On 4/2/04 3:41 PM, "williamwaller" > wrote:

> On 4/2/04 1:38 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
>>
>> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
>> news:mailman.8.1080920073.229.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>>
>>> I think the beauty of working with "sourdough" starters is there really is
>>> no single answer to this question.
>>
>> But some answers are better than others.
>>
>>> 1) The easiest... Go to Ed Wood's web site and buy his most sour culture.
>>> 2) Migrate your starter's refreshments from white or wheat flours to rye.
>>> 3) Choose to build from retained, mature dough rather than sponge.
>>> 4) Use your sense of smell to evaluate the fermentation process. Knowing
>>> when a dough is ripe is essential practice.
>>
>> "ww" may still be having some trouble with his sourdough. (He seems to have
>> been sucked in by the 'sour starter --> sour bread' myth.)
>>
>>> 5) Work on a very basic bread (a la Laurel Robertson's Desem example) until
>>> you have nailed down the idiosyncrasies of your grain supply, water,
>>> micro-climate (proofing box, refrigerator, basement, etc...), oven, and
>>> starter behavior.
>>
>> Won't hurt, but can be omitted.
>>
>> 6) Stay away from bananas, figs, apricots and other wonderful
>> what-have-you's unless you've got Betty Crocker's private phone number. My
>> personal feeling is these amendments are better on top of bread rather than
>> in it.
>>
>> Good!
>>
>> 7) Be sure your "benchmark" bread isn't a highly engineered, atypical
>> example of the naturally leavened world.
>>
>> What is a "highly engineered, atypical example of the naturally leavened
>> world?
>
> P.S. What's your bread look like, ww?



It looks like this... (Thanks to Ed Bechtel for building the page...)

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lerbread2.html


The breads depicted are from my standard baking cycle. I'm in the oven every
third day, alternating white and wheat loaves. Having baked with "bread
flour" for years, I was intrigued to read in "The Bread Builders" by Dan
Wing and Alan Scott, page 39, that regular flour would produce better flavor
and a more European profile than "bread flour". Although I keep a specific
starter tuned to regular, lower protein, flour, it's been used specifically
for pizza dough, where extensibility is the driving dimension.

I began milling WHITE WHOLE WHEAT PASTRY BERRIES to "soften" my bread flour
several months ago. The results have been quite good. The bread rises well
and the flavor is better than what I've experienced using standard flours.
Wing and Scott summarize Raymond Calvel's findings which indicate that ash
content (increased here by the inclusion of milled berries) has a dramatic,
positive effect on the activity of natural leaven cultures.

I am hoping some other posters have worked with soft flour or ash amendments
can share their experiences.

Will








>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

On 4/2/04 3:41 PM, "williamwaller" > wrote:

> On 4/2/04 1:38 PM, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
>
>>
>> "williamwaller" > wrote in message
>> news:mailman.8.1080920073.229.rec.food.sourdough@m ail.otherwhen.com...
>>
>>> I think the beauty of working with "sourdough" starters is there really is
>>> no single answer to this question.
>>
>> But some answers are better than others.
>>
>>> 1) The easiest... Go to Ed Wood's web site and buy his most sour culture.
>>> 2) Migrate your starter's refreshments from white or wheat flours to rye.
>>> 3) Choose to build from retained, mature dough rather than sponge.
>>> 4) Use your sense of smell to evaluate the fermentation process. Knowing
>>> when a dough is ripe is essential practice.
>>
>> "ww" may still be having some trouble with his sourdough. (He seems to have
>> been sucked in by the 'sour starter --> sour bread' myth.)
>>
>>> 5) Work on a very basic bread (a la Laurel Robertson's Desem example) until
>>> you have nailed down the idiosyncrasies of your grain supply, water,
>>> micro-climate (proofing box, refrigerator, basement, etc...), oven, and
>>> starter behavior.
>>
>> Won't hurt, but can be omitted.
>>
>> 6) Stay away from bananas, figs, apricots and other wonderful
>> what-have-you's unless you've got Betty Crocker's private phone number. My
>> personal feeling is these amendments are better on top of bread rather than
>> in it.
>>
>> Good!
>>
>> 7) Be sure your "benchmark" bread isn't a highly engineered, atypical
>> example of the naturally leavened world.
>>
>> What is a "highly engineered, atypical example of the naturally leavened
>> world?
>
> P.S. What's your bread look like, ww?



