let's talk about ciabatta. My crumb is never as open as i'd like it to
be. My gluten development seems to be fine, i build up the dough
through multiple folds, but when it comes time to finally load the
bread into the oven, it loses any volume that it might have gained. do
you think high gluten flour is better / necessary for ciabatta type
breads? Is there a way to have a very wet dough maintain its shape and
volume when its being loaded into the oven? Most people say you
shouldn't give ciabatta any final shaping, it should just be scaled
and cut into loose rectangles. But, i worked at a bakery where we did
shape our ciabatta, rolling it up into a log shape, and somehow it was
able to not collapse. What's your experience? plz post a link to some
pictures if you have any. Thanks!

what hydration do you use? if you dough is too loose, and your flour
not strong enough, you might need to put a bit less water. Otherwise
try to use a stronger flour, How much protein does your flour have?

Usually when ciabatta is loaded it looks very flat but it then jumps
again in the oven:
These are some I made home with strong bread flour, you can see they
go real flat in the oven put jumped a lot.
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...64973631668242
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...65185138032658

These I make with soft french flour, the hydration is much lower, but
still nice crumb.

http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...94262598084162

I'd say you need to play around and try different things, When I
started making ciabatta with french flour, it took me many tries
before I got it right, And once I did it too wet, the dough was not
holding itself at all, and went completely flat on the oven.

Viince said:

> what hydration do you use? if you dough is too loose, and your flour
> not strong enough, you might need to put a bit less water. Otherwise
> try to use a stronger flour, How much protein does your flour have?
>
> Usually when ciabatta is loaded it looks very flat but it then jumps
> again in the oven:
> These are some I made home with strong bread flour, you can see they
> go real flat in the oven put jumped a lot.http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...to#49963651851...

Ed Replies:
I agree with Viince. It took 75 percent hydration and Wheatmontana
Premium white flour to get an open crumb. It is a high protein bread
flour. And yes, the loaves do pop up in the oven.
Found this old link that sort of demonstrates that. Some of the holes
are more of a flying crust, but you get the idea

http://mysite.verizon.net/res7gfb9/B...WithHoles.html

Ed Bechtel

viince wrote:
> what hydration do you use? if you dough is too loose, and your flour
> not strong enough, you might need to put a bit less water. Otherwise
> try to use a stronger flour, How much protein does your flour have?
>
> Usually when ciabatta is loaded it looks very flat but it then jumps
> again in the oven:
> These are some I made home with strong bread flour, you can see they
> go real flat in the oven put jumped a lot.
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...64973631668242
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...65185138032658
>
> These I make with soft french flour, the hydration is much lower, but
> still nice crumb.
>
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...94262598084162
>
> I'd say you need to play around and try different things, When I
> started making ciabatta with french flour, it took me many tries
> before I got it right, And once I did it too wet, the dough was not
> holding itself at all, and went completely flat on the oven.

I love your pictures on your Picassa albums. Keep it up.
Lovely to look at. How about showing how to do the nice cuts on
the crust. I have trouble with that.

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

> I love your pictures on your Picassa albums. Keep it up.
> Lovely to look at. How about showing how to do the nice cuts on
> the crust. I have trouble with that.

I cut all my breads with a tomato knife (victorinox the best) when you
cut you have to be very quick so the blade doesnt drag, also cut at an
angle, think of the blade being parallel to the bread, and I always
cut straight, never try to do twists or weird stuff, keep it simple,
if you make 3 cuts, make the exact same 3 cuts, that would look the
best. Also I realized most people don't cut lengthwise, if you cut a
french stick for example, you have to make long cuts in the length of
the loaf. not many small cuts right angled.

I'll take some pictures tonight of loaf after cut and after bake

viince wrote:
>> I love your pictures on your Picassa albums. Keep it up.
>> Lovely to look at. How about showing how to do the nice cuts on
>> the crust. I have trouble with that.
>
> I cut all my breads with a tomato knife (victorinox the best) when you
> cut you have to be very quick so the blade doesnt drag, also cut at an
> angle, think of the blade being parallel to the bread, and I always
> cut straight, never try to do twists or weird stuff, keep it simple,
> if you make 3 cuts, make the exact same 3 cuts, that would look the
> best. Also I realized most people don't cut lengthwise, if you cut a
> french stick for example, you have to make long cuts in the length of
> the loaf. not many small cuts right angled.
>
> I'll take some pictures tonight of loaf after cut and after bake

Thanks, Vince, for the note about the tomato knife. I use my
wife's tomato knife sometimes, razor blade sometimes, bread
knife occasionally, some times dry and sometimes oiled, and they
always stick and pull and don't cut deeply enough. I ordered
one of the Victorinox tomato knives today. We will see if that
works any better. I will try to cut at a slant, too. I don't
bake enough to get a lot of practice, so all the advice helps.

Thanks again,

John Andrews, Knoxville, Tennessee

It's all in the speed, you can practice on your dough when it's
proving, before you shape it.
if you hold the dough with your thumb and index, then run the blade
between them, very quickly.

viince wrote:
Also I realized most people don't cut lengthwise, if you cut a
> french stick for example, you have to make long cuts in the length of
> the loaf. not many small cuts right angled.
>
> I'll take some pictures tonight of loaf after cut and after bake

I am making a couple Sourdough French sticks today and will try your
long cut idea. The basic recipe I was using called for cross cuts.

I also liked your videos and photos.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com