Hello everyone!

So it looks like I've finally got something going on in my new rye flour
starter. It took a few more days, but now the starter is beginning to rise
and collapse between my current 24 hour feedings. My question is, should I
increase the feeding frequency (I'm thinking about feeding every 12 hours
now) or are 24 hour periods sufficient?

Compared to my previous "starter", it currently is taking longer for the
starter to rise. For instance I feed my starter about 11:30 am this morning
and it has taken about 6-7 hours for it to double whereas the previous
starter would noticeable begin to double in 1-2 hours (I keep them in my
eyesight so I can watch them grow while at my desk). Is it normal for the
rye flour to take this long or should it be faster? Is my starter still
young and will speed up with more feedings/care?

Thanks for all the help.

-Thomas C.

Thomas C. wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> So it looks like I've finally got something going on in my new rye flour
> starter. It took a few more days, but now the starter is beginning to rise
> and collapse between my current 24 hour feedings. My question is, should I
> increase the feeding frequency (I'm thinking about feeding every 12 hours
> now) or are 24 hour periods sufficient?
>
> Compared to my previous "starter", it currently is taking longer for the
> starter to rise. For instance I feed my starter about 11:30 am this morning
> and it has taken about 6-7 hours for it to double whereas the previous
> starter would noticeable begin to double in 1-2 hours (I keep them in my
> eyesight so I can watch them grow while at my desk). Is it normal for the
> rye flour to take this long or should it be faster?
My FG rye starters rarely "double". Actually, the term "doubling"
used frequently here has no meaning for me in connection with my
starters (currently only FG rye).
Who cares if the starter "doubles"? To me this depends on several
factors - container shape and size, starter hydration, flour used,
fermentation stage.

If it's active and when I deflate it, it will come back - that's a
criteria. Smell, consistency - they will get more "liquid" when
fermenting longer - are criteria.

> Is my starter still
> young and will speed up with more feedings/care?
>
>
It probably will change. I think it's important to keep a constant
routine and maybe take notes. If it will be speeding up and behaving to
fulfill your expectations is another question. You sure can influence
starter properties by varying parameters, mainly temperature, if you
want to go into that.

There is no "should" with starers. They come with certain properties and
that's it. You can tweak it if you want.

Sam

Sam wrote:
> Thomas C. wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone!
>>
>> So it looks like I've finally got something going on in my new rye flour
>> starter. It took a few more days, but now the starter is beginning to rise
>> and collapse between my current 24 hour feedings. My question is, should I
>> increase the feeding frequency (I'm thinking about feeding every 12 hours
>> now) or are 24 hour periods sufficient?
>>

I've never found feeding a starter at room temperature less than twice a
day to be sufficient. It's a living organism and it needs to be fed
regularly. If you feed it less, you will inevitably get into trouble.

> My FG rye starters rarely "double". Actually, the term "doubling"
> used frequently here has no meaning for me in connection with my
> starters (currently only FG rye).
> Who cares if the starter "doubles"? To me this depends on several
> factors - container shape and size, starter hydration, flour used,
> fermentation stage.
>

I care! With wheat, I find that if a starter is so lethargic that it
can not double it's own size, I find I can not depend on it to double
the size of a loaf of wheat bread. Your mileage may vary.

I don't understand your comment that the starter should collapse twice
on its own. Who cares if it collapses?

>> Is my starter still
>> young and will speed up with more feedings/care?
>>
> It probably will change. I think it's important to keep a constant
> routine and maybe take notes. If it will be speeding up and behaving to
> fulfill your expectations is another question. You sure can influence
> starter properties by varying parameters, mainly temperature, if you
> want to go into that.
>

Notes are especially important if you have more than one starter or your
memory is flaky. I find when I have a slow starter, feeding it three
times a day, enough to triple its size, will cause it to perk up and
speed up. Normally, I feed twice a day. However, there are some
limitations imposed by the strains of yeast and bacteria in your
starter. To use an analogy - it doesn't matter how I'm trained, I'll
never be a star gymnast or track star. I just don't have those genes.
Can I be trained to run better than I do? Sure. Similarly, tweaking
your starter can help you get more of what you want out of it. But, if
your starter has the "wrong" strains of critters in it, your bread won't
get as sour as bread made with a starter that has the "right" strain in
it. (Right and wrong aren't being used to denote moral values, just
appropriateness to the desired outcome.)


> There is no "should" with starers. They come with certain properties and
> that's it. You can tweak it if you want.
>
Exactly. Within limits, anyway.

Mike

--
Mike Avery mavery at mail dot otherwhen dot com
part time baker ICQ 16241692
networking guru AIM, yahoo and skype mavery81230
wordsmith

A Randomly Selected Thought For The Day:
Hane's Law: There is no limit to how bad things can get.

On 2007-09-12, Mike Avery > wrote:
>
> I've never found feeding a starter at room temperature less than twice a
> day to be sufficient. It's a living organism and it needs to be fed
> regularly. If you feed it less, you will inevitably get into trouble.
[...]

I feed it once a day, most of the time, but I feed at very high
multiples (small inoculum). During the summer, when room temperature
is around 76-78F, I do 3g starter + 20g H2O + 20g flour, which is x14
(7% inoculum). During winter (room temp ~= 66F) I do 5g+20g+20g (x9,
11%). This gives it plenty of food to munch on for 24 hours. In
fact, every now and then I forget to feed for a day -- and sometimes
even two days in a row. The starter clearly does not like this, but
fully recovers within a couple of feedings. If I did that all the
time, it would surely die, but once a month or so seems to be fine.
My starter has not changed its character in many moons.

