1. Is there a formula for translating mixing times to an approximate
equivalent of hand-kneading time? I've been trying to follow
Hamelman's recipies to the letter, (especially those that use an
Autolyse technique) only without the benefit of a mixer, I'm usually
stabbing in in the dark trying to guess how to keep my dough properly
hydrated and not over-kneaded.

Of course, my results now are often definitely under-kneaded and
developed, and my crumb, as a result, suffers.

2. When using an autolyse stage, what is your bare minimum amount of
incorporation to enable the autolyse to do its job? Either I get
overzealous at this stage and end up with a clumpy, partially-kneaded
ball of dough, or my autolyse seems too dry to actually begin any
gluten development. (And I just had a thought...is it advisable to do
an autolyse at all when kneading by hand?)

Finally:
Next paycheck, I'm investing in a mixer since I want to return to
making bread with some level of consistency. Is there any reason to
get anything fancier than the Kitchenaid Artisan stand mixer that's on
sale just about everywhere right now? I'll primarily use it for bread
and probably for some other pastries, but that's about it.

> Finally:
> Next paycheck, I'm investing in a mixer since I want to return to
> making bread with some level of consistency. Is there any reason to
> get anything fancier than the Kitchenaid Artisan stand mixer that's on
> sale just about everywhere right now? I'll primarily use it for bread
> and probably for some other pastries, but that's about it.

Avoid it like the plague!! If you intend making bread with it, it won't
last 5 minutes! GoogleSearch Kitchenaid in this group or in
alt.bread.recipes and you'll read tale after tale of woe!
Save up for a few extra months and buy a Bosch, Electrolux, DeLonghi, Viking
or the new Cuisinart. They all have the power to make bread.
Graham

I wouldn't recommend to do an autolyse when mixing by hand, because it
is really not easy to mix salt and yeast to a dough by hand.

The easiest way to mix by hand I would say is:

Mix all your ingredients just until it comes together. Then leave it
to rest for 5 minutes. Then mix it a bit more, then leave it to rest
for 10 minutes, then put on table and knead a bit (10 seconds) then
rest it for 15 minutes, then knead it for 15 seconds
I learnt this method when reading "The hand made loaf" by Dan Lepard.
When I say knead, it really means fold it over itself a few times. You
can lightly oil your table so it doesnt stick, if you are making a wet
dough.

Of course you don't have to follow this to the letter, but it's a good
way to start. Then you just get used to leaving resting periods
between kneading and do this naturally until your dough looks perfect.
It works the same as an autolyse. You give time for the flour to
absord the water. (or the water to hydrate the flour )

I personally think that if someone is sweating off kneading is bread,
that means he's doing something wrong I can't imagine how many
bread recipes say: "knead for 20minutes" and how many times I actually
did it. Such a fool I've been. I feel sad for all the people who still
do this So let's spread the word!

As for the mixer. I think unless you make LOTS of bread, it is a waste
of money to buy one. It is better to spend time perfectionning your
hand mixing, and be more in touch with the bread you are creating.
Machines are for commercial bakeries who make hundreds of kilos of
bread, or people who don't have the time to make it by hand.
(restaurants for example) But a home baker HAS the time, otherwise he
would be buying his bread init

HAppy baking!

"graham" > wrote in message news:2Qzhj.52888$uV6.21339@pd7urf1no...

> Avoid (Kitchen Aid mixer) like the plague!! If you intend making bread
> with it, it won't last 5 minutes! GoogleSearch Kitchenaid in this group
> or in > alt.bread.recipes and you'll read tale after tale of woe!
> Save up for a few extra months and buy a Bosch, Electrolux, DeLonghi, Viking
> or the new Cuisinart.

Oh, yes, and while we are on the subject: You will definitely need to buy
an SUV if you are going to shop at the supermarket for 5 lb bags of flour.

