I decided to try something new this week to get more flavor/sour in my
bread. I decided to push the starter to the limits.

Day 1, 7:00 am first cycle of starter, 18 grams refrigerator starter, add to
this 18 grams flour, 18 grams water. Through out I used KA white bread
flour, all I had on hand.
10:00 pm add 50 grams flour, 50 grams water.
Day 2, 10:00 pm., yes that is correct I let it go 24 hours, add 130 grams
flour, 130 grams water.
Day 3 10:00 pm mix dough, add 402 grams flour, 198 grams water. Mix 3-4
minutes in KA 5 qt mixer, let rest 10 mins.. add salt (11g) mix/knead in
mixer 8 mins. Turned out on lightly floured board and hand knead 4-5 mins.
Id did not still feel quite right but I formed it to as tight a ball as I
could, placed in bowl, covered with plastic wrap. Place bowl in
refrigerator.
Day 4, 7:30 am remove bowl and place on table at room temp. 12:30 pm turn
out dough and form into loaf. place on parchment on a baking sheet. Place
sheet in proof box at 85 degrees, I have been using the over the range
microwave as a proof box, it fits the baking sheet just nice and maintains
85 degrees thanks to that light bulb on the underside. I could increase the
heat by putting in the other bulb but that might get to hot.
2:10 pm take the risen dough with parchment and place on peel, slash and put
on stone in pre heated 475 degree oven, with cast iron pan, add water to pan
spritz loaf and walls, sprits 3 more times at 3 min. intervals. Reduce heat
to 425 after 15 mins., bake another 20 until internal temp of 200 degrees.

This did produce a more sour loaf. Nothing spectacular about the oven spring
or crumb both what I would consider about the same as my other loaves. But
the taste is better. The starter after all that ferment smelled heavy of
hard cider, a strong whiff would burn the nostrils slightly.
All in all I think I will keep at it.

Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the hydration. I
figured it at 66% that is 198 total grams starter flour plus 402 for a total
of 600 grams flour, 198 +198 grams water =396 or 66 %.




Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com

"Ron Anderson" > wrote in message=20
hlink.net...

> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter =
to=20
> the limits.

I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
temperature, and in the end you ask:

> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the=20
> hydration ...=20

It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high =
fermentation=20
activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful =
does=20
not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough=20
flavors.

An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
"hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say, =
make
the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you =
must,
when you are done.

Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based=20
on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,=20
a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be=20
called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of =
many=20
hours of study and planning.

Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously=20
interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to =
construct
a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post =
could=20
be presented in a form more like a flow chart?

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...


> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter to
> the limits.

I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
temperature, and in the end you ask:

Not really working any angle, but I did assume that the reader would assume
room temperature as it was not stated. I do appologize I know assumption it
the mother of all foul ups. so to clarify 67 dergees whre not stated
otherwise.

> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the
> hydration ...

It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high fermentation
activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful does
not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough
flavors.

Well it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most of
the steps I did acomplish a high degree of fermentaion. It is my
understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour. You will
notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refridgerator and 5 more at room
temparature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind, as a long rise. Where
is the documentation on the long rise theory?

An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
"hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say, make
the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you
must,
when you are done.

I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. I was using what I
believed to be bakers percentage in figuring the hydration. And was seeking
confirmation my calculations were correct. The reason is to compare with
other hydrations I have used. This I supose an attampt to balance the abilty
to handle the dough and maintain a moist crumb with the hopes of those
elusive large irregular holes.

Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based
on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,
a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be
called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of many
hours of study and planning.

Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously
interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to
construct
a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post could
be presented in a form more like a flow chart?

If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my guest, I have
neither the time nor inclination to do so.

Ron Anderson


--
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

On 3/11/04 11:58 AM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:

> Ron,

It seems to me that you're on the right track for developing an "airy"
crumb. My suggestions would be:

1) increase the proportion of starter in your dough (perhaps trying as much
as 1/3 by weight of the finished dough)

2) a 24 to 48 hour cold aging cycle should take care of all of your flavor
requirements.