It looks like this... (Thanks to Ed Bechtel for building the page...)

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lerbread2.html


The breads depicted are from my standard baking cycle. I'm in the oven every
third day, alternating white and wheat loaves. Having baked with "bread
flour" for years, I was intrigued to read in "The Bread Builders" by Dan
Wing and Alan Scott, page 39, that regular flour would produce better flavor
and a more European profile than "bread flour". Although I keep a specific
starter tuned to regular, lower protein, flour, it's been used specifically
for pizza dough, where extensibility is the driving dimension.

I began milling WHITE WHOLE WHEAT PASTRY BERRIES to "soften" my bread flour
several months ago. The results have been quite good. The bread rises well
and the flavor is better than what I've experienced using standard flours.
Wing and Scott summarize Raymond Calvel's findings which indicate that ash
content (increased here by the inclusion of milled berries) has a dramatic,
positive effect on the activity of natural leaven cultures.

I am hoping some other posters have worked with soft flour or ash amendments
can share their experiences.

Will








>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

williamwaller wrote:

>http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lerbread2.html

Thank you for the photos, it is nice to see other people's breads.

> I began milling WHITE WHOLE WHEAT PASTRY BERRIES to "soften" my bread flour
> several months ago.

I have a question: Are you using soft white wheat berries or hard white
wheat berries?

Best,

Heather
_amaryllisATyahooDOTcom

On 4/15/04 6:22 PM, "HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote:

> williamwaller wrote:
>
>> http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...lerbread2.html
>
> Thank you for the photos, it is nice to see other people's breads.
>
>> I began milling WHITE WHOLE WHEAT PASTRY BERRIES to "soften" my bread flour
>> several months ago.
>
> I have a question: Are you using soft white wheat berries or hard white
> wheat berries?
>
> Best,
>
> Heather
> _amaryllisATyahooDOTcom


Heather,

They are soft white wheat berries. I also mill them for pastries.

Will




> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"HeatherInSwampscott" > wrote in message
...
>
> > I began milling WHITE WHOLE WHEAT PASTRY BERRIES to "soften" my bread
flour
> > several months ago.
>
> I have a question: Are you using soft white wheat berries or hard white
> wheat berries?
>

Hi Heather,

All so-called "pastry" flours (or pastry wheat anything) are soft by
definition.

Tom

"Tom Stanton" > wrote in message =
...

> All so-called "pastry" flours (or pastry wheat anything) are soft by
> definition.

Oh, I see. But are they long or short?

Will shared his bread photos:

<< The breads depicted are from my standard baking cycle. I'm in the oven every
third day, alternating white and wheat loaves. >>

Ed responds:
The loaves you show look spectacular. I'm really surprised that they are from
soft flour, AND have little kneading, AND use no steam to keep them pliable
while they're puffing up in the oven.

Maybe you could share some missing details.
When I make bread I use 20 percent starter, knead for 10-20 minutes by KA
machine, let rise once for 2.5 to 4 hours, form loaves onto parchment, then
rise a second time either warm 80-85 F, or slowly in a 55 F cooler.

In brief terms how do you do it?

Thanks,
Ed Bechtel

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Tom Stanton" > wrote in message
...

> All so-called "pastry" flours (or pastry wheat anything) are soft by
> definition.

> Oh, I see. But are they long or short?

I'm not sure what you mean by long or short? If you mean long or short in
terms of gluten strands, that doesn't seem to be the right word to use. The
length of a strand of gluten is usually only limited by the amount of fat in
a dough - that is, fat inhibits the lengthening of gluten strands (hence the
term shortening). Wheats which have designed for pastries and cakes will
create gluten strands just as long as other doughs, they simply have lower
protein contents. Therefore the gluten will not be as strong. Softer flours
create more delicate doughs which flake and crumble; these doughs are
designed to avoid the high protein chewiness that we (I) so value in a good
lean dough

Tom

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Will shared his bread photos:
>
> Maybe you could share some missing details.
> When I make bread I use 20 percent starter, knead for 10-20 minutes by KA
> machine, let rise once for 2.5 to 4 hours, form loaves onto parchment,
then
> rise a second time either warm 80-85 F, or slowly in a 55 F cooler.
>

Hi Ed,

I know you asked the question of William, but I thought I would add
something.