> Oh, yes, and while we are on the subject: *You will definitely need to buy
> an SUV if you are going to shop at the supermarket for 5 lb bags of flour. *

In article <a40efaf4-14fa-41b8-9f13-
>,
says...
> 1. Is there a formula for translating mixing times to an approximate
> equivalent of hand-kneading time? I've been trying to follow
> Hamelman's recipies to the letter, (especially those that use an
> Autolyse technique) only without the benefit of a mixer, I'm usually
> stabbing in in the dark trying to guess how to keep my dough properly
> hydrated and not over-kneaded.

I have NEVER seen anyone overknead their dough by hand. As to formulas,
no. You need to evaluate the dough's development and work on the dough
until it is properly developed.

In teaching a good number of baking classes I find that many people have
no idea how to effectively knead dough, but that they are sure they are
doing it the right way. I also find people who think they can't knead
dough because of physical ailments. In classes, I find if I can get
them to listen, I can get them to knead effectively.

I put together some videos on kneading and they are online at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/kneadingconverting.html In general, I find
that most breads are done being kneaded in about 15 minutes, of which 10
minutes is actual kneading time.

However, kneading is just one way to develop dough. I also like the
stretch and fold technique, which I show at
http://www.sourdoughhome.com/stretchandfold.html A quick warning - both
of these are LARGE pages with lots of videos on them. If you have a
slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.

> 2. When using an autolyse stage, what is your bare minimum amount of
> incorporation to enable the autolyse to do its job? Either I get
> overzealous at this stage and end up with a clumpy, partially-kneaded
> ball of dough, or my autolyse seems too dry to actually begin any
> gluten development. (And I just had a thought...is it advisable to do
> an autolyse at all when kneading by hand?)

I have no trouble doing an autolyse by hand. However, I make my
autolyse at 100% hydration, take care to make sure all the flour has
been wetted, and only let about 1/3 of the recipe's flour go through the
autolyse. I'm not entirely convinced that an autolyse adds anything to
the bread when you are using sourdough.

>
> Finally:
> Next paycheck, I'm investing in a mixer since I want to return to
> making bread with some level of consistency. Is there any reason to
> get anything fancier than the Kitchenaid Artisan stand mixer that's on
> sale just about everywhere right now? I'll primarily use it for bread
> and probably for some other pastries, but that's about it.

I strongly suggest learners knead by hand until they have a good idea of
what the dough should feel like, and how it feels as it develops. From
your comments, I don't think you are there yet.

As to mixers, there are consistent reports here that the new KitchenAid
mixers are not as well made as the older ones. I have an ancient
KitchenAid and am very happy with it. I've seen, and heard, newer ones
and would not own one. Most of the tales of woe about KitchenAid mixers
are from people who didn't read the instruction manual.

The manual gives you three pieces of relevant information. How many
cups of flour the mixer can safely mix into dough. That if you are
using any flour other than white flour, the load limit is cut in half.
And that you may only knead for a certain length of time, do only so
many batches back to back, and that the mixer needs to rest after that
many batches for a certain length of time.

Usually, the people who have mixers die are making their 4th batch of
bread back to back, making whole wheat bread, and the size of the batch
is about 3x the maximum white flour load. Yes, there are people who are
doing it by the book who have problems, but not many of them.

Still, the load limits on the KitchenAid mixers are not very large. The
largest mixer will let you use 14 cups of white flour. This is about 6
pounds of dough. If you want to make a whole grain, or partially whole
grain, bread, you need to cut that in half, to about 3 pounds. You're
taking up a lot of kitchen counter space to make 2 to 4 loaves of bread.

The fundamental issues faced by the KitchenAid mixer is that it is using
a variable speed motor and asking it to deliver maximum torque at low
speed. This issue is shared by the Viking, DeLonghi and Kenwood mixers.
They may be better engineered (though I once saw Bobby Flay and Emiril
trying to get the bowl off of a Viking mixer without success. They
wound up picking the machine up and pouring the contents of the bowl
out). If you are selecting a mixer for making bread, I think the two
best contenders are the Electrolux and Bosh mixers. Having owned both,
I think the Bosch heats the dough too much. I sold mine on eBay. I
still have my Electrolux and would not willingly be parted from it.

