I think I like the basic definition of baguette as a long thin loaf with
slashes and a crunchy crust. That works for me.

The wiki says it came with the idea of steam in the 1920's and a time
limit on work hours, also no mention of what kind of yeast leavens it,
but the links provided 'do' include lots of talk of a pre-ferment stage
or souring the dough and how to include it.

They also use molds for shaping them.... I don't...yet anyway.

I tried using 'viince's' mix of .5% commercial yeast in my mix today and
it worked out really well. My first rise took 1.5 hours and the second,
in the loaf stage about an hour. I 'did' knead this batch for about 8
minutes until it felt right. (won't fold anymore and pushes back eh)

I got my oven up to 500 and put a pan of boiling water in the bottom for
the first 15 minutes. The loaves took about 30 minutes I think, but I
forgot to look, I just took them out when they looked done and tapped
hollow.

I don't think I need to modify this recipe for next time, but we will
see what my 'market' has to say about it when they get home at midnight
or so.

The photos are in the featured album he
http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Mike

Mike:
> The photos are in the featured album hehttp://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>
The look much better than the last photos you posted. The higher temp
helped.

Lucy

Trix wrote:
> Mike:
>> The photos are in the featured album hehttp://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>>
> The look much better than the last photos you posted. The higher temp
> helped.
>
> Lucy
>
The outer skin is also much nicer in a kneaded loaf vs the no-knead the
others all were. It is an 'easy' recipe, but I do like the kneaded better.

As 'viince' says, looks do count, even in perceived taste. My ugly
loafs are getting farther between at least. LOL.

Mike

> As 'viince' says, looks do count, even in perceived taste. My ugly
> loafs are getting farther between at least. LOL.
>
> Mike

Look this is what I was doing a while ago
http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...64879790735378
And this is what I do now: http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...05091019908514

practice makes perfect, so keep it real!

Have you tried baking a loaf in a pot? Because that's the way I get
the best crust if baking home. Or in deep tray with kitchen foil on
top as Andy does with real good results. (http://myplot.org/oven/
images/ov/ov77.jpg)

viince wrote:
>> As 'viince' says, looks do count, even in perceived taste. My ugly
>> loafs are getting farther between at least. LOL.
>>
>> Mike
>
> Look this is what I was doing a while ago
> http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...64879790735378
> And this is what I do now: http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...05091019908514
>
> practice makes perfect, so keep it real!
>
> Have you tried baking a loaf in a pot? Because that's the way I get
> the best crust if baking home. Or in deep tray with kitchen foil on
> top as Andy does with real good results. (http://myplot.org/oven/
> images/ov/ov77.jpg)

I cut into my round loaf this morning, so I added one more photo of it's
crumb. http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

The little shot, .5%, of yeast sure makes a softer loaf and keeps the
sourdough taste and crust texture intact. This loaf was baked at 425
for 15 minutes, then 375 for another 25 minutes. I didn't want to use
the 'new to me' high heat on all the bread...

Do you bake your round loaves as hot as the French Sticks or flutes? I
like the crust results of the high heat, but worry about the centers.

I have used Pyrex baking dishes to hold the shape of a couple rye loaves
and I do use conventional bread loaf tins for white bread mostly, but on
occasion SD. I use a hot cast iron pan for cornbread. A dark pan does
enhance the crust texture and colour, the glass (Pyrex) ones keep the
crust a lot lighter.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

So, vince,

Can you achieve similar results as the second photo at home? That is
what I'd like to get to...if it is possible...I haven't yet tried
covering with foil...I don't have a pot long enough...I could try my
roasting pan....and make a shorter, stouter loaf. I have used the NY
no-knead type method baking in a smaller Le Creuset pot for a round
loaf. How much would I need to seal the foil to the pan or would it
work (and still keep enough steam in) on the cookie/baking low sided
pan on which I've been currently using to bake loaves?

Do you keep the temp in the the higher range the whole baking time (at
home)?

Lucy

> The photos are in the featured album hehttp://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>
> Mike

I agree with Vince, your loaves are looking much nicer especially the
crust, the inside maybe I would like for more volume and variety of
bubble size but anyway ...

>
> This stuff has 4 grams per 30 or 13.33% protein and is enriched with
> thiamine, riboflavin, niacin, iron, folic acid (folate). Woah, that was
> a mouthful, eh.
>

wow, shows you how easily the different national standards of flour
can cause confusion, your 'all-purpose' flour would be in bracket of
strongest bread flour available in UK and off the scale in France. So
you could try adding some less strong flour, assuming you can actually
get this, for baguette. If you did this will mean your hydration will
need to be adjusted down, main effect in my experience will be you get
a deeper and more crunchy crust (when fresh).

for Lucy

> I had been having a problem finding the right knife to use to make the
> slashes so, I ordered a victorinox tomato knife (as you
> suggested)...it has a split tip...did you cut that tip off, or did
> yours not have that kind of tip?

