Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

Hello all,

I seem to have a great talent for getting my starters going, but fail when
it comes to baking the bread. I have had my current starter (whole wheat)
going for 9 days and it's already doubling in size. Is this normal?
Acceptable?

I've always had good luck getting my starters going. But when I make my
bread it never rises that well and has a crust is so hard that the space
shuttles could be made out of it! You need a chain-saw to get thru the
crust. The actual bread usually tastes pretty good once you saw thru the
crust.


Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I could
try?

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 05:49:47 GMT, Robert >
wrote:

>Hello all,
>
>I seem to have a great talent for getting my starters going, but fail when
>it comes to baking the bread. I have had my current starter (whole wheat)
>going for 9 days and it's already doubling in size. Is this normal?
>Acceptable?
>
>I've always had good luck getting my starters going. But when I make my
>bread it never rises that well and has a crust is so hard that the space
>shuttles could be made out of it! You need a chain-saw to get thru the
>crust. The actual bread usually tastes pretty good once you saw thru the
>crust.
>
>
>Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I could
>try?

Hi Robert,

Just one question first...

What sort of bread are you trying (and apparently failing) to bake?
That is, what is in it?

HTH,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"Robert" > wrote in message =
.158...

[ ... ]

> Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I =
could=20
> try?

Robert, if you send me a valid email address, I will send a recipe that=20
works very well for me.

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 23:00:56 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
wrote:

>
>"Robert" > wrote in message .158...
>
>[ ... ]
>
>> Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I could
>> try?
>
>Robert, if you send me a valid email address, I will send a recipe that
>works very well for me.
Robert, don't fall for the spam tricks. There are good recipes
in the FAQ, also on
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html
Good luck !!

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

On 4/14/04 8:20 PM, "amateur" > wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 23:00:56 GMT, "Dick Adams" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Robert" > wrote in message
>> .158...
>>
>> [ ... ]
>>
>>> Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I could
>>> try?
>>
>> Robert, if you send me a valid email address, I will send a recipe that
>> works very well for me.
> Robert, don't fall for the spam tricks. There are good recipes
> in the FAQ, also on
> http://www.sourdoughhome.com/index.html
> Good luck !!

Robert,

I'm sure there are great recipes in the FAQ's, in fact, DickA often reminds
posters to read them. Whether or not you provide him with an email, you
should know he is not a spammer. Rather, he is like Cato the Younger, sharp
with criticism, more opinionated than most and tends to enjoy rhetoric more
than reason. He is also very tired of banana chemistry (a place where we
share common ground). You can safely share your mailbox. I am curious what
formula he's willing to share. I hope there are no inverted sugars in it.

Will
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"amateur" <amateur@home> wrote in message =
...

> ... Robert, don't fall for (Dick Adams'?!) spam tricks.=20

A-man, you are a paranoid little worm. =20

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"Robert" > wrote in message
.158...
> Hello all,
>
> I seem to have a great talent for getting my starters going, but fail when
> it comes to baking the bread. I have had my current starter (whole wheat)
> going for 9 days and it's already doubling in size. Is this normal?
> Acceptable?
>
> I've always had good luck getting my starters going. But when I make my
> bread it never rises that well and has a crust is so hard that the space
> shuttles could be made out of it! You need a chain-saw to get thru the
> crust. The actual bread usually tastes pretty good once you saw thru the
> crust.
>
>
> Anyone have suggestions or ideas....basic (non-fail) recipes that I could
> try?

I have almost no experience with sourdough so I won't pretend to deal with
that. I have a lot of experience with crusts, though. Three ways to soften
crusts would be 1. Use a shorter dough. Lean doughs tend to have drier
(harder) crusts. It may be as simple as adding an ounce of oil or shortening
to the dough. 2. Bake the bread for a shorter time or at a lower
temperature for the same or a longer time. Fewer btu's applied to the crust
will cause the crust to dry less. If you bake to an exterior color, then
check the crumb and adjust from there. I snap the bread from time to time
and get it out of the oven as soon as I am satisfied with the sound - even
if the exterior is light. 3. Steam the bread. Since this isn't practical
in a home oven, then use a spray bottle to spray water on the bread a few
times during the first 10 minutes of baking. This thins the crust a little.
Your'e way ahead of me on the starter, though. Good baking.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 20:38:52 -0500, "Fred"
> wrote:

>3. Steam the bread. Since this isn't practical
>in a home oven, then use a spray bottle to spray water on the bread a few
>times during the first 10 minutes of baking.