Mike

viince wrote:
> I wouldn't recommend to do an autolyse when mixing by hand, because it
> is really not easy to mix salt and yeast to a dough by hand.
>
Is it so - when pre-growing the yeast for a short time in some of the
dough water and dissolving the salt in the larger part of the dough water?

I have not done the yeast in that manner with bread, but do the salt
dissolving all the time - works great!

Sam

>

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:05:16 -0700, Mike Avery
> wrote:

>If you have a
>slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.

Howdy,

The coffee will make the slow connection feel like a faster
connection...
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:05:16 -0700, Mike Avery
> > wrote:
>
>
>> If you have a
>> slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.
>>
>
> Howdy,
>
> The coffee will make the slow connection feel like a faster
> connection...
>
You think so? Isn't one getting more speedy on caffeine and on a slow
connection impatient?

Maybe you are thinking of feeding an espresso into the wire to speed it
up - if that works, please give a holler.

Sam

"Mike Avery" > wrote in message ...

> I have an ancient KitchenAid and am very happy with it.
> I've seen, and heard, newer ones and would not own one.

What do you suppose makes the new ones so bad as you imply?
Could we get a little bit technical here, and lose the rumors?

> Most of the tales of woe about KitchenAid mixers are from
> people who didn't read the instruction manual.

Does that mean they can be conditionally good?

Here is my main instruction for the K45:
Don't try to mix thick dough, and let the head float in any
case. Is that instruction in the manual? I don't think so.
(For thick dough, mix thin or medium dough, and work
in additional flour later, by hand.) (Or do all by hand.)

My K45 is old, but that advice should be good for
new ones. If not, why not? Would KitchenAid go to some
trouble to redesign their classic design to make it less reliable?
Probably today some parts are Chinese. Do you suppose that
Chinese make bad parts? Who knows, maybe they make parts
out of lead.

Probably there are lots of Chinese parts in your SUV. After
you dissect your KA mixer for the objective report that you should
provide, in fairness, after the way you have demeaned KA, you better
go through the mechanical structure of your vehicle.

Do new KitchenAid mixers still have the black nylon pinion that
breaks before anything else feels strain, and is cheap and real easy
to replace? That is a real plus, among DIY folks, and should be
mentioned, in fairness, by KA badmouthers.

--
Dicky

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:27:12 -0700, Sam
> wrote:

>Maybe you are thinking of feeding an espresso into the wire to speed it
>up - if that works, please give a holler.
>
>Sam

Hi Sam,

Did you know that espresso is lower in caffeine than other
forms of brewed coffee...?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 10:27:12 -0700, Sam
> > wrote:
>
>
>> Maybe you are thinking of feeding an espresso into the wire to speed it
>> up - if that works, please give a holler.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Hi Sam,
>
> Did you know that espresso is lower in caffeine than other
> forms of brewed coffee...?
>
>
No, I did not - Espresso is the remedy for American coffee for me -
availability is fairly good in this country.

I challenge your statement of Espresso having less caffeine than
American standard coffee - not the Espresso I brew and the coffee I get
served in restaurants!

Real coffee maybe.

If you don't know the movie "Bagdad Café"
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095801/ get it - hits the nail on this
issue I think in the first 15 minutes or so.

But you did not say how you feed the coffee into the wire and what has
all that to do with the famous SD?

OT-police will show any moment - be careful!

Sam

"Dick Adams" > wrote:

>My K45 is old, but that advice should be good for
>new ones. If not, why not? Would KitchenAid go to some
>trouble to redesign their classic design to make it less reliable?


Many folks thing the answer is a resounding YES. Making it cheaper is the
object; less reliable is just a bonus.

My own story; a sample of one; disregard if you wish:

I bought by mail order a KitchenAid 525 watt humongo mixer. When it
arrived, I unboxed and ran it.... made horrible screaming noises. Now, I
know what a dry bearing sounds like! Called customer support and the nice
lady said, "Well, how many cups of flour are you trying to mix; the machine
is pretty noisy you know."
Replied: "Five or six; well below the advertised capacity. And here;
listen! Held the phone next to mixer and turned on."