here is Vince's knife

http://www.myplot.org/oven/gallery.p...e=6&project=13 behind the
wheel

and after that is pics of little comparison of our flutes that me and
Vince did on Saturday. Both loaves 360g dough, 280g baked. As we know
mine is 100% SD, 14% rotten dough and for this one 20% wheat fed
starter, Vince's has 0.5% yeast and 20% rye fed starter. Mine is T65
which is a slightly off white bread flour + 7% light rye, Vince's is
T65 + 30% T85 which more to a brown flour - so is darker crumb.
Proofing is very different since mine was 16 hours and Vince's 6 or 7
(?). I have to say I preferred the crust on mine, volume of mine was
also higher but I don't think Vince's was quite typical, normally does
have more volume than here - maybe because his starter had gone a bit
berserk - running around the bakery floor - overnight. If anything I
think Vince's had slightly more SD flavour but significantly for me
his crumb was noticeably softer than mine. For me this is important
because softer, less gelatinised crumb wall means crumb is more
capable of absorbing liquid. For me a baguette should be capable of
mopping up gravy, sauces etc so its important it has at least some big
holes to capture sauce like a spoon but also that the crumb can
absorb and take on flavour of sauce a bit. I did I think notice that
Vince's was fair bit less salty than mine, his recipe 2% salt, mine is
2.25% but real difference maybe greater and this I think maybe one
factor why my crumb was not so soft and this will be next tweak to
recipe I make - though I do like bread to the more salty side (and
unsalted butter). There is also the question that I can't get my
domestic oven over 200C so this leads to my crumb being harder, drier
by the time crust is done how I want compared to with a hotter oven.

yours
atty

Andy, I went ahead and ordered a knife that looks just like Vince's
since they aren't very expensive. He had already posted a picture of
his knife on the Video thread (using Google groups). I was intrigued
by the mud oven concept and may order that book about how to build and
earth oven. My oven gets up to 290.55c which is what I use to bake my
SD pizza.

I see you and vince were baking those loaves in his bakery. Both your
loaves looked good. Thanks for the description of what each of you
did.

The color of the crumb of mine tends to look a bit more like vinces
because I use my rye SD starter most of the time. When my SD is
hydrated enough to produce large holes in the crumb it has that
gelatinous quality to it...not soft...I am not sure how to change that
outcome. I have under salted many more times than over salted my
dough. I've been using a combination of Celtic sea salt (grey) and
Himalayan red mountain sea salt. The 5% yeast is probably what makes
for the softer product.



Lucy

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 13:00:38 -0700 (PDT), Trix
> wrote:

>I've been using a combination of Celtic sea salt (grey) and
>Himalayan red mountain sea salt.

Hi Lucy,

I have a question about what you have written above, but
offer it with some slight caution.

It is in no way a criticism...

And, though your comment above stimulated my response, it is
certainly not directed only to you.

I simply fail to understand the attraction of "sea salt."

That is because all salt (used for culinary purposes) is
"sea salt."

That's where it comes from.

As far as I am aware, the only difference between "sea salt"
and the salt mined from under the earth is the era when its
water was removed leaving the crystals.

Beyond that, the oceans have been used as sewers for
millennia...

Why would one avoid the vastly cleaner, and far less costly,
mined salt in favor of its "sea salt" cousin?

Again, this is not intended as a criticism, I am genuinely
curious.

Sincere thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mar 17, 6:52 pm, Kenneth > wrote:

> Why would one avoid the vastly cleaner, and far less costly,
> mined salt in favor of its "sea salt" cousin?

Kenneth,

Why does a bottle of nouveaux sell for the same as a Fleurie? :-)

OT:

why celtic sea salt and not regular refined table salt.

I prefer using products that are less refined and without lots of
added stuff. I think the mineral content is better or more useful
than that of refined salt. Just google the benefits...we all make our
own decisions about these things. I read labels...for example, I try
to avoid partially hydrogenated oil...when you read labels you see
that it is in lots of products in the grocery stores...at least it is
in the U.S.. I am sure I get plenty of regular table salt when I eat
at restaurants. When I have a choice at home I choose to use the more
naturals salts. I used kosher salt for many years before switching to
the salts I currently use.

"Traditional table salt has been treated with various chemicals and
refined, removing and destroying any natural minerals and nutrients it
once contained. Bleaching and anti-caking agents are added mainly for
the purpose of creating a cleaner looking, free-flowing crystal, but
in actuality the result is something rather toxic."

"The salt that you find in table salt and most processed foods is
sodium chloride. Salt in this form has been processed at high
temperatures, which changes the molecular structure and removes vital
minerals from the salt. Table salt also contains additives, anticaking
agents, and even sugar. Excess salt consumption is associated with
high blood pressure, fluid retention, heart and kidney disease."

If you think it is a lot of bunk to try and eat more natural products
that are less refined then that is your choice. I want to avoid
pharmaceuticals as long as possible...I'd rather try to keep improving
my diet and remain active. I am slim and pretty healthy, lots of
folks are very overweight and rather unhealthy...I don't drink soft
drinks/soda, I don't frequent fast food restaurants....I have friends
that don't watch what they eat and they are on multiple meds...they
are younger than me. I prefer homemade rather that packaged or fast
foods...you get the idea...I do take some supplements too...like cod
liver oil or fish oil, B Complex, CO Q 10 Curcumin, Milk
Thistle...etc. too.... but I am not fanatical.

