I am thinking I should get a scale for the kitchen if I am to
seriously get into my bread fascination. At least, to get a true
result to fine tune. When scooping by the cup of fraction of a cup,
there's a margin of error a bit higher than I would like as it's
getting packed at times depending on the scoop. I could scoop-and-
level, but this can also vary the exact weight. Should I be worried
about being this precise?
One thing I've noticed about my sourdoughs...they always end up so
much more dense than regular yeast risen and salt risen breads. Any
tips to adjust that it may get lighter/more spongey?

On Sun, 13 Jul 2008 13:38:48 -0700 (PDT), rob norman
> wrote:

>I am thinking I should get a scale for the kitchen if I am to
>seriously get into my bread fascination. At least, to get a true
>result to fine tune. When scooping by the cup of fraction of a cup,
>there's a margin of error a bit higher than I would like as it's
>getting packed at times depending on the scoop. I could scoop-and-
>level, but this can also vary the exact weight. Should I be worried
>about being this precise?
>One thing I've noticed about my sourdoughs...they always end up so
>much more dense than regular yeast risen and salt risen breads. Any
>tips to adjust that it may get lighter/more spongey?

Howdy,

Indeed, weighing your ingredients is likely to be (somewhat)
more accurate, but that is not the reason I suggest it to
folks.

I have been using a scale for many years simply because it
is incredibly convenient:

I just put a container on the scale, touch the tare button,
and dump stuff in until I see the weight I seek. It takes
moments.

About the density:

Are you using pans, or free-form loaves?

It is easier if using pans... Whatever you are doing now
with regard to ingredients, time, and temperature; do the
same thing, but allow for a longer final fermentation, that
is, just let the loaf "rise a bit longer."

With that, you should have a "lighter" loaf.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

rob norman wrote:
> I am thinking I should get a scale for the kitchen if I am to
> seriously get into my bread fascination. At least, to get a true
> result to fine tune. When scooping by the cup of fraction of a cup,
> there's a margin of error a bit higher than I would like as it's
> getting packed at times depending on the scoop. I could scoop-and-
> level, but this can also vary the exact weight. Should I be worried
> about being this precise?
> One thing I've noticed about my sourdoughs...they always end up so
> much more dense than regular yeast risen and salt risen breads. Any
> tips to adjust that it may get lighter/more spongey?

I have found the humidity changes make a difference in how much water
the flour soaks up so I never really use the same amount twice. I work
the last in while kneading and it is usually close, but...

I also find if I work my dough as soft as I can handle it, it makes a
softer end product that usually needs a pan for shape.

I also was getting a lot denser and heavier bread which my market does
like and still asks for, but figured out how to make really light fluffy
sourdough from a link Dicky posted.

http://home.att.net/~carlsfriends/di...ctions_Rev.doc

The trick is to let it grow... and grow... and grow.... I can easily
get a 5X volume grow using Dicky's method which gives an amazingly light
and airy loaf.

Basically instead of looking for the 2X volume grow commercial yeast
gives, Dicky's and mine at least, SD culture will keep on growing for at
least 8 hours. More than that and I start to get a 'flying crust' or
big air bubbles right under the crust line.

Here are a couple photos of my version of a 'billowy' SD loaf:

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...f/thestart.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n.../thefinish.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...tuff/crumb.jpg
http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...ff/ASDloaf.jpg

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...
> ... I can easily get a 5X volume grow using Dicky's method which gives an
> amazingly light and airy loaf. ...

Maybe so, but I do not think your photos are as convincing as some of mine, like
http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/bread.html

(Well, that was a while back, and I no longer use extreme measures to achieve
a rounded loaf, nor an incubator other than a cover to prevent drying. I have
mentioned that, with the flours I have been able to get in the Northeast, the one
that gives the best rise is bromated (GM50111).)