"Oooh, that's not right. We'll send you another."

Which they did. But it never had the power I expected of a $400 machine,
though I never broke it kneading sourdough. It was less than a year old
when it fell victim to my remodeling non-plan, the kitchen fire method. It
was not replaced, and I bought an Oster kitchen center (replacing one also
destroyed) on E-bay. It is not nearly as powerful as the KA, but doesn't
overheat, make nasty noises, or generally bitch and moan when I make dough.
So, I'm still looking, a bit hampered by the fact that the Oster is capable
enough for now.

I'm keeping an eye out for the older Hobart mixers at garage sales, etc in
the meantime. Like so many fine old products, KA is just a name that has
long outlived its reputation.

But that's just my opinion.

I may be wrong.


Gary Woods AKA K2AHC- PGP key on request, or at home.earthlink.net/~garygarlic
Zone 5/6 in upstate New York, 1420' elevation. NY WO G

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 11:13:12 -0700, Sam
> wrote:

>I challenge your statement of Espresso having less caffeine than
>American standard coffee - not the Espresso I brew and the coffee I get
>served in restaurants!

Hi Sam,

It is easy to confuse the desire to inform with the desire
to convince.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Mixers are for lazy people anyway, rich and lazy.
It's like taking the car to go to the corner shop.
I'm watching ya'all.

On Jan 11, 10:54 pm, viince > wrote:

> I'm watching ya'all.

Viince...

Watch this...

http://www.myplot.org/oven/

Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
page on the right.

Will

On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 10:25:31 -0800 (PST), Will
> wrote:

>
>http://www.myplot.org/oven/
>
>Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
>link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
>page on the right.
>
>Will

Hi Will,

Those pix reminded me of something:

Perhaps 15 years ago, I decided to look for a used 20 quart
Hobart.

Shortly after that, my wife and I were driving to a
supermarket, and she mentioned her concern about just how
big the mixer would be should I ever find one.

Minutes later, I had an idea, and strolled into the market's
bakery and to my delight, saw that they had a 120 quart
Hobart.

With the permission of the baker, I invited my wife in to
take a look. With a straight face, I explained that this was
similar to the unit that I hoped to find. (As you may know,
a 120 is about the size of a locomotive.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Jan 12, 1:08 pm, Kenneth

> Those pix reminded me of something:

Good story, Kenneth. My wife would love a big mixer <g>.

Will

In article >,
says...
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:05:16 -0700, Mike Avery
> > wrote:
>
> >If you have a
> >slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.

>
> The coffee will make the slow connection feel like a faster
> connection...

That wasn't my intent. My thought is by the time you are done getting
the coffee, the downloads will be finished.

Mike

Mike Avery wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>
>> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:05:16 -0700, Mike Avery
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> If you have a
>>> slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.
>>>
>
>
>> The coffee will make the slow connection feel like a faster
>> connection...
>>
>
> That wasn't my intent. My thought is by the time you are done getting
> the coffee, the downloads will be finished.
>
>
Isn't the commonly used advice for this: "have a cup of tea"?
(I am learning)
Maybe not...

Sam

On 12 Jan, 18:25, Will > wrote:
> On Jan 11, 10:54 pm, viince > wrote:
>
> > I'm watching ya'all.
>
> Viince...
>
> Watch this...
>
> http://www.myplot.org/oven/
>
> Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
> link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
> page on the right.
>
> Will

Aren't you showing viince a webpage he's on? I think he might know
that. Or are you pointing out the irony of 'getting to the car to go
to the corner shop' and burning all that wood to bake a couple of
loaves?'

Jim

On Jan 12, 6:25 pm, Will > wrote:
> On Jan 11, 10:54 pm, viince > wrote:
>
> > I'm watching ya'all.