That is WAY too much kneading in your dough. The trouble with dough kneading
machines (KAs and otherwise) is that they always add energy (heat) to the
dough. Essentially rainsing the dough temperature by adding friction. This
additional heat can break down your gluten proteins (essentially tearing the
bread's muscles). The rule I learned was 4min on speed 1 to incorporate all
ingredients, then 4min on speed 3 to stretch out the gluten. 10min will just
overwork your gluten and could potentially hurt your rises and crumb
production in the oven.

I don't have a KA - the rules I just gave you were the ones we used on the
big mixer, but the principles are the same. At home, I knead everything by
hand - but I also knead very little - usually less than 5 min total. My
process:

1) Mix all ingredients (3min)
2) 2min rest (let the water distribute)
3) 1min kneading
4) 2min rest (let the ware distribute)
5) 2min kneading

Generally by this point I have a nice smooth satiny dough. If I need more
kneading I'll do it - it's virtually impossible to overknead by hand - but
really possible to overknead by machine.

Hope that helps,

Tom

On 4/17/04 10:30 AM, "Tom Stanton" > wrote:

> "Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Will shared his bread photos:
>>
>> Maybe you could share some missing details.
>> When I make bread I use 20 percent starter, knead for 10-20 minutes by KA
>> machine, let rise once for 2.5 to 4 hours, form loaves onto parchment,
> then
>> rise a second time either warm 80-85 F, or slowly in a 55 F cooler.
>>
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> I know you asked the question of William, but I thought I would add
> something.
>
> That is WAY too much kneading in your dough. The trouble with dough kneading
> machines (KAs and otherwise) is that they always add energy (heat) to the
> dough. Essentially rainsing the dough temperature by adding friction. This
> additional heat can break down your gluten proteins (essentially tearing the
> bread's muscles). The rule I learned was 4min on speed 1 to incorporate all
> ingredients, then 4min on speed 3 to stretch out the gluten. 10min will just
> overwork your gluten and could potentially hurt your rises and crumb
> production in the oven.
>
> I don't have a KA - the rules I just gave you were the ones we used on the
> big mixer, but the principles are the same. At home, I knead everything by
> hand - but I also knead very little - usually less than 5 min total. My
> process:
>
> 1) Mix all ingredients (3min)
> 2) 2min rest (let the water distribute)
> 3) 1min kneading
> 4) 2min rest (let the ware distribute)
> 5) 2min kneading
>
> Generally by this point I have a nice smooth satiny dough. If I need more
> kneading I'll do it - it's virtually impossible to overknead by hand - but
> really possible to overknead by machine.
>
> Hope that helps,
>
> Tom
>

Ed,

Like Tom (comments above) I am very careful with my kneading. My white
loaves are 15 to 20 percent white wheat pastry flour, the balance is bread
flour. I use Dakota Maid which is a wonderful brand available in the
mid-west. It's specs are very similar to King Arthur. Typical hydration is
around 68%, but it feels less since the wheat husks absorb some additional
water. I build the sponge to incorporate all of the water. I use about 400
grams of starter in the sponge. The starter is refreshed, doubled from 200
grams, the day before.

Kneading is light, perhaps three minutes. Hydration time between mixing and
kneading, however, is about an hour.

I haven't had to fool with steam or baking stones. The bread is aged a day
in the refrigerator then well proofed before it goes in the (gas) oven. My
proofing test is the well known "finger-poke". If you indent the proofing
dough and it doesn't rebound, it's ready to bake.

I like Kenneth's proofing solution. He modified an old refrigerator with a
dual call thermostat (calls for heating or cooling). I'll get around to that
before I get around to steam. Then I could bake with more precision. Open
air proofing needs some attending.

I have been wanting to mill my own white flour for some time. Has anybody in
the group worked on this? I'm looking for suggestions in the roller/flaker
mill area: what brand? what gap specs? and in the sieving area. Do I go to a
chemical or geological materials supply business for screens...

Will


>
> _______________________________________________
> rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.otherwhen.com/mailman/lis...food.sourdough

"Tom Stanton" > wrote in message=20
...

> I'm not sure what you mean by long or short?=20

I spoke in jest. Some one used the term "shorter dough", to
which I must reply that a longer dough is my preference.

> The length of a strand of gluten is usually only limited by the amount =

> of fat in a dough - that is, fat inhibits the lengthening of gluten =
strands=20
> (hence the term shortening).=20

Silly me. I figured the shortening was Crisco or somesuch.