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message ng.com...
>> ... I can easily get a 5X volume grow using Dicky's method which gives an
>> amazingly light and airy loaf. ...
>
> Maybe so, but I do not think your photos are as convincing as some of mine, like
> http://home.att.net/~dick.adams/bread.html
>
> that gives the best rise is bromated (GM50111).)
>

I also like the foil pan for holding shape until it sets in the oven. I
use that for my baguettes sometimes instead of a canvas strip and dowel
poles some bakers use as troughs for the rise.

I also have some nice low sided 'Pyrex' style casserole dishes that
shape the loaf nice.

Next time I make a tube loaf in a coffee can I will take nice photos if
I can. The tube shape makes the volume difference very easy to see
because it is just a height difference.

No real matter, your method works very well and I only use generic
Canadian 'all purpose' flour, either unbleached or bleached with my
homemade starter.

I want to try for some 'billowy' bagels soon. :-)

Mike

WOW!
I expected a response or maybe two, but this was absolutely great!
Thank you all so much for your input, and I do so appreciate the
photos. That makes me just feel like my efforts are right there and
spot on. I don't photo much of my food, I am too busy munching on it!
The baguettes Mike, they look totally professional. And Dicky, the
boule loaves were very artsy; I like the color.
I am curious, I've come across recipes that identify a basic SD
starter as just about a 1:1 ratio of flour (unbleached) and water, but
have also seen recipes calling for 1:1 flour to milk. ?? Any insight
on which provides for a stronger "sour"? I got a good flavor out of
the last batch, but I cannot describe what was done. The starter was
my own, it was actually the 50% scrap to toss as I had replenished it
that day, just wanted to see what my starter was tasting like. A buddy
came over and she resumed my progress on the recipe whilest I manned
the grill outdoors [nobody touches the grill except my wife or
I!]...so the bread didn't come out super dense, though I am still
gunning for the lighter, billowy boule loaf of SD. Also, the inside
was a nice, almost tart sour...but the crust, to my dissatisfaction,
was relatively bland. I am *******izing recipes and plugging in the
parts I want to make work. I just didn't want to stand on the
shoulders of those who had already accomplished the good bread without
"earning" it for myself.
Next attempt at my SD loaves, will most definitely take pics. Thanks
for all yours! It's a fun hobby!!
Appreciatively,
~Rob

Rob,

you should bake the way the suits you as far as your taste goes and
don't bother asking for other peoples advice on that. Why would you?
It's your taste.

As soon as you get someone suggesting 'putting milk the starter is
crazy' someone else will come in and accuse them of being a 'purist'
which is a polite way of dismissing their opinion as narrow minded
bigotry. There's a lot of people that add milk for all kinds of
reasons and they'd probably be adding sugar and potatoes and cheese
and all kinds of things.

There's a school of thought that goes 'it's called 'sour-dough' not
'sour-bread' so why are you trying to get your bread sour'?

You could argue that if you're going to add milk, something that is by
the way alakaline to get sour bread then why not just dip your baked
bread in vinegar before you eat it? You could even buy lactic, acetic,
malic, citric, tartaric or tanic acids and try adding that to your
dough.

Personally I think your question is akin to asking what you should put
on your pizza.

What are you looking for? French, German, British, East coast, West
coast, Mid west, Mad Mom, Ditzy Dad, High brow, low brow, educated,
uneducated, trailor trash, Stepford Wife? What anlge are you going
for?

Jim



On 23 Jul, 10:24, rob norman > wrote:
...
> *I am curious, I've come across recipes that identify a basic SD
> starter as just about a 1:1 ratio of flour (unbleached) and water, but
> have also seen recipes calling for 1:1 flour to milk. ?? Any insight
> on which provides for a stronger "sour"? ...
> Appreciatively,
> ~Rob

rob norman wrote:

> I am curious, I've come across recipes that identify a basic SD
> starter as just about a 1:1 ratio of flour (unbleached) and water, but
> have also seen recipes calling for 1:1 flour to milk. ?? Any insight
> on which provides for a stronger "sour"?