3) find a warmer spot for the final rise after shaping. I use a covered bus
tub in a sunny closed room.

4) possibly most important ==> be very careful not to degas/deflate the
dough during final shaping. Just ease it from the dough bucket, cut it to
size, and gently shape. You've got a lot of good "holes" working already.
Keep 'em.

5) Salt affects the "stiffness" of the dough (gram for gram) more than any
other factor. Adding a 5 or 10 grams to a 1300 to 1400 gram dough won't move
the needle on the baker's percentages... but the "feel" or perceived
hydration level will change considerably.


Not to knock you but I think Dick Adams' flow chart advice is excellent.
There's a lot of value to visually representing the process. (Dick, I am
looking for a small blackboard even now and a feng shui consultant to
position it.)

Will


>
>
> http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
>> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter to
>> the limits.
>
> I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
> seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
> temperature, and in the end you ask:
>
> Not really working any angle, but I did assume that the reader would assume
> room temperature as it was not stated. I do appologize I know assumption it
> the mother of all foul ups. so to clarify 67 dergees whre not stated
> otherwise.
>
>> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the
>> hydration ...
>
> It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high fermentation
> activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful does
> not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough
> flavors.
>
> Well it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most of
> the steps I did acomplish a high degree of fermentaion. It is my
> understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour. You will
> notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refridgerator and 5 more at room
> temparature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind, as a long rise. Where
> is the documentation on the long rise theory?
>
> An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
> of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
> "hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say, make
> the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you
> must,
> when you are done.
>
> I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. I was using what I
> believed to be bakers percentage in figuring the hydration. And was seeking
> confirmation my calculations were correct. The reason is to compare with
> other hydrations I have used. This I supose an attampt to balance the abilty
> to handle the dough and maintain a moist crumb with the hopes of those
> elusive large irregular holes.
>
> Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
> famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based
> on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,
> a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be
> called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
> of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of many
> hours of study and planning.
>
> Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously
> interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to
> construct
> a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post could
> be presented in a form more like a flow chart?
>
> If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my guest, I have
> neither the time nor inclination to do so.
>
> Ron Anderson
>

"williamwaller" > wrote in message
news:mailman.51.1079032047.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
> On 3/11/04 11:58 AM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:
>
> > Ron,
>
> It seems to me that you're on the right track for developing an "airy"
> crumb. My suggestions would be:
>
> 1) increase the proportion of starter in your dough (perhaps trying as
much
> as 1/3 by weight of the finished dough)

By my calculation the starter in the subjct dough was actaully mor than 1/4
closer to 40 % 600 grams flour plus 396 water 11 salt = 1007 total 396 of
that starter.

> 2) a 24 to 48 hour cold aging cycle should take care of all of your flavor
> requirements.
Interesting. I will try that. I was not wanting to over rise it.

> 3) find a warmer spot for the final rise after shaping. I use a covered
bus
> tub in a sunny closed room.
Looks like I should put that other bulb in the microwave.
How warm is to warm?

> 4) possibly most important ==> be very careful not to degas/deflate the
> dough during final shaping. Just ease it from the dough bucket, cut it to
> size, and gently shape. You've got a lot of good "holes" working already.
> Keep 'em.
That is one I so as a rule. Actually I do not cut the dough as I make only
enough for 1 loaf. Just 2 people here and 2 loaves would be a waste as the
second would never hold up.

> 5) Salt affects the "stiffness" of the dough (gram for gram) more than any
> other factor. Adding a 5 or 10 grams to a 1300 to 1400 gram dough won't
move
> the needle on the baker's percentages... but the "feel" or perceived
> hydration level will change considerably.
Please expand on this. salt is one of the more confusing aspects. I have
been keeping it in the 1.8 to 2 % range as I have read in many places. Hence
the 11 grams for a 1000 g loaf.