Maybe I am just gullible and all of it doesn't make that much
difference. Maybe I am more aware of the importance of a good diet
and exercise because of just genetics...my mom died of colon cancer at
52 as did my father though he was 86...

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 20:41:37 -0700 (PDT), Trix
> wrote:

>If you think it is a lot of bunk to try and eat more natural products
>that are less refined then that is your choice.

Hi again,

I do believe that there is some "bunk" with regard to the
salt issue, but it may not be what you are mentioning.

Indeed, many "unrefined" products are better, but what is
this "refining" you believe is done with salt?

It is my understanding that they, in essence, scoop it up,
and put it in the box.

Perhaps I am wrong, but might you tell me more about why you
believe that beneficial things are removed (or refined) from
salt?

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

OT: Salt con't
refined salt:
http://www.cargillsalt.com/dc_salt_about_howmade.htm
http://www.refinediodisedsaltplant.com/solutions.html
(both manufacture/sells refined salt)

http://www.healthfree.com/celtic_sea_salt.html
(Note: site also sells sea salt)

http://www.celticseasalt.com/About_C...rand_W48C3.cfm
(Note: site sells sea salt)

Basically, I believe that there are benefits from using celtic sea
salt or himalayan pink salt over refined. I think those salts are in
a more usable, natural form, higher in minerals and the elements our
bodies should be getting from salt. I am not a biologist/
scientist...etc...so I don't have any info aside from stuff I've read
about that makes sense to me...right or wrong...I don't claim to know
it all.

Refined salt certainly is not just scooped up and put in a box.
To each his own.

It is kind of like why I prefer to use sourdough starter as opposed to
always just using commercial yeast.
It isn't just for the flavor...which I enjoy...but for other benefits
as well.

On Mar 16, 10:39*pm, Trix > wrote:
> So, vince,
>
> Can you achieve similar results as the second photo at home? *

kind of: http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...56036962169794

these were with a pizza stone. But I still think the best for crust is
a pot. With a tight seal the bread keeps its steam inside.
I've never tried with foil so I can't say really.

For temperature I'll bake most stuff around 250C I think that's the
perfect temperature for most bread. Probably load at 250 and drop it
to 230C later.

But it depends how much colour/crust thickness people want on their
bread. I like a hotter oven for sticks because I want thin crust and
nice colour. Lower temperature for Big loaves where I want thick crust.

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 06:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Trix
> wrote:

>OT: Salt con't
>refined salt:
>http://www.cargillsalt.com/dc_salt_about_howmade.htm
>http://www.refinediodisedsaltplant.com/solutions.html
>(both manufacture/sells refined salt)

Hi Lucy,

I did not read all the links that you provided, but I did
read the first two with care...

You might want to read them again.

It appears to me that they each describe the process of
removing water from the salt.

Is that what is of concern?

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

> vince:
>
> kind of:http://picasaweb.google.com/cacaprou...to#50607560369...

Thanks..those were mini...

When using a stone for baking bread, you don't have a problem with a
burnt bottom crust?

I do like baking at higher temps...in order to get the color crust I
like too. Early on, I had a problem with getting gray, sickly looking
crusts,

Your pointers have been a great help.

Andy,

I am not yet sure we'll be able to actually build one of those adobe
ovens...living in a town with just a back yard...not sure of space
required or if the city would have a problem with such an oven...does
it produce lots of smoke, like a fireplace, or does it produce about
as much smoke as a bbq grill? When you said that the oven floor
should be shoulder height..that sounds lots bigger than what I was
imagining. How long does it take you to get it up to the temps you
use for pizza?


Lucy


Lucy

Kenneth wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 06:51:57 -0700 (PDT), Trix
> > wrote:
>
>> OT: Salt con't
>> refined salt:
>> http://www.cargillsalt.com/dc_salt_about_howmade.htm
>> http://www.refinediodisedsaltplant.com/solutions.html
>> (both manufacture/sells refined salt)
>
> Hi Lucy,
>
> I did not read all the links that you provided, but I did
> read the first two with care...
>
> You might want to read them again.
>
> It appears to me that they each describe the process of
> removing water from the salt.
>
> Is that what is of concern?
>
> Thanks again,

This is from the second link: "In the brine tank required chemicals are
added to precipitate out magnesium and calcium salts present."

AND: "salt is passed to the feed in hopper of the blender wherein free
flowing agent is added."

They also add iodine to most table salt we see here in Canada. This is
to overdose us with the stuff so the radioactive iodine they have
spitting out of all the reactors and from fallout here and world wide
can't get into our thyroid gland and kill us. One town close to me with
nuclear plants even gets government iodine pills... Some areas of the
world are deficient in iodine, but not North America.
See: http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/question367.htm

I for one also notice a difference in the taste of sea salt.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

On Mar 17, 10:41 pm, Trix > wrote:

> "The salt that you find in table salt and most processed foods is
> sodium chloride. Salt in this form has been processed at high
> temperatures, which changes the molecular structure and removes vital
> minerals from the salt.