Hi Fred,

It is practical, inexpensive, and easy... (boiler on the range top,
tube to convey the steam into the vent at the back of the oven.)
Spraying the bread does not do the same thing as would steam...

All the best,

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"Fred" > wrote in message=20
...

> Three ways to soften crusts would be=20

> 1. Use a shorter dough (more fat?!*) ...
> 2. Bake the bread for a shorter time or at a lower =20
temperature for the same or a longer time ...=20
> 3. Steam the bread ...

Those three are quite debatable, as is most everything=20
else around here.

The best way to obtain soft crusts is to prevent drying
while the loaves are still warm after being removed from
the oven. You can have your crusts as soggy or as
crispy as you like by waiting for various intervals=20
before bagging the loaves in plastic, providing they
are not already baked to bread-stick dryness.

This inelegant trickery is held in contempt by master
bakers and culinary professionals. Cautious folk point
out the bread so bagged may mold, so that is why you
freeze what you are not going to use right away, and
don't recycle the bags (at least for bread use).

Fat (oil, shortening) is not conducive to the kind of gluten
structure that effectively traps gas for good rising.

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> (Steaming the bread) is practical, inexpensive, and easy...=20
> (boiler on the range top, tube to convey the steam into the=20
> vent at the back of the oven.)

Pishtosh! Farting in the Grand Canyon is about as consequential.

> Spraying the bread does not do the same thing as would steam...

Right! It destroys the tension the doughskin where the dough is=20
wet, and makes a big mess out of the rise.

BTW, there is a big difference between steam and moisture. It
been pointed out by several r.f.s. posters that the burning of gas
creates water vapor. In gas ovens, that source is probably more
effective than any moisture from spritzing or pressure-cooker
contraptions, not to mention throwing in some ice cubes.

Steam is what sent locomotives thundering across continents
in the early part of the last century. =20

---
DickA

___
* This kind of misapplication of language is what makes bakerspeak
confusing and bakerthink muddled.






=20

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
"Fred" > wrote in message
...

> Three ways to soften crusts would be

> 1. Use a shorter dough (more fat?!*) ...
> 2. Bake the bread for a shorter time or at a lower
temperature for the same or a longer time ...
> 3. Steam the bread ...

Those three are quite debatable, as is most everything
else around here.

The best way to obtain soft crusts is to prevent drying
while the loaves are still warm after being removed from
the oven. You can have your crusts as soggy or as
crispy as you like by waiting for various intervals
before bagging the loaves in plastic, providing they
are not already baked to bread-stick dryness.

This inelegant trickery is held in contempt by master
bakers and culinary professionals. Cautious folk point
out the bread so bagged may mold, so that is why you
freeze what you are not going to use right away, and
don't recycle the bags (at least for bread use).

Fat (oil, shortening) is not conducive to the kind of gluten
structure that effectively traps gas for good rising.

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> (Steaming the bread) is practical, inexpensive, and easy...
> (boiler on the range top, tube to convey the steam into the
> vent at the back of the oven.)

Pishtosh! Farting in the Grand Canyon is about as consequential.

> Spraying the bread does not do the same thing as would steam...

Right! It destroys the tension the doughskin where the dough is
wet, and makes a big mess out of the rise.

BTW, there is a big difference between steam and moisture. It
been pointed out by several r.f.s. posters that the burning of gas
creates water vapor. In gas ovens, that source is probably more
effective than any moisture from spritzing or pressure-cooker
contraptions, not to mention throwing in some ice cubes.

Steam is what sent locomotives thundering across continents
in the early part of the last century.

---
DickA

___
* This kind of misapplication of language is what makes bakerspeak
confusing and bakerthink muddled.


OK, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. And I'll keep mine to myself.
Take care.