>
> Not to knock you but I think Dick Adams' flow chart advice is excellent.
> There's a lot of value to visually representing the process. (Dick, I am
> looking for a small blackboard even now and a feng shui consultant to
> position it.)
That may be but I still do not have the time. This is not terribly difficult
proccess mixing flour water and salt.

> Will
>
>
> >
> >
> > http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
> > "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >
> >> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter
to
> >> the limits.
> >
> > I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
> > seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
> > temperature, and in the end you ask:
> >
> > Not really working any angle, but I did assume that the reader would
assume
> > room temperature as it was not stated. I do appologize I know assumption
it
> > the mother of all foul ups. so to clarify 67 dergees whre not stated
> > otherwise.
> >
> >> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the
> >> hydration ...
> >
> > It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high
fermentation
> > activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful
does
> > not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough
> > flavors.
> >
> > Well it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most
of
> > the steps I did acomplish a high degree of fermentaion. It is my
> > understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour. You will
> > notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refridgerator and 5 more at
room
> > temparature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind, as a long rise.
Where
> > is the documentation on the long rise theory?
> >
> > An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
> > of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
> > "hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say,
make
> > the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you
> > must,
> > when you are done.
> >
> > I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. I was using what I
> > believed to be bakers percentage in figuring the hydration. And was
seeking
> > confirmation my calculations were correct. The reason is to compare with
> > other hydrations I have used. This I supose an attampt to balance the
abilty
> > to handle the dough and maintain a moist crumb with the hopes of those
> > elusive large irregular holes.
> >
> > Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
> > famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based
> > on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,
> > a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be
> > called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
> > of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of
many
> > hours of study and planning.
> >
> > Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously
> > interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to
> > construct
> > a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post
could
> > be presented in a form more like a flow chart?
> >
> > If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my guest, I
have
> > neither the time nor inclination to do so.
> >
> > Ron Anderson
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 13:03:50 -0600, williamwaller
> wrote:

