
>fascinating, though I have a feeling it would not be easy to get them
>to send a couple over here.
>http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...single&lang=en
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

I suspect that they would be happy to send you a small order. They
have an order form that defaults to U.S. You might want to check if
you are tempted...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:38:59 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>I suspect that they would be happy to send you a small order. They
>have an order form that defaults to U.S. You might want to check if
>you are tempted...
>
>All the best,

Hi again Boron,

I may have clicked (slightly) too soon...

They say on their site:

In general we produce Bannetons for bakeries or baking factories
(orders of 20 pieces or more). We also deliver smaller quantities to
private individuals. Please note that due to logistical and commercial
reasons the minimum order amount is 5 pieces.
Especially to the US, higher transportation costs increase the price
of the bannetons substantially. Please keep that in mind when
ordering.
The bannetons made of wood pulp are even better suited for private
individuals (home bakers). This is explained as follows:

better heat absorption is needed as most homebakers do not have a
proofing cabinet
it is easier to extract the dough as it doesn't stick to the creases
of the wood pulp bannetons, unlike those made of cane
better moisture absorption by the banneton (giving it back to the
doughg as needed) improves the dough rising.
easier cleaning.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:38:59 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:34:16 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 17:40:25 -0700, Samartha Deva
> wrote:
>>
>
>>
>>>Morealso, looks like the wooden one's are coming from China - so $17.- a
>>>pop (I don't call this inexpensive) and seeing several dozen of baskets
>>>in bakeries makes me guess that there should be another, cheaper source.
>>>
>>>
>>Tell me what you make of these, then, Samartha. You will be better
>>able to delve into the regular pages far better than I. They sound
>>fascinating, though I have a feeling it would not be easy to get them
>>to send a couple over here.
>>http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...single&lang=en
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>I suspect that they would be happy to send you a small order. They
>have an order form that defaults to U.S. You might want to check if
>you are tempted...
>
>All the best,


Oh, I am sorely tempted, but I am hoping that Samartha's expertise not
only in bread, but in German, too, will help to let me know if these
products appear to him as nice as they do to me.I have gone through
the English site, but there is more there on the Deutsche part.

Boron

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:44:22 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>
>
>Oh, I am sorely tempted, but I am hoping that Samartha's expertise not
>only in bread, but in German, too, will help to let me know if these
>products appear to him as nice as they do to me.I have gone through
>the English site, but there is more there on the Deutsche part.
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

If you might be interested, I would consider splitting an order with
you. Where on the planet are you located?

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:46:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>Where on the planet are you located?

I suppose that I should have mentioned that I am in New Hampshire,
U.S.A.

Thanks,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:41:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:38:59 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:
>>
>>Hi Boron,
>>
>>I suspect that they would be happy to send you a small order. They
>>have an order form that defaults to U.S. You might want to check if
>>you are tempted...
>>
>>All the best,
>
>Hi again Boron,
>
>I may have clicked (slightly) too soon...
>
>They say on their site:
>
>In general we produce Bannetons for bakeries or baking factories
>(orders of 20 pieces or more). We also deliver smaller quantities to
>private individuals. Please note that due to logistical and commercial
>reasons the minimum order amount is 5 pieces.
>Especially to the US, higher transportation costs increase the price
>of the bannetons substantially. Please keep that in mind when
>ordering.
>The bannetons made of wood pulp are even better suited for private
>individuals (home bakers). This is explained as follows:
>
>better heat absorption is needed as most homebakers do not have a
>proofing cabinet
>it is easier to extract the dough as it doesn't stick to the creases
>of the wood pulp bannetons, unlike those made of cane
>better moisture absorption by the banneton (giving it back to the
>doughg as needed) improves the dough rising.
>easier cleaning.
>
>All the best,

Thanks. I appreciate it. They give all their costs in Euros, and even
though they mention the US & higher, they also mention additional
charges due to currency exchange fees. I was hoping there was some
relatively simple way of doing it all that perhaps I missed. Once all
that is added in,. I think Sur la Table might be cheaper!

Boron

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:50:26 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>Thanks. I appreciate it. They give all their costs in Euros, and even
>though they mention the US & higher, they also mention additional
>charges due to currency exchange fees. I was hoping there was some
>relatively simple way of doing it all that perhaps I missed. Once all
>that is added in,. I think Sur la Table might be cheaper!
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

A few thoughts:

Are you tempted by the "wood pulp" version, or the "cane?"

The wood pulp stuff is new to me. I have not seen anything like it
before. The cane baskets are very familiar. I have only one, but I
know that there are many retailers in the US. If you would like
sources for the cane type I can find some.