> Wheats which have designed for pastries and cakes will
> create gluten strands just as long as other doughs, they simply have =
lower
> protein contents. Therefore the gluten will not be as strong. Softer =
flours
> create more delicate doughs which flake and crumble; these doughs are
> designed to avoid the high protein chewiness that we (I) so value in a =
good
> lean dough

That is very interesting.

Who is designing wheat?

I guess I should have said "leaner" when I said "longer"??!

---
DickA

On Sat, 17 Apr 2004 11:47:38 -0500, williamwaller
> wrote:

>Do I go to a
>chemical or geological materials supply business for screens...

Hi Will,

I don't know where you might get the screens, but...

Your comment brought back a funny memory:

Years ago, I bought my first mill. It was a C.S. Bell.

Before ordering, I had written to the manufacturer to ask some
questions.

On the day that I called them to order, wondering if I should also
order extra burrs, I asked, "How long might I expect the burrs to
last?" The gentleman assisting me said "Well that depends on what you
are grinding... (which seemed reasonable enough) but then he went on:
"If you're intending to grind rocks on a daily basis, you will
probably get two years use out of the burrs..."

Not believing my ears, I asked him to repeat, and he did -

"If you're intending to grind rocks..." I interrupted and said
something like "Is that some sort of miller's joke?"

He responded by saying that he assumed that I was a geologist...

Huh?

Well, as it unfolded, he explained that he sold many of his mills to
geologists who used them to grind rocks to "flour" for testing. He
assumed that I was a geologist because when I had written to him
earlier, I apparently wrote on my professional letterhead and it had
my academic title.

In any case, it was one of the stranger conversations I had had to
that point, but I figured, if I can expect two years of use grinding
rocks I can probably get several lifetimes out of the burrs grinding
grain...<g>

All the best, (and, by the way, let us know if you try the fridge with
a dual-call thermostat idea)

--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Dick Adams" > wrote in message
...

"Tom Stanton" > wrote in message
...

*snipped*

> Wheats which have designed for pastries and cakes will
> create gluten strands just as long as other doughs, they simply have lower
> protein contents. Therefore the gluten will not be as strong. Softer
flours
> create more delicate doughs which flake and crumble; these doughs are
> designed to avoid the high protein chewiness that we (I) so value in a
good
> lean dough

> That is very interesting.

> Who is designing wheat?

Well farmers have traditionally been the ones who have cross bread different
types of wheat strands in order to produce different grains. I'm not sure
exactly how they do - though I imagine it is some form of grafting. I wasn't
referring to bio-engineering in the modern genome sense, but just good
ol'fashion cross (in) breeding.

T

Tom Stanton wrote:

> That is WAY too much kneading in your dough. The trouble with dough kneading
> machines (KAs and otherwise) is that they always add energy (heat) to the
> dough. Essentially rainsing the dough temperature by adding friction. This
> additional heat can break down your gluten proteins (essentially tearing the
> bread's muscles). The rule I learned was 4min on speed 1 to incorporate all
> ingredients, then 4min on speed 3 to stretch out the gluten. 10min will just
> overwork your gluten and could potentially hurt your rises and crumb
> production in the oven.

True, but the best way to deal with this is to measure the final
dough temperature. That way you know you're not overheating the
dough regardless of how your mixing it and what equipment you're
using.

--
Reg email: RegForte (at) (that free MS email service) (dot) com

"Reg" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Stanton wrote:
>
> > That is WAY too much kneading in your dough. The trouble with dough
kneading
> > machines (KAs and otherwise) is that they always add energy (heat) to
the
> > dough. Essentially rainsing the dough temperature by adding friction.
This
> > additional heat can break down your gluten proteins (essentially tearing
the
> > bread's muscles). The rule I learned was 4min on speed 1 to incorporate
all
> > ingredients, then 4min on speed 3 to stretch out the gluten. 10min will
just
> > overwork your gluten and could potentially hurt your rises and crumb
> > production in the oven.
>
> True, but the best way to deal with this is to measure the final
> dough temperature. That way you know you're not overheating the
> dough regardless of how your mixing it and what equipment you're
> using.
>

Absolutley, I always recommend a final dough temp, but some people may not
be so interested as marking those ultra specific calculations in the home
environment. Since I don't mix except by hand anyway - its never a problem.

Good caveat - Tom

Dick Adams wrote:
>

>
> Who is designing wheat?
>

Quite a few people are engaged in that task. Many people might
think that flour is the only thing that is designed by mixing
different types of wheat to get a more or less consistant flour
in regard to baking qualities. However there is constant work
being done to improve wheat yeilds and quality. Last I knew,
this was being done mainly by breeding and selecting.