>On 3/11/04 11:58 AM, "Ron Anderson" > wrote:
>
>> Ron,
>
>It seems to me that you're on the right track for developing an "airy"
>crumb. My suggestions would be:
>
>1) increase the proportion of starter in your dough (perhaps trying as much
>as 1/3 by weight of the finished dough)
>
>2) a 24 to 48 hour cold aging cycle should take care of all of your flavor
>requirements.
>
>3) find a warmer spot for the final rise after shaping. I use a covered bus
>tub in a sunny closed room.
>
>4) possibly most important ==> be very careful not to degas/deflate the
>dough during final shaping. Just ease it from the dough bucket, cut it to
>size, and gently shape. You've got a lot of good "holes" working already.
>Keep 'em.
>
>5) Salt affects the "stiffness" of the dough (gram for gram) more than any
>other factor. Adding a 5 or 10 grams to a 1300 to 1400 gram dough won't move
>the needle on the baker's percentages... but the "feel" or perceived
>hydration level will change considerably.
>
>
>Not to knock you but I think Dick Adams' flow chart advice is excellent.
>There's a lot of value to visually representing the process. (Dick, I am
>looking for a small blackboard even now and a feng shui consultant to
>position it.)
>
>Will
>
>
>>
>>
>> http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
>> "Dick Adams" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>
>>> ... to get more flavor/sour in my bread. I decided to push the starter to
>>> the limits.
>>
>> I am not sure what angle you are attempting to work here, Ron, but there
>> seem to be a lot of numbers and times and times of day, not much about
>> temperature, and in the end you ask:
>>
>> Not really working any angle, but I did assume that the reader would assume
>> room temperature as it was not stated. I do appologize I know assumption it
>> the mother of all foul ups. so to clarify 67 dergees whre not stated
>> otherwise.
>>
>>> Now would some of you math wizards confirm or correct me on the
>>> hydration ...
>>
>> It seems to me that the starter should be built to obtain high fermentation
>> activity. Manipulating the starter to make the bread sour/flavorful does
>> not make much sense to me. Bread that rises longer gets more sourdough
>> flavors.
>>
>> Well it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most of
>> the steps I did acomplish a high degree of fermentaion. It is my
>> understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour. You will
>> notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refridgerator and 5 more at room
>> temparature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind, as a long rise. Where
>> is the documentation on the long rise theory?
>>
>> An easy way to determine the "hydration" is to keep track of the amount
>> of water used (and salt). Then, from the weight of the final dough, the
>> "hydration" can be determined by simple arithmetic. That is to say, make
>> the dough so that it feels right, and figure out the "hydration", if you
>> must,
>> when you are done.
>>
>> I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. I was using what I
>> believed to be bakers percentage in figuring the hydration. And was seeking
>> confirmation my calculations were correct. The reason is to compare with
>> other hydrations I have used. This I supose an attampt to balance the abilty
>> to handle the dough and maintain a moist crumb with the hopes of those
>> elusive large irregular holes.
>>
>> Once I worked in a research lab for a boss who was quite smart (and
>> famous, eventually). To ready himself to conduct a procedure based
>> on readings in the microbiological literature, he would make a sketch,
>> a diagram, on a single page of notebook paper. I guess it could be
>> called a flow chart though its nomenclature was unique to the discipline
>> of the institution. One piece of paper could summarize the result of many
>> hours of study and planning.
>>
>> Most recipes are not even close to flow charts, but if one is seriously
>> interested in trying to succeed with a recipe, I think it is useful to
>> construct
>> a simple flow chart. Perhaps the information in the referenced post could
>> be presented in a form more like a flow chart?
>>
>> If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my guest, I have
>> neither the time nor inclination to do so.
>>
>> Ron Anderson
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>

Hi Will,

".conversation" the of flow the understand to impossible but all is it
,top the at comment your post you Because

..bottom to top from read We

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Ron Anderson" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
> news:mailman.51.1079032047.204.rec.food.sourdough@ mail.otherwhen.com...
snip
Ron said:
>
> > 5) Salt affects the "stiffness" of the dough (gram for gram) more than
any
> > other factor. Adding a 5 or 10 grams to a 1300 to 1400 gram dough won't
> move
> > the needle on the baker's percentages... but the "feel" or perceived
> > hydration level will change considerably.

Will responded
> Please expand on this. salt is one of the more confusing aspects. I have
> been keeping it in the 1.8 to 2 % range as I have read in many places.
Hence
> the 11 grams for a 1000 g loaf.
snip
> > > Ron Anderson
> > >

The bread baker's rule of thumb is 1 ounce of salt per 1 quart of water.
Many of us add salt last after some development of the dough because the
salt tightens the gluten. Because of this it is easier to mix and partially
develop the dough without the salt. The effect of the salt on the dough is
instantly noticeable. Try it, you'll see what I mean.
Janet

> > Please expand on this. salt is one of the more confusing aspects. I have
> > been keeping it in the 1.8 to 2 % range as I have read in many places.
> Hence
> > the 11 grams for a 1000 g loaf.
> snip
> > > > Ron Anderson
> > > >
>
> The bread baker's rule of thumb is 1 ounce of salt per 1 quart of water.
> Many of us add salt last after some development of the dough because the
> salt tightens the gluten. Because of this it is easier to mix and
partially
> develop the dough without the salt. The effect of the salt on the dough
is
> instantly noticeable. Try it, you'll see what I mean.
> Janet
>
>
I do add the salt after the dough has been mixed as a rule.
Given the 1 ounce to the quart rule that would come in at 12.28 grams for
the 396 grams of total water used in that dough at 600 grams flour that
makes it just over 2 percent, not far from the 1.8 to 2 % rule I have been
following.