Fred
The Good Gourmet
http://www.thegoodgourmet.com

Starter doubling in 9 days?
 

"Fred" > wrote in message =
...

> [ ... ] (replay of =
)

> OK, you do it your way and I'll do it mine. And I'll keep mine to =
myself.

I knew you wouldn't like it, Fred. That is what I meant when I wrote:

> > This inelegant trickery is held in contempt by master
> > bakers and culinary professionals.

> Fred
> The Good Gourmet

Be Good, Fred.

Post no bills!

---
DickA

No spraying?
 

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...
"Fred" > wrote in message
...

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...

> (Steaming the bread) is practical, inexpensive, and easy...
> (boiler on the range top, tube to convey the steam into the
> vent at the back of the oven.)

>Pishtosh! Farting in the Grand Canyon is about as consequential.

> Spraying the bread does not do the same thing as would steam...

>Right! It destroys the tension the doughskin where the dough is
>wet, and makes a big mess out of the rise.

Hi Dick,

So, you ignore all additions of water to the oven itself? I have an electric
oven at home. I used to put the ice cubes in the cast iron, but that was
detrimental to my cast iron. Then I just poured some water in the bottom of
my oven, but that was unpredictable. Now I spray with a fine spritzer and I
get pretty good results.

Obivously, my argument is purely anecdotal - I've never tried baking without
a moisture addition. Do you have a theoretical reason for not adding
moisture? According to the reading I've done and my experience in the
bakery - you need moisture to gelatinize the carbohydrates in the crust in
order to form a nice thick crust (or this crust if you prefer to not let it
dry out).

Do you have some other information of which I am unaware?

Thanks - Tom

No spraying?
 

"Tom Stanton" > wrote in message=20
...

> I have an electric oven at home.=20

I do not know about electric ovens. The atmosphere in a gas-burning
oven starts out mildly moist due to water vapor from gas combustion.
But I could not guess exactly how much that is worth.

> Now I spray with a fine spritzer and I get pretty good results.

Compared with non-spritzed? Are you spritzing the doughloaf
or the oven walls/stone/whatever?

> I've never tried baking without a moisture addition.

I have tried it every whichaway. Throwing a cup or two of
water onto a red-hot frying pan gets enough moisture to gelatinize
the doughskin to the extent that the slash-edges melt. Also gets me
thrown out of the kitchen if Mrs. Adams finds out what I am doing.

> Do you have a theoretical reason for not adding moisture?

My theoretical reason is this: The amount of moisture that you can
induce in your oven with sprizing/ice cubes/etc. scales roughly to the =
stink you can rise in the Grand Canyon by farting (even with a
battalion of Boy Scouts to help out).

One thing that I have found efficacious that not everybody does is
to rise the doughloaves quite much (up to 5-fold volume increase) in
an extremely humid atmosphere. Then the dough-loaf surfaces are
glistening wet when the loaves go into the oven, and not much
further rise due to "oven-spring" is expected.

One needs pretty good dough (i.e., optimally developed gluten)
before that is possible. The usual experience is that the loaves become
"overproofed", whatever that may mean, at ~2-fold volume increase,
and get then tossed into the oven in hopes of "oven-spring".

I'd agree with Ed that optimal development in a KA mixer takes
ten or more minutes at low speeds. On the other hand, if preferments
are overdeveloped, ten minutes in the KA can tear the dough to shreds.

> According to the reading I've done and my experience in the
> bakery - you need moisture to gelatinize the carbohydrates in the =
crust in
> order to form a nice thick crust (or this crust if you prefer to not =
let it
> dry out).

True, no doubt. The amount of moisture under discussion probably
varies by several orders of magnitude, between gentle spritzing, and
what Kenneth could get with his Bongard if his lady would let him use
the "steam".

(Not everybody knows that the "steam" serves primarily to thicken
the crust. People have different ideas about why the "steaming" is
done, mostly dumb ideas.)

> Do you have some other information of which I am unaware?

Nah, I just make it up as I go along. Didn't you know?

: )

--=20
Dick Adams
<firstname> dot <lastname>at bigfoot dot com