I find 'both' work well. I make SD English muffins that call for an
overnight ferment of starter and milk and flour as well as I use milk in
lots of loaves of bread, depending on what texture I am aiming for. The
muffins turned out beautiful and we had eggs Benedict for supper last
night.

I find the best 'sour' taste comes from a long ferment. I can get half
decent 'sour' from a long ferment overnight of the starter, but not near
as nice as a long last rise.

I just pulled a loaf out of the oven now at 10:15 AM that I started
growing at 9:30 PM last night. I took a tbsp of my active sponge and
added 500 ml water with enough flour stirred in to ball up and a tsp of
salt. I then kneaded the dough and let it rest in a ball covered on the
counter until about 11:30, then loafed it and let it rise until 9:30 AM
this morning when I baked it. I might have let it rise more, except it
'escaped' the pyrex dish it was in and was starting to spread over the
cookie sheet I had the dish on. It 'mushroomed' big time. LOL. Turned
out really nice with a crispy sour crust.

I loosely base my 'sour' loaves on Dick's 'Billowly' SD loaf. His
method of using one small amount of starter with lots of food for
growing works very well for me.

Mike

On Jul 28, 4:29*am, Mike Romain > wrote:
> rob norman wrote:
> > *I am curious, I've come across recipes that identify a basic SD
> > starter as just about a 1:1 ratio of flour (unbleached) and water, but
> > have also seen recipes calling for 1:1 flour to milk. ?? Any insight
> > on which provides for a stronger "sour"?
>
> I find 'both' work well. *I make SD English muffins that call for an
> overnight ferment of starter and milk and flour as well as I use milk in
> lots of loaves of bread, depending on what texture I am aiming for. *The
> muffins turned out beautiful and we had eggs Benedict for supper last
> night.
>
> I find the best 'sour' taste comes from a long ferment. *I can get half
> decent 'sour' from a long ferment overnight of the starter, but not near
> as nice as a long last rise.
>
> I just pulled a loaf out of the oven now at 10:15 AM that I started
> growing at 9:30 PM last night. *I took a tbsp of my active sponge and
> added 500 ml water with enough flour stirred in to ball up and a tsp of
> salt. *I then kneaded the dough and let it rest in a ball covered on the
> counter until about 11:30, then loafed it and let it rise until 9:30 AM
> this morning when I baked it. *I might have let it rise more, except it
> 'escaped' the pyrex dish it was in and was starting to spread over the
> cookie sheet I had the dish on. *It 'mushroomed' big time. *LOL. *Turned
> out really nice with a crispy sour crust.
>
> I loosely base my 'sour' loaves on Dick's 'Billowly' SD loaf. *His
> method of using one small amount of starter with lots of food for
> growing works very well for me.
>
> Mike

Mike,
I totally know that mushroom loaf feeling from the time as a loaf of
non-SD bread was baking and it had already risen a bit too high; still
came out great though and the crust was delicious! Your posts have
been very informative and I appreciate your info. I will take pics
this next time, I just actually need to make the time...seems in short
supply these days )
Dicky, thank you as well...I like the bounce back and forth between
your and Mike's input. It's very fun to watch a bit of friendly
competition.

All in all, as a beginner of this food...I made it pretty clear how I
am trying to achieve the sour flavor of the bread as well as a sour
crust. It seems to me the pessimistic view came from the one input
about "dismissing an opinion" and "bigotry"...it's cooking. Lighten up
and have some fun with it...the minute you take it as seriously as you
are, there's no fun left in it.
But Mike, Dicky and Kenneth; thank you for your inputs and I look
forward to showing you my next attempt...hopefully with tastier
results! Show ya soon, take care all!

On Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:00:38 -0700 (PDT), rob norman
> wrote:

>>SNIP<<

>It seems to me the pessimistic view came from the one input
>about "dismissing an opinion" and "bigotry"...it's cooking. Lighten up
>and have some fun with it...the minute you take it as seriously as you
>are, there's no fun left in it.
>But Mike, Dicky and Kenneth; thank you for your inputs and I look
>forward to showing you my next attempt...hopefully with tastier
>results! Show ya soon, take care all!