Ha, when I read Vince's post I thought BUT what if you have a mixer
that is nice to watch?

http://www.cannelle.com/LABO/materie...s/petrin.shtml

which is french review of pro choice in mixers - in which an advantage
of Artofex style "plunging arms" mixer is listed as

"Attractif lorsqu'il est placé à la vue de la clientèle (rappelle le
travail humain)"

i.e. Attractive when placed in the view of the clientèle (recalling
human action)

so, Vince, is this is a sufficient excuse to use mixer even if you
have 5 kilo or less dough to mix?

unfortunately for the rest of you although the original Swiss Artofex
company is still operating, and two Italian and one Spanish make
similar action mixers as far as I know no models that would get
through the door of a normal kitchen are in production any more. Mine
is a lab bench model, ph0, in Artofex nomenclature the 0 is normally a
numeral representing the number of kilos the model can handle x 10,
going up to ph30. Mine was supplied to the naval branch of "the
Government Chemist" in 1974 in Gosport UK at what was known in
mediaeval times as Weevil Yard, presumably for testing ship's biscuit
recipe - maybe some tough ingredients as one of my bowls is very worn.

anyway if any of you would like to keep an eye on Vince check
http://www.myplot.org/oven/vids/bandb.html and
http://www.myplot.org/oven/gallery.p...e=1&project=27

laters
Andy Forbes

ps
as Vince knows I think, there is other reason for autolyse other than
just hydrating gluten (as he wrote I think), which is that if you have
some addition to dough (pre adding starter and salt) that adds extra
starch digesting enzymes i.e. amylases to a predominantly wheat dough,
either diastatic malt extract or rye flour, autolyse gives time for
the enzymes to go to work so laying out a sumptuous sugary banquet for
yeasts and LBs when they are added. But if autolyse is for this
purpose I suggest much longer than would be normal, maybe minimum 2
hours

> Viince...
>
> Watch this...
>
> http://www.myplot.org/oven/
>
> Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
> link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
> page on the right.
>
> Will

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 01:42:22 +0000, graham wrote:

> Avoid it (KitchenAid Stand Mixer) like the plague!! If you intend making
> bread with it, it won't last 5 minutes! GoogleSearch Kitchenaid in this
> group or in alt.bread.recipes and you'll read tale after tale of woe!
> Save up for a few extra months and buy a Bosch, Electrolux, DeLonghi,
> Viking or the new Cuisinart. They all have the power to make bread.

This is where I start to feel like a poor relative.

12 months after a KitchenAid mixer finally made it to Australia - now
available in very upmarket stores - I am now told to avoid it like the
plague,

For the hell of it, I did a search on Electrolux mixers. Ziltch in
Australia; looks impressive at Amazon (US).

However, my ancient Kenwood Chef (KM210) still works and kneads about 3.5
lb of dough (after autolyse). Which is lucky because most of its
(frequently-used) attachments are no longer available in Australia,

I note that Kenwood is now <made|marketed> by DeLonghi - which is regarded
as a "good guy".

Any DeLonghi advice available - since. sooner or later, the Kenwood will
breath its last?

Felix Karpfen



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

On Jan 13, 5:46 pm, TG > wrote:
> On 12 Jan, 18:25, Will > wrote:
>
> > On Jan 11, 10:54 pm, viince > wrote:
>
> > > I'm watching ya'all.
>
> > Viince...
>
> > Watch this...
>
> >http://www.myplot.org/oven/
>
> > Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
> > link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
> > page on the right.
>
> > Will
>
> Aren't you showing viince a webpage he's on? I think he might know
> that. Or are you pointing out the irony of 'getting to the car to go
> to the corner shop' and burning all that wood to bake a couple of
> loaves?'
>
> Jim

actually the links to B&B pics were removed for a couple of months
till yesterday in case of industrial espionage so maybe Will didn't
realise the above. As for the pros and cons of burning wood versus
burning fossil fuels to make bread I thought that debate has been
aired and put to bed before.