Trix... this is not supported by the links you provided. Those links
suggest water injection and simple brine evaporation. Your "celtic
salt" is brine evaported. Some filtering occurs with the centrifuges
but that's not to reduce minerals, it's to remove clay, shale and
other non salt "natural" particulates.

>Table salt also contains additives, anticaking
> agents, and even sugar.

If it does have additives it says so (by law) on the package. If it is
kosher salt or pickling salt the packaging is very specific: "PURE
SALT".

I did read the trace "analysis". It's an utterly inappropriate use of
numbers. The level of precision is not disclosed. But in general they
are talking 3 to 5 decimal places of a percent. So .001% is .00001
parts. A bucket of surface seawater vs. a sample from 200 feet varies
by much more than this.

But to get down to it...a loaf of bread gets 20 grams of salt. What
is .0000002 units of magnesium? I get 50 times the magnesium (plus
the other 82 micro-nutrients) in the bag of orchard apples bought with
the money I save using kosher salt. Or even by eating a few dried
apricots :-) Fruit minerals are bio-available...

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
> [ ... ]
> They also add iodine to most table salt we see here in Canada. This is
> to overdose us with the stuff so the radioactive iodine they have
> spitting out of all the reactors and from fallout here and world wide
> can't get into our thyroid gland and kill us. One town close to me with
> nuclear plants even gets government iodine pills... Some areas of the
> world are deficient in iodine, but not North America.

In the U.S., kids are taught in the 9th grade that potassium iodide is added
to most table salt as a public-health measure to avoid goiter, a thyroid
condition attributable to nutritional iodine deficiency. Most food markets
provide non-iodized table salt as an option. (Of course, not everybody
makes it as far as the 9th grade, here or in Canada.)

Potassium iodide tablets can be ingested as a measure against the uptake
of radioiodine (which seeks the thyroid gland) in the event of a nuclear
catastrophe. But, so far as I know, no north american is taking iodide
routinely as a prophylactic measure, unless he is some kind of a nut.

You are a veritable cornucopia of misinformation, Mike. You should post
less and learn more. At least post less. And, fer crissake, you do not need
to repost the whole thing/thread to which you are attempting to reply. It
rather amazes me that you are able to operate a digital camera and bake
apparent bread.

--
Dicky

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote:

>On Mar 17, 10:41 pm, Trix > wrote:
>
>> "The salt that you find in table salt and most processed foods is
>> sodium chloride. Salt in this form has been processed at high
>> temperatures, which changes the molecular structure and removes vital
>> minerals from the salt.
>
>Trix... this is not supported by the links you provided. Those links
>suggest water injection and simple brine evaporation. Your "celtic
>salt" is brine evaported. Some filtering occurs with the centrifuges
>but that's not to reduce minerals, it's to remove clay, shale and
>other non salt "natural" particulates.
>
>>Table salt also contains additives, anticaking
>> agents, and even sugar.
>
>If it does have additives it says so (by law) on the package. If it is
>kosher salt or pickling salt the packaging is very specific: "PURE
>SALT".
>
>I did read the trace "analysis". It's an utterly inappropriate use of
>numbers. The level of precision is not disclosed. But in general they
>are talking 3 to 5 decimal places of a percent. So .001% is .00001
>parts. A bucket of surface seawater vs. a sample from 200 feet varies
>by much more than this.
>
>But to get down to it...a loaf of bread gets 20 grams of salt. What
>is .0000002 units of magnesium? I get 50 times the magnesium (plus
>the other 82 micro-nutrients) in the bag of orchard apples bought with
>the money I save using kosher salt. Or even by eating a few dried
>apricots :-) Fruit minerals are bio-available...
>
>

Hi Will,

Your comments brought back a wonderful memory (as, I
believe, they have on other occasions)...

When I was about twenty (during the late Pleistocene) I was
on a ferry going from southern Spain to Morocco.

As we sat on deck with friends, one of them picked up a
bottle of water, took a drink, and then spit it out on the
deck saying "Uggh... Radon!"

He, of course, had looked at the mineral listing on the
label just prior, and enjoyed the .0000000002 ppm (or some
such) entry for radon.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 12:01:20 -0400, Mike Romain
> wrote:

>This is from the second link: "In the brine tank required chemicals are
>added to precipitate out magnesium and calcium salts present."
>
>AND: "salt is passed to the feed in hopper of the blender wherein free
>flowing agent is added."

Hi Mike,

Indeed, you read the piece more carefully than I...

Thanks,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mar 18, 12:19 pm, Kenneth >
wrote:

> As we sat on deck with friends, one of them picked up a
> bottle of water, took a drink...

You, of course, had already figured out that the water had 0% EtOH and
the rioja had a robust 14%... and was therefore much healthier :-)

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 09:08:49 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote:

>On Mar 17, 10:41 pm, Trix > wrote:
>
>> "The salt that you find in table salt and most processed foods is
>> sodium chloride. Salt in this form has been processed at high
>> temperatures, which changes the molecular structure and removes vital
>> minerals from the salt.
>
>Trix... this is not supported by the links you provided. Those links
>suggest water injection and simple brine evaporation. Your "celtic
>salt" is brine evaported. Some filtering occurs with the centrifuges
>but that's not to reduce minerals, it's to remove clay, shale and
>other non salt "natural" particulates.
>
>>Table salt also contains additives, anticaking
>> agents, and even sugar.
>
>If it does have additives it says so (by law) on the package. If it is
>kosher salt or pickling salt the packaging is very specific: "PURE
>SALT".

Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow. Pickling
salt usually has no additives.

Boron

G'day "Trix" & all;

"Trix" > wrote in message
...
> OT:
>
> why celtic sea salt and not regular refined table salt.
>
> I prefer using products that are less refined and without lots of
An excellent goal that clearly matches my own!

> added stuff. I think the mineral content is better or more useful
True enough. "Sea" salt does have the natural ocean variety of dissolved
minerals besides the sodium-chloride salt. But--natural variations not
withstanding--all salt, even that that's mined as halite (rock salt), are
pretty well that same formulation. They all came from the sea at one time
or the other...with local, seasonal, millennial, or climatic driven
variations being the only distinctions.

> than that of refined salt. Just google the benefits...we all make our
> own decisions about these things. I read labels...for example, I try
True enough. And while I'm an avid hunter of "unprocessed" or 'unrefined'
foods--which is why I bake my own bread and make all of my own foods from
scratch, I don't think that your 'sea-salt' fascination falls well into that
category. There's little difference between the salt harvested from water
off the Irish shore as opposed to off of Antarctica or from a salt dome in
the Himalayas...except for the variety of micro organisms from one-celled to
krill (and larger). The only "difference" between a grey or red "sea-salt"
is a variation in the amount and kind of clay mixed with the salt. It's not
bad for you...but since clay is indigestible, it doesn't add anything except
to the cost.

> to avoid partially hydrogenated oil...when you read labels you see
An EXCELLENT strategy, and a good start! You should add 'High Fructose Corn
Syrup' to that "avoid at all costs" list...

> that it is in lots of products in the grocery stores...at least it is
> in the U.S.. I am sure I get plenty of regular table salt when I eat
> at restaurants. When I have a choice at home I choose to use the more
> naturals salts. I used kosher salt for many years before switching to
Likewise. I liked the flavor better without the iodine. It seemed
"brighter". On top of that, I found that my critters, when they were in the
dough, seemed to do much better (w/o the iodine I'd guess).

....
> "Traditional table salt has been treated with various chemicals and
> refined, removing and destroying any natural minerals and nutrients it
> once contained. Bleaching and anti-caking agents are added mainly for
> the purpose of creating a cleaner looking, free-flowing crystal, but
> in actuality the result is something rather toxic."
While it's true that anti-caking agents are added to most "table salt",
there's little validity to the notion that "natural minerals" are removed.
"Rock-salt", like any other naturally harvested salt, is dissolved with hot
water, and filtered, centrifuged, etc. and the water is evaporated off
usually using a vacuum process. Sea-salt, rock-salt, ... whatever, they are
all pretty well handled the same. As far as I can recollect during the
equipment calibrating process (I didn't work in the salt harvesting
business, I fixed some of their gear), there was no 'bleaching' step
involved.

> "The salt that you find in table salt and most processed foods is
> sodium chloride. Salt in this form has been processed at high
All "salt" is NaCl (sodium chloride). There are other metal salts, but NaCl
is the one we typically ingest.

> temperatures, which changes the molecular structure and removes vital
> minerals from the salt. Table salt also contains additives, anticaking
Not true. The temperatures used are pretty well the same for all edible
salt products. Salt is an ionically bonded molecule in an electrostatically
defined arrangement. That means you can't change it through the application
of any amount of heat, until you get it hot enough to melt. It's not like
ruining a fat molecule when you heat it hot enough to start smoking.

> agents, and even sugar. Excess salt consumption is associated with
> high blood pressure, fluid retention, heart and kidney disease."
Only half true. There is no evidence at all that salt is in any way
deleterious to the normal, healthy human organism. Contrary to much popular
folk lore, you can not easily eat too much salt. There are, however, some
existing diseases and maladies that can exasperate some symptoms by the
application of too much dietary salt.

> If you think it is a lot of bunk to try and eat more natural products
> that are less refined then that is your choice. I want to avoid
Nope. Not "bunk" at all. I think the goal of eating better, more natural
foods, should be everybody's goal. I wish that more of the folks reading
here would follow your lead.

> pharmaceuticals as long as possible...I'd rather try to keep improving
> my diet and remain active. I am slim and pretty healthy, lots of
A most excellent goal! Be sure to keep after it. Trust me, it gets harder
as you get older...but it's still important.

> folks are very overweight and rather unhealthy...I don't drink soft
> drinks/soda,
That's an excellent point! (about NOT drinking the soda, I mean)

> I don't frequent fast food restaurants....I have friends
That's a fraudulent point! FF restaurants have gotten a bad rap for a long
time...mostly because the fats they use are supposed to be bad. Except for
(the cellular damage caused by) hydrogenated fats; good, real, natural fats
simply aren't an issue when it comes to being overweight. The only thing
that can be stored in a human "fat cell" is a molecule of sugar.

> that don't watch what they eat and they are on multiple meds...they
No doubt. Keep on taking care of yourself...and if genetics is on your
side, you should be able to keep it that way for a long, long time.