If you are curious about the wood pulp type (as I am) I would be happy
to contact the manufacturer to see if there is someone in the U.S. (I
am assuming here that you are located in the U.S.) who imports them.
Of course, you are correct. Importing these thing in twos and threes
is likely to be very costly. If someone is bringing them in by the
hundreds, the costs per piece are radically diminished. The company is
clearly rather large. It would not be surprising if they have agents
in other countries.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:46:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:44:22 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>Oh, I am sorely tempted, but I am hoping that Samartha's expertise not
>>only in bread, but in German, too, will help to let me know if these
>>products appear to him as nice as they do to me.I have gone through
>>the English site, but there is more there on the Deutsche part.
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>If you might be interested, I would consider splitting an order with
>you. Where on the planet are you located?


Thank you. You are most kind to offer. I am in New Jersey, not too far
from Barry, actually.

I am awaiting a 3 piece banneton order right now from a company in
Florida, so I am not immediately in the market (assuming my order is
successful). While I was looking for a supplier last month, I
stumbled upon the German site, but felt the costs would be prohibitive
by the time everything was added in. Opportunity presented itself to
mention the site here tonight and so I did, wondering what other
would think, such as Samartha and yourself and the other
"bread-wonders" we have as contributors.

Boron

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:47:30 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:46:38 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>Where on the planet are you located?
>
>I suppose that I should have mentioned that I am in New Hampshire,
>U.S.A.
>
>Thanks,

Hey! Some primary, eh?

Boron

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:59:26 -0500, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 20:50:26 -0500, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>Thanks. I appreciate it. They give all their costs in Euros, and even
>>though they mention the US & higher, they also mention additional
>>charges due to currency exchange fees. I was hoping there was some
>>relatively simple way of doing it all that perhaps I missed. Once all
>>that is added in,. I think Sur la Table might be cheaper!
>>

>If you are curious about the wood pulp type (as I am) I would be happy
>to contact the manufacturer to see if there is someone in the U.S. (I
>am assuming here that you are located in the U.S.) who imports them.
>Of course, you are correct. Importing these thing in twos and threes
>is likely to be very costly. If someone is bringing them in by the
>hundreds, the costs per piece are radically diminished. The company is
>clearly rather large. It would not be surprising if they have agents
>in other countries.
>
Yes..it is the wood pulp that is intriguing. If there is a distributor
here, it would be nice, but I have never seen nor heard of them
before. Perhaps some of the pros around here have.

Boron

"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
...
> Yes..it is the wood pulp that is intriguing. If there is a distributor
> here, it would be nice, but I have never seen nor heard of them
> before. Perhaps some of the pros around here have.
>
> Boron

Why not write to TMB Baking and ask if they are planning on carrying them?
Janet

On Sat, 14 Feb 2004 19:54:31 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>
>"Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
.. .
>> Yes..it is the wood pulp that is intriguing. If there is a distributor
>> here, it would be nice, but I have never seen nor heard of them
>> before. Perhaps some of the pros around here have.
>>
>> Boron
>
>Why not write to TMB Baking and ask if they are planning on carrying them?
>Janet
>
I'm hoping we may get lucky on this group first and find someone who
has used them and has an opinion about them. I would feel more
comfortable asking someone to carry them if I knew more about them.

Boron

Boron Elgar wrote:

> Tell me what you make of these, then, Samartha. You will be better
> able to delve into the regular pages far better than I. They sound
> fascinating, though I have a feeling it would not be easy to get them
> to send a couple over here.
> http://web282.km1002.keymachine.de/b...single&lang=en
>
> Boron

The prices are definitely better and that Company seems to be set up for
international ship- and payments. If you need help with this, email via
backchannel.

The peculiarity with the Germans is that the credit card payments are
not so common. What seems common is to ship and the receiver will pay
when s/he got the merchandise, usually by transfer from one
(German/European) bank account to the other - that's like writing a
check, only that it's an order to your (the buyer's) bank to transfer
the money to the account. Or - you give your bank information and the
vendor debits your bank account. But that works only within Europe.

I just got a few items from there - the plastic forms and the stainless
steel pans with cover:

http://www.hobbybaecker.de/hobbyshop/de/dept_70.html

For me it was easy because I talked to the lady in Bavarian. The Company
is about 50 miles from where I grew up.

The shipping was 62.87 Eur, the stuff was about 11 lb (without
packaging) and I got it within two weeks or so.