yours
andy

On 13 Jan, 21:57, atty > wrote:
> On Jan 13, 5:46 pm, TG > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 12 Jan, 18:25, Will > wrote:
>
> > > On Jan 11, 10:54 pm, viince > wrote:
>
> > > > I'm watching ya'all.
>
> > > Viince...
>
> > > Watch this...
>
> > >http://www.myplot.org/oven/
>
> > > Andy posts occasionally. Although this is a cob oven page there's a
> > > link to an extraordinary mixer. Look about 2/3 of the way down the
> > > page on the right.
>
> > > Will
>
> > Aren't you showing viince a webpage he's on? I think he might know
> > that. Or are you pointing out the irony of 'getting to the car to go
> > to the corner shop' and burning all that wood to bake a couple of
> > loaves?'
>
> > Jim
>
> actually the links to B&B pics were removed for a couple of months
> till yesterday in case of industrial espionage so maybe Will didn't
> realise the above. As for the pros and cons of burning wood versus
> burning fossil fuels to make bread I thought that debate has been
> aired and put to bed before.
>
> yours
> andy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Oh, discussed at RFS = world sorted. There was me thinking this was a
sourdough news group. lol. But I really wasn't being serious and I am
fully aware of the carbon cycle. I really couldn't give two hoots if
you burn down Epping Forrest to bake your bread, well okay perhaps I
do but you get the point.

Jim

On 14 Jan, 11:25, TG > wrote:

> Oh, discussed at RFS = world sorted. There was me thinking this was a
> sourdough news group. lol. But I really wasn't being serious and I am
> fully aware of the carbon cycle. I really couldn't give two hoots if
> you burn down Epping Forrest to bake your bread, well okay perhaps I
> do but you get the point.
>
> Jim- Hide quoted text -
>
Oh, by the way Atty, where do you get your would from living in the
middle of London? Clapham Common? Brockwell Park? Or is it transported
in on the back of a lorry?

Jim

Andy: Artofex is the exception to the rule, just because it looks so
cool
They should try more to make cool looking mixers that handle the dough
nicely, that would be cool.

> Oh, by the way Atty, where do you get your would from living in the
> middle of London? Clapham Common? Brockwell Park? Or is it transported
> in on the back of a lorry?


You can get wood from tree surgeons.
The wood we get in my company is from some forest in Kent. It's these
kind of forest where they keep trees growing while they cut the
others, I don't know the name for this, renewable?

BTW:

Anybody realized the person who created this topic didn't reply, which
means he probably didn't read any of the posts, which means everybody
here is just wasting time
I love this place!

On 15 Jan, 00:42, viince > wrote:
> > Oh, by the way Atty, where do you get your would from living in the
> > middle of London? Clapham Common? Brockwell Park? Or is it transported
> > in on the back of a lorry?
>
> You can get wood from tree surgeons.
> The wood we get in my company is from some forest in Kent. It's these
> kind of forest where they keep trees growing while they cut the
> others, I don't know the name for this, renewable?
>
> BTW:
>
> Anybody realized the person who created this topic didn't reply, which
> means he probably didn't read any of the posts, which means everybody
> here is just wasting time
> I love this place!

Yeah or just an ungrateful get. Unfortunately I find that's the norm
wtih names you don't reccognise. Still who cares with a log on like
'raise the dead' he's probably kicked the mixing bucket.
Jim

> Oh, by the way Atty, where do you get your would from living in the
> middle of London? Clapham Common? Brockwell Park? Or is it transported
> in on the back of a lorry?

for my oven where I want wood that will burn quick I collect from
builder's skips with my bicycle trailer http://www.myplot.org/oven/images/ov/ov36.jpg.
For my wood burning stove at home a neighbour's front garden is used
by a tree surgeon as convenient local dump - as you may or may not
know London has more trees and more green space than your average big
city - the thing is to get enough of wood from right trees stashed
away before summer ready for next winter so it has enough time to get
seasoned. So its a big hassle to do this and clearly not everybody can
or should convert to wood burning in London but it makes sense for me
from quite a few points of view.

yours
andy

> Jim

Hi Atty,

then I applaud you. Like you said not everyone could do that or
should, wouldn't want to go back to the pea souper days. But good on
yer for the effort.