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your kind comments...

A suggestion I would add (in case you might not already be
doing it) is to keep careful notes.

When I started out, I neglected to do that, and often found
that I could not duplicate something I liked, or avoid
something that went wrong.

Now, I am quite a bit more careful to note the temperature
of my ingredients, their weights, and the times of various
stages in the process.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> [ ... ]
> Now, I am quite a bit more careful to note the temperature
> of my ingredients, their weights, and the times of various
> stages in the process.

Kenneth, now that you are writing down everything in exactitude,
do you find that your results are better? Do you, perchance, have
any before-and-after photos?

Ol' "Boron", you know, just wings it -- not even a recipe! Her
photos imply that she is making presentable bread, in spite of her
apparent contempt for exactitude. For instance, see
http://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/

--
Dicky

I have to agree Dick,

I can honestly say that all my mistakes were fixed by knowing what the
dough should look like when it needs to go to the next stage. Sure I
could do the same with thermometers and stop watches, but you'd need
to know what the best time is and the best temp for that time. How
long is it going to take you to work that out, especially if you
aren't already an accomplished baker, add in you made your starter
yourself...? So much easier to let the dough tell you when it's time.

Jim

On 7 Aug, 18:15, "Dick Adams" > wrote:
> "Kenneth" > wrote in messagenews:fi8m94du3b1p5opld7748sfbduqkvdagsc@4ax .com...
> > [ ... ]
> > Now, I am quite a bit more careful to note the temperature
> > of my ingredients, their weights, and the times of various
> > stages in the process.
>
> Kenneth, now that you are writing down everything in exactitude,
> do you find that your results are better? *Do you, perchance, have
> any before-and-after photos?
>
> Ol' "Boron", you know, just wings it -- not even a recipe! *Her
> photos imply that she is making presentable bread, in spite of her
> apparent contempt for exactitude. *For instance, seehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/25648800@N04/
>
> --
> Dicky

"TG" > wrote in message ...

> I can honestly say that all my mistakes were fixed ...

Honesty, of course, is paramount!

rob norman wrote:

> Mike,
> I totally know that mushroom loaf feeling from the time as a loaf of
> non-SD bread was baking and it had already risen a bit too high;

I kinds figure the bread didn't actually rise too high, I just used too
small of a container. :-)

> still
> came out great though and the crust was delicious! Your posts have
> been very informative and I appreciate your info. I will take pics
> this next time, I just actually need to make the time...seems in short
> supply these days )

Thanks, I did get a couple photos of that mushroomed loaf, just didn't
have HD space to store them until now.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...oomedbread.jpg

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/n...eCJ7/crumb.jpg

Mike

On Aug 7, 11:29 am, Kenneth > wrote:

> A suggestion I would add (in case you might not already be
> doing it) is to keep careful notes.

I'd add:

a) Get that scale. It really is much easier than fiddle-futzing with a
cup.

b) get a yogurt thermometer so you can keep track of the ferment.

c) reproduce <exactly> several breads from a good baker. Jeff Hamelman
has a good book out. Peter Reinhard has several.

d) download one of the dough spreadsheets at sourdoughhome.com and
learn to use it. Watch the excellent stretch and fold video there
too.

You can learn to make excellent bread in 10 years with patient
anarchy, or, you can defer your creativity and let a professional
baker teach you (via his/her book/video) rather quickly. Bread baking
is 5% creativity and 95% execution. Measuring tools and sound
technique are good to have.

On 8 Aug, 17:35, Will > wrote:
....
> You can learn to make excellent bread in 10 years with patient
> anarchy, ...

If you're lucky. The chances are you'll forget what good bread is and
think the crap that you've been bragging about is actually something
to post photos of. Oh, no, that's...

Jim