> are younger than me. I prefer homemade rather that packaged or fast
> foods...you get the idea...I do take some supplements too...like cod
> liver oil or fish oil, B Complex, CO Q 10 Curcumin, Milk
> Thistle...etc. too.... but I am not fanatical.
Excellent! A good array of supplements. Keep up the good work! In any
event, a little fanaticism in this regard won't hurt...(:-o)!

> Maybe I am just gullible and all of it doesn't make that much
> difference. Maybe I am more aware of the importance of a good diet
> and exercise because of just genetics...my mom died of colon cancer at
> 52 as did my father though he was 86...
Sad, that.

In any event, keep after your goal of a good, basic, natural diet. Just
don't let yourself get sucked in by those peddling designer foods or
condiments. Cuz dietary ignorance isn't so much about what you don't know,
it's about what you think you know that isn't true. And the amount of
dietary info that folks think they know and understand to be true but is
flat out wrong, is truly frightening!


L8r all,
Dusty -- Everett, Wa. at the moment...

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 10:44:48 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote:

>On Mar 18, 12:19 pm, Kenneth >
>wrote:
>
>> As we sat on deck with friends, one of them picked up a
>> bottle of water, took a drink...
>
>You, of course, had already figured out that the water had 0% EtOH and
>the rioja had a robust 14%... and was therefore much healthier :-)

Hi Will,

Thanks for yet another smile...
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:55:25 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow.

Hi Boron,

In what sense do you mean "may?"

Do you mean that it is "allowed" to, or "sometimes has" such
an additive?

I ask because I check the labels and buy only the Kosher
salt that shows only "Salt" as its contents.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:26:28 -0700, "Dusty da baker"
> wrote:

>They all came from the sea at one time
>or the other...with local, seasonal, millennial, or climatic driven
>variations being the only distinctions.

Hi Dusty,

Would I be incorrect to suggest that "sea salt" also has the
remnants of, say, the past ten thousand years of human
dumping, while mined salt does not?

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:35:55 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:55:25 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow.
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>In what sense do you mean "may?"
>
>Do you mean that it is "allowed" to, or "sometimes has" such
>an additive?
>
>I ask because I check the labels and buy only the Kosher
>salt that shows only "Salt" as its contents.
>
>All the best,

It depends on who makes it. Kosher salt is titled that way because it
is used for koshering meat. Morton's has sodium ferrocyanide as an
anti-caking agent. Diamond Crystal doesn't

Boron

Dusty da baker wrote:
> .
>
> In any event, keep after your goal of a good, basic, natural diet. Just
> don't let yourself get sucked in by those peddling designer foods or
> condiments. Cuz dietary ignorance isn't so much about what you don't know,
> it's about what you think you know that isn't true. And the amount of
> dietary info that folks think they know and understand to be true but is
> flat out wrong, is truly frightening!
>
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty -- Everett, Wa. at the moment...
>

Just had to jump in here, because one of our daughters has been sold a
bill of goods, about Celtic sea salt is the only perfect one and all
else is garbage! By a woman who owns a Health Food store, of course!
We have been using sea salt for about 15 years, it is from France, and
one heck of a lot less costly than the Irish stuff. Celtic Sea salt is
being sold mainly at health food stores at a very inflated price, as is
most stuff at health food stores! At least here in Canada, dunno about
the folks who live below me down I-5!! Right Dusty? I keep both around,
Kosher salt, and the French sea salt. and we use both in our daily
cooking. On another list I have just been back and forth about Splenda,
which has been available here in Canada since 1990, and that is how long
I have been using it. Don't think I am ded yet, perhaps I should pinch
my 82 year old hide to find out! In other words, we have been using
Splenda for 18 years, a pretty good test, as far as I am concerned, and
I do NOT have any of the problems that Mercola points to in his ANTI
Splenda pages!! Sheesh! Sure wonder who is paying HIS way!
So, just the old guy's 2 Cdn cents worth...old Doug in BC

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:41:50 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:35:55 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:55:25 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>>
>>>Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow.
>>
>>Hi Boron,
>>
>>In what sense do you mean "may?"
>>
>>Do you mean that it is "allowed" to, or "sometimes has" such
>>an additive?
>>
>>I ask because I check the labels and buy only the Kosher
>>salt that shows only "Salt" as its contents.
>>
>>All the best,
>
>It depends on who makes it. Kosher salt is titled that way because it
>is used for koshering meat. Morton's has sodium ferrocyanide as an
>anti-caking agent. Diamond Crystal doesn't
>
>Boron

Hi Boron,

That's why I'm a Diamond Crystal man...

(I've been trying to cut back on my ferrocyanide compounds.)