Humbly

Jim

On 15 Jan, 10:23, atty > wrote:

on the back of a lorry?
>
> for my oven where I want wood that will burn quick I collect from
> builder's skips with my bicycle trailerhttp://www.myplot.org/oven/images/ov/ov36.jpg.
> For my wood burning stove at home a neighbour's front garden is used
> by a tree surgeon as convenient local dump - as you may or may not
> know London has more trees and more green space than your average big
> city - the thing is to get enough of wood from right trees stashed
> away before summer ready for next winter so it has enough time to get
> seasoned. So its a big hassle to do this and clearly not everybody can
> or should convert to wood burning in London but it makes sense for me
> from quite a few points of view.
>
> yours
> andy

> then I applaud you. Like you said not everyone could do that or
> should, wouldn't want to go back to the pea souper days. But good on
> yer for the effort.
>

after log splitting session today with my maul and wedges appropriate
time to say

Cheers Jim, written like a gentleman, refreshing

yours
atty

On 13 Jan 2008 20:15:45 GMT, Felix Karpfen >
wrote:

>12 months after a KitchenAid mixer finally made it to Australia - now
>available in very upmarket stores - I am now told to avoid it like the
>plague,


Felix, for what it may (or may not) be worth, I have a Kitchen Aid
Artisan and am very happy with it. I've used it to make bread
according to the recipes in the manual that came with the mixer
several times. One is for french bread baguettes and the other is for
a plain white bread. Both have come out well, very consistently.

Otherwise, it does an excellent job of creaming sugar and shortening
for making cookies. It does a wonderful job of making batters for
sweet breads. In short, it does everything it's made to do.

I do NOT use it for making my regular sourdough loaf. I shoot for 600
grams of dough to bake in a 8.5" x 3.5" pan. I bake only for my wife
and myself and that's all we can eat before it gets dry. I think the
batch would be too small for the mixer to accomplish good kneading.
And, I've learned that using a mixer for the quantities of dough I'm
mixing is NOT the best way to go. Hand mix and stretch and fold work
great!

As has been pointed out before, the manual says to cut the quanty of
flour in half if using whole-grain flours. That would get down to
about 3.5 cups - still more than I would use for my standard small
loaf.

In summary, the mixer performs as advertised. It's not advertised to
be able to make large quantities of dough, and trying to do so would
probably result in dissatisfaction. If you want a light-duty, home
mixer, the Kitchen Aids are great. If you want to mix a lot of dough,
something else would probably work better.

Best wishes,
Burney




Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

BH wrote:
> [..]
>
> In summary, the mixer performs as advertised.
Mine (KA 650, strongest available at that time) did not - the low amount
of 650 g bread dough (please figure out the cup amounts yourself -
hydration maybe >65%) ran under settings shown in manual, stressed the
machine so much that it started to smoke and had to be turned off. The
noise it made to hear was painful.
Having this mixer was an ongoing frustration!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR2bxLW1MCE

Maybe the new dough hook they have now is better. Would it match the
Electrolux Assistent where I can make 3,500 - 4,000 g dough in one load
- never!

Would I ever buy a machine from Kichen Aid again - no!
Would I ever recommend using a KA machine for bread making - no!
Would I recommend staying away from using KA mixers for bread making -
absolutely!

Not sure why this "KA is <something positive>" comes up here again and
again.

Sam

On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:52:54 -0700, Sam
> wrote:


>Mine (KA 650, strongest available at that time) did not - the low amount
>of 650 g bread dough (please figure out the cup amounts yourself -
>hydration maybe >65%) ran under settings shown in manual, stressed the
>machine so much that it started to smoke and had to be turned off. The
>noise it made to hear was painful.
>Having this mixer was an ongoing frustration!

Wow! If that had been my experience, I would not be a KA fan, either!

650 g of dough at >65% hydration would seem to be about 3 cups of my
white AP flour. I ususally shoot for about 620 g of dough and that's
the quantity I thought might not be kneaded properly because it is so
small that it wouldn't have sufficient contact with the bowl. And,
it's less than half what the manual for my Artisan says is max
capacity (of white flour) for the 5-quart bowl. And, it would also be
under the max amount of whole grain flour after the 50% reduction.

Do you think maybe you just got a lemon? Or, maybe I was lucky enough
to get one that was made correctly?