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 22:56:25 GMT, "Ron Anderson"
> wrote:

>
>> > Please expand on this. salt is one of the more confusing aspects. I have
>> > been keeping it in the 1.8 to 2 % range as I have read in many places.
>> Hence
>> > the 11 grams for a 1000 g loaf.
>> snip
>> > > > Ron Anderson
>> > > >
>>
>> The bread baker's rule of thumb is 1 ounce of salt per 1 quart of water.
>> Many of us add salt last after some development of the dough because the
>> salt tightens the gluten. Because of this it is easier to mix and
>partially
>> develop the dough without the salt. The effect of the salt on the dough
>is
>> instantly noticeable. Try it, you'll see what I mean.
>> Janet
>>
>>
>I do add the salt after the dough has been mixed as a rule.
>Given the 1 ounce to the quart rule that would come in at 12.28 grams for
>the 396 grams of total water used in that dough at 600 grams flour that
>makes it just over 2 percent, not far from the 1.8 to 2 % rule I have been
>following.
>

Hi Ron,

I may be off base, but...

It makes more sense to me to do salt as you have, that is, as a
proportion (typically about 2%) of the weight of the dry ingredients.
I don't understand why we would want more salt in a super-hydrated
bread (such as a ciabatta) than in a bread made with lower
hydration...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Ron Anderson" > wrote in message=20
link.net...

> it seems to me that to let the start ferment for 24 hours for most of
> the steps I did accomplish a high degree of fermentation. It is my
> understanding that the fermentation is what creates the sour.

After a while the fermentation is done. Probably in less than 24
hours at room temperature. A lot less warmer. =20

>You will notice the long rise of 9.5 hours in the refrigerator and=20
> 5 more at room temperature. Certainly qualifies, at least in my mind,=20
> as a long rise.

Five hours in the fridge does not count for much -- maybe=20
equivalent to a half hour at room temperature. Of course, it=20
does not start being altogether at fridge temperature until it has=20
been in there for a while.

> Where is the documentation on the long rise theory?

Who has proved that bears defecate in the woods?

> I do not see what salt has to do with hydration. =20

If you were to follow the suggestion I made, you would know the=20
weight* of the total water. You would subtract that, and the salt=20
weight (which is trivial) from the total weight of the finished=20
dough to know the flour weight. The bakers' per cent hydration is=20
100 times the weight of the water divided by the weight of the=20
flour.

(* weight is known by measuring all volumes of water used.) =20

> ... seeking confirmation my calculations were correct. The=20
reason is to compare with other hydrations I have used.

Flour comes out of the sack at hydrations ~14%. Humidity may=20
raise that by 6 or 7%, and arid conditions may reduce it.

> If you wish to present that information in a flow chart be my=20
> guest, I have neither the time nor inclination to do so.

I have as little interest interest in calculating the hydration=20
of your dough as you have in presenting your information in a form=20
where the answer you seek might be more readily evident.

The method I use, as described above, for my own doughs, easily=20
produces a recordable value for the hydration, but it is subject=20
to the uncertainty of not knowing how the base hydration (14%?)=20
of the dough has been affected by the ambient humidity.

After a while, one gets to be guided by the feel of the dough. =20
With me, it turns out usually, these days, at a hydration of=20
<60%. The bread does not spread much in rising, but is light=20
and has a nice web, if not a totally holey one. Photos linked=20
below are of 1-3/4 lb. loaves from my most recent baking effort.=20
(Baked on a tray, from cold start, no "steam", rise time extended=20
by one mid-rise deflation/kneading, which could be said to=20
amount to two rises -- bread tasted quite good in the way the=20
sourdough bread should, and was moderately sour).=20

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...%5F3-09-04/jpg

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...e%5F3-9-04.jpg

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Oops

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message =
...

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...%5F3-09-04/jpg

That won't work! Let's try it this way:

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...%5F3-09-04.jpg

Sorry for the inconvenience.