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 19:21:42 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 18:41:50 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 16:35:55 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:
>>
>>>On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:55:25 -0400, Boron Elgar
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow.
>>>
>>>Hi Boron,
>>>
>>>In what sense do you mean "may?"
>>>
>>>Do you mean that it is "allowed" to, or "sometimes has" such
>>>an additive?
>>>
>>>I ask because I check the labels and buy only the Kosher
>>>salt that shows only "Salt" as its contents.
>>>
>>>All the best,
>>
>>It depends on who makes it. Kosher salt is titled that way because it
>>is used for koshering meat. Morton's has sodium ferrocyanide as an
>>anti-caking agent. Diamond Crystal doesn't
>>
>>Boron
>
>Hi Boron,
>
>That's why I'm a Diamond Crystal man...
>
>(I've been trying to cut back on my ferrocyanide compounds.)
>
>All the best,


I am a big believer in iodized salt. I have known 2 people who
developed goiters that could have been easily prevented with iodized
salt.

Now, I also have non-iodized salt in the house, but that is for nasal
lavage.

And I have various sea salts, too, mostly obtained through free or
very cheap means. There are slightly different flavors/accents among
them, based on mineral content and crystal size and grinder used. I do
not use them for health reasons, but do so on taste or for the
specific foods they might be sprinkled on. They can add a deliberately
salty taste or a sparkly look. Recipes get plain old iodized table
salt.

Boron

Kenneth wrote:
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:55:25 -0400, Boron Elgar
> > wrote:
>
>>Kosher salt may have a chemical agent in it to help it flow.
>
> Hi Boron,
>
> In what sense do you mean "may?"
>
> Do you mean that it is "allowed" to, or "sometimes has" such
> an additive?
>
> I ask because I check the labels and buy only the Kosher
> salt that shows only "Salt" as its contents.

No need to capitalize "kosher." All salt, per se, is kosher. Kosher
salt is a misnomer because the large crystals are used to adsorb blood
from meat, therefore koshering it. These days, most kosher butchers
perform that last step of preparation and it's not done at home as much.

B/

Dusty da baker wrote:
> G'day "Trix" & all;

>> that it is in lots of products in the grocery stores...at least it
>> is in the U.S.. I am sure I get plenty of regular table salt when
>> I eat at restaurants. When I have a choice at home I choose to use
>> the more naturals salts. I used kosher salt for many years before
>> switching to

> Likewise. I liked the flavor better without the iodine. It seemed
> "brighter".

Well, that's the point of all these "gourmet" (actually the term is
"epicurean" since "gourmet" is widely misused) salts. People say they
can taste the "nuances" as if salt were wine.

Then again, some people have taste buds that even dogs can't hear.

B/

Dick Adams wrote:

> In the U.S., kids are taught in the 9th grade that potassium iodide is added
> to most table salt as a public-health measure to avoid goiter, a thyroid
> condition attributable to nutritional iodine deficiency.
> --
> Dicky
>
>

I guess being in the cold war era and all, my science teacher implied
that it was a good idea to have enough iodine in your system to have the
thyroid working properly so it doesn't actively seek out more which was
a bonus to the health issue the additive was first used for. I never
thought otherwise.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Mike Romain > wrote in
ng.com:

> Dick Adams wrote:
>
>> In the U.S., kids are taught in the 9th grade that
>> potassium iodide is added to most table salt as a
>> public-health measure to avoid goiter, a thyroid condition
>> attributable to nutritional iodine deficiency. --
>> Dicky
>>
>>
>
> I guess being in the cold war era and all, my science
> teacher implied that it was a good idea to have enough
> iodine in your system to have the thyroid working properly
> so it doesn't actively seek out more which was a bonus to
> the health issue the additive was first used for. I never
> thought otherwise.
>
> Mike
> Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com
>

Since I've been around for a goodly number of years, as a
kid, I can remember seeing the bulging throats of women that
had goiter. This before iodized salt became common. It has
been many years since I have see anyone with a goiter.

It appears that the addition was successful.

Hello Kenneth & all

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 13:26:28 -0700, "Dusty da baker"
> > wrote:
>
>>They all came from the sea at one time
>>or the other...with local, seasonal, millennial, or climatic driven
>>variations being the only distinctions.
>
> Hi Dusty,
>
> Would I be incorrect to suggest that "sea salt" also has the
> remnants of, say, the past ten thousand years of human
> dumping, while mined salt does not?
No, you would be quite correct. But, although correct, the amount of such
"contamination" is pretty infinitesimal. Not that I'm recommending it, mind
you, only that it's not the 'problem' it's so often made out to be.

Fortunately for us, there is a rather large "dilution factor" at
work...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty
....

"Brian Mailman" > wrote in message
...
....
>> Likewise. I liked the flavor better without the iodine. It seemed
>> "brighter".
>
> Well, that's the point of all these "gourmet" (actually the term is
> "epicurean" since "gourmet" is widely misused) salts. People say they can
> taste the "nuances" as if salt were wine.
I don't know, Brian. As a long time wine, beer, and coffee taster (albeit
still only semi-pro...(:-o)!), I can taste a lot of things to nuances most
can't (or don't).

I can taste the difference between regular, iodized table salt and the
Kosher salt, only because the taste (by nose?) of the iodine is so intense.
But I'll be darned it I've ever been able to taste the differences between
that and any of the other salts. At least on me, they'd be wasted.

As another poster has already posited, mostly those kinds of salts are sold
to appeal to the vanity of the buyers. They think they're getting something
better, rarer, that cut above...kinda like some folks have to have the
biggest mixer or most accurate scale...(:-o)!
<ducking and running for cover...>

> Then again, some people have taste buds that even dogs can't hear.
Love that line! Thanks!