To reiterate, after the initial experiments of trying the two bread
recipes in the manual, I do not use the mixer for bread, anyway. I
just can't see any advantage in doing that.

BTW, thanks you for your good web site. I have been able to get quite
a bit of information that has been useful to me in developing my
skills at making sourdough bread. It's a bit complicated for me and
my skill level sometimes, but useful and enjoyable anyway.

Burney





Burney dot Huff at Mindspring dot com

On Sat, 19 Jan 2008 13:18:28 -0800, BH wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Jan 2008 17:52:54 -0700, Sam
> > wrote:
>
>
>>Mine (KA 650, strongest available at that time) did not - the low amount
>>of 650 g bread dough (please figure out the cup amounts yourself -
>>hydration maybe >65%) ran under settings shown in manual, stressed the
>>machine so much that it started to smoke and had to be turned off. The
>>noise it made to hear was painful.
>>Having this mixer was an ongoing frustration!
>
> Wow! If that had been my experience, I would not be a KA fan, either!

Sounds to me as though the belated arrival of the KA in Australia should
not be a source of grief over missed opportunities. The Kenwood Chef
appears to <be | have been> a better buy!

I routinely use mine to mix 1800g of dough (70+% hydration). It groans a
bit but does the job. My baked loaves (30% rye) are very edible.

Felix



--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

In article
<mailman.48.1200237290.4119.rec.food.sourdough@www .mountainbitwarrior.co
m>, says...
> Mike Avery wrote:
> > In article >,
> > says...
> >
> >> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:05:16 -0700, Mike Avery
> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> If you have a
> >>> slow connection, get some coffee. Or a faster connection.
> >>>
> >
> >
> >> The coffee will make the slow connection feel like a faster
> >> connection...
> >>
> >
> > That wasn't my intent. My thought is by the time you are done getting
> > the coffee, the downloads will be finished.
> >
> >
> Isn't the commonly used advice for this: "have a cup of tea"?
> (I am learning)
> Maybe not...

With the joys of moving and changing ISP's, I am finding I missed a
bunch of mail.

It depends on where you are. In the USA, you'd typically expect people
to drink coffee. In the UK, tea. In Europe, one or the other depending
on the person's preferences.

Mike

In article >,
says...
>
> "Mike Avery" > wrote in message ...
>
> > I have an ancient KitchenAid and am very happy with it.
> > I've seen, and heard, newer ones and would not own one.
>
> What do you suppose makes the new ones so bad as you imply?
> Could we get a little bit technical here, and lose the rumors?

A friend purchased a new KA to use in her bakery to mix icings and
frostings. Every time I heard her use it, the sound was awful - it
sounded like cheap bearings on the edge of failure. Will it continue to
run? Maybe.


> > Most of the tales of woe about KitchenAid mixers are from
> > people who didn't read the instruction manual.
>
> Does that mean they can be conditionally good?

Most of the "it died" stories I've heard are from people who made
multiple large batches of bread one after another. If you read the KA
manuals, you find out four things that are very relevant.

1. Each KA mixer has a maximum load size they don't want you to exceed.

2. If you use whole grain flours, the load size is cut in half.

3. You should let the mixer cool off for a certain length of time after
you make a certain number of back to back batches of dough.

4. You should only knead the dough for a certain number of minutes.

However, the load limits are somewhat suspect since they do not consider
the amount of liquid, just the amount of flour. I feel that bagel dough
is a much harder load than bread, which is a harder load than batter,
even if all three are made with the same amount of flour. Look at
professional mixer manuals and they'll rate the mixer for different
kinds of loads. As many egg whites as will fit in the bowl, lots of
cake better, less bread, much less pizza dough, still less bagel dough.

> Here is my main instruction for the K45:
> Don't try to mix thick dough, and let the head float in any
> case. Is that instruction in the manual? I don't think so.
> (For thick dough, mix thin or medium dough, and work
> in additional flour later, by hand.) (Or do all by hand.)

Good advice. Or buy a mixer that can handle the load.


Mike