The plastic works better for me because it can swim whereas the wooden
baskets need to be put in a plastic bowl. The fourth picture on this
page:

http://samartha.net/SD/procedures/DM3/

shows the dough in a bowl. So far, I put the basket into the bowl and
the dough into the basket. The temperature transfer from the water to
the dough went through:

- plastic bowl
- air between inner wall of plastic bowl and basket
- wood of basket to dough

With the plastic bakets it's direct - water - plastic - dough, I did it
the first time today and got a better rise. The temperature tranfer and
control is just excellent.

Well, that's my plastic basket story. I think the trick with the baskets
- plastic or "cane" is to shake the dough loose every once and a while
so it does not stick - and flour the dough. I haven't found a good
solution for wetter rye doughs. So far, I put them with plastic foil in
a basket.

Samartha

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

Janet Bostwick wrote:
>
> "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Yes..it is the wood pulp that is intriguing. If there is a distributor
> > here, it would be nice, but I have never seen nor heard of them
> > before. Perhaps some of the pros around here have.
> >
> > Boron
>
> Why not write to TMB Baking and ask if they are planning on carrying them?
> Janet

Sure and charge a juicy markup.....

s.

--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

"Samartha Deva" > wrote in message
...
> Janet Bostwick wrote:
> >
> > "Boron Elgar" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Yes..it is the wood pulp that is intriguing. If there is a distributor
> > > here, it would be nice, but I have never seen nor heard of them
> > > before. Perhaps some of the pros around here have.
> > >
> > > Boron
> >
> > Why not write to TMB Baking and ask if they are planning on carrying
them?
> > Janet
>
> Sure and charge a juicy markup.....
>
> s.
You figure that their bulk pricing purchase from the German company plus TMB
markup will be more than an individual rfc'er few item purchase plus
overseas shipping? I'm betting it will be close to a toss-up, plus you will
be able to buy whatever item you want in whatever quantity you want. In
this case the 'juicy' markup would be a service fee for reducing the hassle.
Janet

Janet Bostwick wrote:

> You figure that their bulk pricing purchase from the German company plus TMB
> markup will be more than an individual rfc'er few item purchase plus
> overseas shipping? I'm betting it will be close to a toss-up, plus you will
> be able to buy whatever item you want in whatever quantity you want. In
> this case the 'juicy' markup would be a service fee for reducing the hassle.
> Janet

Price issues aside,

for me, you are a little bit too far out there, speculating: calling TMB
if they care to carry the item of interest, if that's a possibility you
see, please go ahead. I really question, if their baskets for $ 17+ are
a hot item and they would see the need to expand their product line on
baskets. Maybe they do and appreciate your telling them, if so, this
would be great.

In a more concrete example, I got a bunch of stuff recently, it cost me
average EUR 2.64 per item on overseas freight and the steel pans were
relatively heavy. So, from a freight cost standpoint I find it
absolutely resonable to get toys from there.

Those were items I was unable to locate in USA, so there is no direct
price comparison and the thought to maybe talk a vendor, in particular
TMB (I looked at their web site to see what they had and if this would
work) into carrying the items so I could then buy from them a wider
selection in items and quantity in the more or less near future never
occured to me.

I think it's a nice phantasy, but if it works that way, the better.

As for your "reducing the hassle" - that's also not applicable for me. I
find it rather interesting and satisfying to go to a source which has it
available right now and get what I want.

But hey - everyone to one's liking. In case you approach TMB, could you
please report back?

Samartha


--
remove -nospam from my email address, if there is one
SD page is the http://samartha.net/SD/

>
> Those were items I was unable to locate in USA, so there is no direct
> price comparison and the thought to maybe talk a vendor, in particular
> TMB (I looked at their web site to see what they had and if this would
> work) into carrying the items so I could then buy from them a wider
> selection in items and quantity in the more or less near future never
> occured to me.

Do you have a url for TMB?
I've not heard of it. A newbie, I suppose.
thanks,
Dee

I am awaiting a 3 piece banneton order right now from a company in
Florida, so I am not immediately in the market (assuming my order is
successful>
> Boron
>

Can you give the url (if there is one) where you ordered your 3-piece
banneton?
Or would you like to wait until your order is successful? I hope your are
not disappointed.
Thanks.
Dee

"Dee Randall" asked "Boron":

> Can you give the url (if there is one) where you ordered your 3-piece
> banneton? Or would you like to wait until your order is successful? =20

You know, dear child, you don't have to wait until you get just the=20
right banneton. Look at what one guy did with a cookie sheet:

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/ronpics/ronsfsd.html

---
DickA

On Sun, 15 Feb 2004 09:26:11 -0500, "Dee Randall"
<deedoveyatshenteldotnet> wrote:

>Do you have a url for TMB?

Howdy,

http://www.tmbbaking.com/

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."