I maintain 100% hydration with carbon-filtered water and home-milled
whole rye flour. With whole rye, 100% hydration is stiff enough to
hold its shape. Also, whole rye has a lot of acid buffering capacity,
so my method might not work well with white flour starters. I also
don't recommend it with a newly-started starter, as your new culture
might not be tough enough to fend off foreign invaders with such a
small inoculum. Work your way down to the 7% inoculum over a period
of months.

--
Randall

Mike Avery wrote:
> Sam wrote:
> [...]
>> My FG rye starters rarely "double". Actually, the term "doubling"
>> used frequently here has no meaning for me in connection with my
>> starters (currently only FG rye).
>> Who cares if the starter "doubles"? To me this depends on several
>> factors - container shape and size, starter hydration, flour used,
>> fermentation stage.
>>
>>
>
> I care! With wheat,
I was talking rye: "FG rye". Not sure why you bring that up.
> I find that if a starter is so lethargic that it
> can not double it's own size, I find I can not depend on it to double
> the size of a loaf of wheat bread. Your mileage may vary.
>
>
Isn't that whole thread about a rye starter?
> I don't understand your comment that the starter should collapse twice
> on its own. Who cares if it collapses?
>
Oh Mike - where did you find that? I did a search on rec.food.sourdough
in Google Groups and the only message coming up with this string
"collapse twice" was over 5 years ago:

Newsgroups: rec.food.sourdough
From: Samartha >
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 21:07:01 -0600
Local: Wed, Jun 12 2002 9:07 pm
Subject: after 48 hours


Maybe the search mechanism is hosed?


>
S.

On 13 Sep, 05:21, Sam > wrote:

> ... I don't understand your comment that the starter should collapse twice
> > on its own. Who cares if it collapses?
>
> Oh Mike - where did you find that? I did a search on rec.food.sourdough
> in Google Groups and the only message coming up with this string
> "collapse twice" was over 5 years ago:
>

>
> Maybe the search mechanism is hosed?
>
>
>
> S.

The problem with a search mechanism is it will only search the exact
words you type in. It is my understanding also that you advise that a
starter should be stirred after it has fallen back to rise and fall
again etc.

Maybe my memory is better than yours Samratha. Perhaps you could
consult your notes, you might find that that is what you do.

Jim

>> I don't understand your comment that the starter should collapse twice
>> on its own. Who cares if it collapses?
>>
>>
> Oh Mike - where did you find that? I did a search on rec.food.sourdough
> in Google Groups and the only message coming up with this string
> "collapse twice" was over 5 years ago:
>
>
I think that Mike Avery was responding to the fellow you quoted in your
message:

> So it looks like I've finally got something going on in my new rye flour
> starter. It took a few more days, but now the starter is beginning to rise
> and collapse between my current 24 hour feedings. My question is, should I
> increase the feeding frequency (I'm thinking about feeding every 12 hours
> now) or are 24 hour periods sufficient?

--
Jeff

Thomas C. wrote:
> Hello everyone!
>
> So it looks like I've finally got something going on in my new rye flour
> starter. It took a few more days, but now the starter is beginning to rise
> and collapse between my current 24 hour feedings. My question is, should I
> increase the feeding frequency (I'm thinking about feeding every 12 hours
> now) or are 24 hour periods sufficient?
>
> Compared to my previous "starter", it currently is taking longer for the
> starter to rise. For instance I feed my starter about 11:30 am this morning
> and it has taken about 6-7 hours for it to double whereas the previous
> starter would noticeable begin to double in 1-2 hours (I keep them in my
> eyesight so I can watch them grow while at my desk). Is it normal for the
> rye flour to take this long or should it be faster? Is my starter still
> young and will speed up with more feedings/care?
>
> Thanks for all the help.
>
> -Thomas C.
>
>
Hey Thomas....good luck with it! A few weeks ago, I found a VitaMix
machine at a thrift store, for the tremendous price of $39.95 Cdn and as
well, because of my advanced age, got another 30% off that! So, away I
went to my local health food store, bought some rye grain, and wheat
grain, and off home to make flours. Decided to make a rye flour SD
starter a la Samartha. The second day, this stuff was doing the same,
doubling and collapsing, so I simply continued with Sam's instructions,
and, and now have a wonderful, really lived starter, which we have
already used some of the make a loaf of WW bread, also with freshly
ground grain. Had to use extra gluten of course, that is my wife's
province, she bakes, I cook. I have already dryed, ground and sent off
to a friend, some of that starter. Have fun with it. Cheers,
old Doug

Mike Avery wrote:
> [..]
> I don't understand your comment that the starter should collapse twice
> on its own. Who cares if it collapses?
>
This applies to FG rye - adding water and flour as constant (not
exponential) feedings to create a new starter "from scratch":

A - collapsing: Indicates that activity has stopped and no more gas is
produced. With FG rye and 100 % hydration, there is insufficient
structural support to maintain gas containment when fermentation occurs
- another breakdown of gas supporting structure. When gas production =
fermentation stops, it collapses.

B - collapsing twice: The first burst of activity (in most cases with
rye and maybe other flours) is unrelated to sourdough organisms and
other organisms produce gas. Once the first burst of activity with
non-sourdough organisms is over, there will be a "collapse" where the
volume will decrease. Once this happened, the "real" sourdough organisms
will multiply more and take over. With constant feedings and exponential
growth of organisms there will be a point where they can't produce any
more gas and this will be the second collapse where the SD organisms
develop so much acidity that they can't grow any more.

I got this from a book I browsed through in a book store checking out
sourdough related bread books. It stated something like once a new
starter collapses twice, you can use it. In the above context, it makes
sense to me.

Who cares? Except me, when I ever get into growing a new starter and the
guy who emailed me recently about this, I would not have a clue.


Sam