L8r all,
Dusty -- near Lake Stevens, Wa. today...
....

Since this thread has taken on a broad spectrum of subjects now less related to French
Baguettes I will address two posts with different subjects by different posters using
the same thread:

Dusty da baker said:

> The only thing that can be stored in a human "fat cell" is a molecule of sugar.

This is quite wrong. If this were the case it would be called a sugar cell. It is not.
Fat cells are composed of adipose tissue that is composed of proportions of
monounsaturated and saturated fatty acids stearic acid lipoprotein and triglycerides
all of which have very long chain molecules. Removing these cells require complex
activities with enzymes and associated co-activators that are hormone sensitive. There
is glucose in the presence of adipose tissue that is associated with the endogenous
cannabinoid system of glucose uptake but it cannot be stated glucose [a saccharide] is
the only thing stored in a 'fat cell'.

Avoid radio talk show style half and whole untruths meant to empower the ignorant.

The removal of adipose tissue, a constant topic in the western world, is given
treatise in that timely tome of 1857 by Edmund Randolph Peaslee wherein he states [on
page 808] <sic> Emaćiation may be induced by a prolonged discharge of any fluid
containing a considerable proportion of fat. Hence profuse suppuration or hemorrhage,
or excessive sexual indulgence, produces leanness, since pus, blood, and semen are
rich in fat.

Kenneth says:

> Would I be incorrect to suggest that [etc]

I've tried the mined salt and perhaps it may avoid air and water pollution of recent
[synthetic chemical compounds] history but it contains a generous amount of nature's
diversity not related to salt. If you're not convinced of this take a half teaspoon of
a popular type of this salt, "Real Salt" and dissolve it in a wine glass of hot water.
At the bottom you will notice a lot of 'salt' that doesn't dissolve, this is the
insoluble parts of mined salt. I would add that these adulterants make up a percentage
of the weight you're paying for.

I prefer the salt from sea water evaporated from clay lined ponds on the ÃŽle de
Noirmoutier:

http://en.aquasel.fr/

The clay adds mineral content not associated with the sea like iodine plus the sodium
levels of this salt are lower than refined salt that may also contain anti-caking
agents. If you think all salt taste the same it doesn't. For me the flavor and 'feel'
of this particular salt is nonpareil, your journey's end in the quest for salt.

--
CK

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 15:18:09 -0500, Charlie Kroeger
> wrote:

>Kenneth says:
>
>> Would I be incorrect to suggest that [etc]
>
>I've tried the mined salt and perhaps it may avoid air and water pollution of recent
>[synthetic chemical compounds] history but it contains a generous amount of nature's
>diversity not related to salt. If you're not convinced of this take a half teaspoon of
>a popular type of this salt, "Real Salt" and dissolve it in a wine glass of hot water.
>At the bottom you will notice a lot of 'salt' that doesn't dissolve, this is the
>insoluble parts of mined salt. I would add that these adulterants make up a percentage
>of the weight you're paying for.
>
>I prefer the salt from sea water evaporated from clay lined ponds on the Île de
>Noirmoutier:
>
>http://en.aquasel.fr/
>
>The clay adds mineral content not associated with the sea like iodine plus the sodium
>levels of this salt are lower than refined salt that may also contain anti-caking
>agents. If you think all salt taste the same it doesn't. For me the flavor and 'feel'
>of this particular salt is nonpareil, your journey's end in the quest for salt.

Hi Charlie,

I did not write "Would I be incorrect to suggest that [etc]"
<g>

I wrote "Would I be incorrect to suggest that "sea salt"
also has the remnants of, say, the past ten thousand years
of human dumping, while mined salt does not?"

and until informed otherwise, will probably stick with that
understanding of the sea salt thing, though, of course, the
dilution comments Dusty offered are absolutely true.

Also. you and I would prefer to use salt that does not have,
for example, "anti-caking" agents. That's why I find it best
to simply read the label.

Diamond Crystal's label reads: "Salt."

Please understand that I have no objection whatever to you,
or anyone else, enjoying sea-salt.

Though I do find humorous the oft repeated health claims
made for it.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Dusty da baker" > wrote in message ...

> I can taste the difference between regular, iodized table salt and the
> Kosher salt, only because the taste (by nose?) of the iodine is so intense.
> But I'll be darned it I've ever been able to taste the differences between
> that and any of the other salts. At least on me, they'd be wasted.

Cripes, you must have a mouth for taste like a dog's nose for smell.

Can you taste the chlorine in table salt (sodium chloride)?

What is the taste of potassium iodide?

(Actually, that is a rhetorical question. (Move over, Kenneth!))

Did anybody out there actually learn any science in whatever school
they may have drifted through?

"Charlie Kroeger" > wrote in message ...

> [ ... ]
> I prefer the salt from sea water evaporated from clay lined ponds on the Île de
> Noirmoutier ... For me the flavor and 'feel' of this particular salt is nonpareil, your
> journey's end in the quest for salt.

Nonpareil??!!

Yer shittin' us, right?

--
Dicky