---
DickA

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
snip>
> It makes more sense to me to do salt as you have, that is, as a
> proportion (typically about 2%) of the weight of the dry ingredients.
> I don't understand why we would want more salt in a super-hydrated
> bread (such as a ciabatta) than in a bread made with lower
> hydration...
>
> All the best,
>
> --
> Kenneth
Good point. I don't know an answer to that. Perhaps the rule was used for
traditional loaves and became a 'standard.'
I do understand that many recipes contain more salt than necessary. But in
this case, where the goal is to obtain large holes, perhaps less salt is
best given that salt acts as a kind of brake.
Janet

On Thu, 11 Mar 2004 18:11:12 -0700, "Janet Bostwick"
> wrote:

>
>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>snip>
>> It makes more sense to me to do salt as you have, that is, as a
>> proportion (typically about 2%) of the weight of the dry ingredients.
>> I don't understand why we would want more salt in a super-hydrated
>> bread (such as a ciabatta) than in a bread made with lower
>> hydration...
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> --
>> Kenneth
>Good point. I don't know an answer to that. Perhaps the rule was used for
>traditional loaves and became a 'standard.'
>I do understand that many recipes contain more salt than necessary. But in
>this case, where the goal is to obtain large holes, perhaps less salt is
>best given that salt acts as a kind of brake.
>Janet
>

Hi Janet,

One interesting aspect of this is that there do seem to be "standard"
approaches to hydration within particular cultures. For example, I
have read that in much of South America breads are made with lower
hydrations because (for some reason) very prominent slashes seem to be
preferred.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Very nice looking loaves.


--
Ron Anderson
A1 Sewing Machine
PO Box 60
Sand Lake, NY 12153
518-469-5133
http://www.a1sewingmachine.com
"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
Oops

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...%5F3-09-04/jpg

That won't work! Let's try it this way:

http://prettycolors.com/bread%5Fcult...%5F3-09-04.jpg

Sorry for the inconvenience.

---
DickA

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> ".conversation" the of flow the understand to impossible but
all is it
> ,top the at comment your post you Because
> .bottom to top from read We

I hate bottom posting! It's no trouble to read what the last
poster says first. It is a problem to have to scan to the bottom
of a subject, past the things already read to get to new
material. I guess I'll have to find a way to get my computer to
start at the bottom of messages.
Ernie

On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:04:58 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>It is a problem to have to scan to the bottom
>of a subject, past the things already read to get to new
>material.

Hi Ernie,

Try touching CNTL-END...

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 12 Mar 2004 03:04:58 GMT, "Ernie"
> > wrote:
> >It is a problem to have to scan to the bottom
> >of a subject, past the things already read to get to new
> >material.
>
> Hi Ernie,
> Try touching CNTL-END...
> Kenneth

Kenneth,
For some strange reason that does not work when reading mail,
only when I am responding to mail. I am using Outlook Express.
Ernie

On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:02:24 GMT, "Ernie"
> wrote:

>Kenneth,
>For some strange reason that does not work when reading mail,
>only when I am responding to mail. I am using Outlook Express.
>Ernie

Hi Ernie,

Hmmm... When I saw that you were using OE I gave it a try, and it
worked for me.

BTW, you say that it does not work "when reading mail" but what about
when reading Usenet posts such as this one? That was where I tried it.
That key combination should zap you to the bottom of the thread.

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 15 Mar 2004 19:02:24 GMT, "Ernie"
> > wrote:
>
> >Kenneth,
> >For some strange reason that does not work when reading mail,
> >only when I am responding to mail. I am using Outlook
Express.
> >Ernie
>
> Hi Ernie,
> Hmmm... When I saw that you were using OE I gave it a try, and
it
> worked for me.
> Kenneth

Kenneth,
This is very interesting, sometimes it works and sometimes it
won't. Must be a bug or something.
Ernie