It seems that the rusts and other wheat diseases do their own
selecting and new varities of wheat eventually become subject to
improved strains of rust and such. That drives the need to
search for more resistant wheats.

Regards

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

williamwaller wrote:
>
> I have been wanting to mill my own white flour for some time. Has anybody in
> the group worked on this? I'm looking for suggestions in the roller/flaker
> mill area: what brand? what gap specs? and in the sieving area. Do I go to a
> chemical or geological materials supply business for screens...
>

I have used several mills. I like the Retsel brand mills because
of their adjustability from barely cracked to quite fine. If you
only want fine flour, a whisper mill has good through put.

Unless you have a real comittment to working out, get a mill with
a motor.

I have given up trying to sift the bran out of the flour. I have
not found a good way to do this without wasteing a lot of grain
and time. If you find a good way to end up with mostly white
flour , please post because It is of interest to several that I
know.

The problem with most home mills that I have seen is that you get
wheat grits with the bran still firmly attached to each bit of
grit. Or, the whole thing is powdered to the same size and the
bran falls through with the rest.

I once bought an Italian hand turned gizmo that was said to be a
roller and flaker, but that was mainly ad copy because it did not
do much of anything other than a passing fair job of cracking rye
groats.

Regards,

Charles
--
Charles Perry
Reply to:

** A balanced diet is a cookie in each hand **

Tom Stanton wrote:

<<That is WAY too much kneading in your dough. The trouble with dough kneading
machines (KAs and otherwise) is that they always add energy (heat) to the
dough.
My process:
1) Mix all ingredients (3min)
2) 2min rest (let the water distribute)
3) 1min kneading
4) 2min rest (let the ware distribute)
5) 2min kneading>>

and...
<<... I always recommend a final dough temp, but some people may not
be so interested as marking those ultra specific calculations in the home
environment. >>

Ed responds:

First of all, thank you for your kneading parameters. I was beginning to think
that few people set timers or record their kneading times because I usually see
recipes with "knead until well kneaded" or "I don't know, maybe ten minutes".
Again thank you.

The flours I use most often, Wheatmontana white and whole wheat, are high
protein bread flours that takes a lickin with long machine kneading. My
experience with short kneading cycles is that the final crumb, while a little
more open, is sort of rubbery and does not look professional to me.

When I used less hardy flours including Gold Medal bread flour, the dough
breaks down quickly in the kneading cycle - the hook just smears through the
dough. I've used ice water to improve that problem.

I'm tempted to just try some old fashioned hand kneading per your schedule and
see what happens. Do you use soft wheat flour? Oh, and do you have any photos?

Ed Bechtel

"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
> Tom Stanton wrote:
>
>*snipped*

> I'm tempted to just try some old fashioned hand kneading per your schedule
and
> see what happens. Do you use soft wheat flour? Oh, and do you have any
photos?
>
> Ed Bechtel
>

Hi Ed,

As of yet, no photos, sorry - I'll try to get some.

As to the flour - I use a very high protein locally grown unbleached bread
flour, I buy it from a local bakery. It runs somewhere between 16-20%
protein. Very hard.

Good luck with the kneading,

Tom

On Sun, 18 Apr 2004 14:23:29 -0700, "Tom Stanton"
> wrote:

>"Ed Bechtel" > wrote in message
...
>> Tom Stanton wrote:
>>
>>*snipped*
>
>> I'm tempted to just try some old fashioned hand kneading per your schedule
>and
>> see what happens. Do you use soft wheat flour? Oh, and do you have any
>photos?
>>
>> Ed Bechtel
>>
>
>Hi Ed,
>
>As of yet, no photos, sorry - I'll try to get some.
>
>As to the flour - I use a very high protein locally grown unbleached bread
>flour, I buy it from a local bakery. It runs somewhere between 16-20%
>protein. Very hard.
>
>Good luck with the kneading,
>
>Tom
>

Wow...that is a higher protein count for bread flour than I have ever
come across. Even on The Artisan, their highest (regular/bread flours)
tested is either KA's bread flour at 13-14% or a semolina at 13%+.

The link is at the bottom of the page.
http://www.theartisan.net/flour_summary.htm
or
http://www.baking911.com/pantry_flour,grains.htm

Boron