I made a sourdough starter a few months ago and have been figuring out
the basics since then, but there are two general questions I'm hoping
someone here can help me with:

1. About how much salt do you use in your dough? I tend to start with
about a half-cup of fairly thin starter, add a half-cup of water, and
then flour from there (I have small oven so I make small batches). To
this I've been adding about a teaspoon of salt. Does this seem
reasonable? The dough rises awfully slowly, and I suspect salt might
be to blame. I've left out salt altogether by accident on a few
occasions, and the dough sure rose well, but tasted terrible.

2. What makes bread chewy? My bread tastes fine, but it's awfully
dense and crumbly, and what I'd really like is the kind of chewy loaf
with big air pockets in it. Is it just kneading time, or are there
other factors involved?

Sorry for the uninspired questions, but I feel like I'm at a point
where experimentation isn't providing the answers. Thanks to anyone
who takes a moment to respond!

Eric

Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> I made a sourdough starter a few months ago and have been figuring out
> the basics since then, but there are two general questions I'm hoping
> someone here can help me with:
>
> 1. About how much salt do you use in your dough? I tend to start with
> about a half-cup of fairly thin starter, add a half-cup of water, and
> then flour from there (I have small oven so I make small batches). To
> this I've been adding about a teaspoon of salt. Does this seem
> reasonable? The dough rises awfully slowly, and I suspect salt might
> be to blame. I've left out salt altogether by accident on a few
> occasions, and the dough sure rose well, but tasted terrible.
>
>
1.8 - 2 % salt - how you figure out volume measurements, I have no clue
since I never did them with bread.

dissolve salt in your dough water first before mixing the dough
> 2. What makes bread chewy? My bread tastes fine, but it's awfully
> dense and crumbly, and what I'd really like is the kind of chewy loaf
> with big air pockets in it. Is it just kneading time, or are there
> other factors involved?
>
>
bread flour with higher gluten content, autolyze (20 minutes sitting
with all water and flour just mixed, but not kneaded) = gluten
development and use a starter which is not too much "over-fermented" i.
e. over-sour.

big air pockets: wetter dough, hot oven with baking stone.
> Sorry for the uninspired questions, but I feel like I'm at a point
> where experimentation isn't providing the answers. Thanks to anyone
> who takes a moment to respond!
>
>
no prob. - just starts discussions again and arguing what is better or
"right".

> Eric
> _______________________________________________
> Rec.food.sourdough mailing list
>
> http://www.mountainbitwarrior.com/ma...food.sourdough
>
>

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 00:15:00 -0700 (PDT), Eric Abrahamsen
> wrote:

>I made a sourdough starter a few months ago and have been figuring out
>the basics since then, but there are two general questions I'm hoping
>someone here can help me with:
>
>1. About how much salt do you use in your dough? I tend to start with
>about a half-cup of fairly thin starter, add a half-cup of water, and
>then flour from there (I have small oven so I make small batches). To
>this I've been adding about a teaspoon of salt. Does this seem
>reasonable? The dough rises awfully slowly, and I suspect salt might
>be to blame. I've left out salt altogether by accident on a few
>occasions, and the dough sure rose well, but tasted terrible.
>
>2. What makes bread chewy? My bread tastes fine, but it's awfully
>dense and crumbly, and what I'd really like is the kind of chewy loaf
>with big air pockets in it. Is it just kneading time, or are there
>other factors involved?
>
>Sorry for the uninspired questions, but I feel like I'm at a point
>where experimentation isn't providing the answers. Thanks to anyone
>who takes a moment to respond!
>
>Eric

Hi Eric,

Most around here use salt at the rate of about 2% of the
weight of the flour.

So if I am doing a loaf that has 1000g of flout, it will
have 20g of salt.

The big hole (coarse crumb), chewy texture, results come
from three main variables:

Higher protein flours tend to produce breads that are more
chewy (bagels are made with a very high protein flour.) And
higher hydration tends to increase the size of the holes.
With sufficiently high protein flour, dough can be made that
has a hydration of 75% (again, that is the ratio of the
weight of the water to the weight of the flour.) I would
guess from your description that you are using far too
little water.

In addition, longer fermentation tends to coarsen the crumb,
that this last is a bit more tricky because if you let the
dough ferment too long, the gluten will break down, and the
loaf will not be able to hold the gas that is produced by
the fermentation. It can just collapse, rather than
increasing in volume.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Welcome to R.F.SD, Eric!

"Eric Abrahamsen" > wrote in message
...
>I made a sourdough starter a few months ago and have been figuring out
> the basics since then, but there are two general questions I'm hoping
> someone here can help me with:
You're doing just fine. Keep it up. With experience and the things you'll
pick up here, you'll soon be making sourdough bread like a pro.

> 1. About how much salt do you use in your dough? I tend to start with
The amount I use is roughly 1 slightly-rounded teaspoon per 3-cups of flour.
A bit more or a bit less isn't going to affect your dough in any noticeable
manner. Here's an example: http://tinyurl.com/3k876p

....
> 2. What makes bread chewy? My bread tastes fine, but it's awfully
> dense and crumbly, and what I'd really like is the kind of chewy loaf
> with big air pockets in it. Is it just kneading time, or are there
> other factors involved?
There are several factors that affect "chewy" with SD bread. Reading your
query leads me to believe that your bread is dense and possibly over
proofed.

First; the most important factor in 'crust' chewiness and a lofty bread body
full of holes is probably the flour. You should be using a strong bread
flour--something that will generate lots of gluten bonds. Such flour is
usually labeled as being 'best' for bread. Some flours, like whole wheat,
can reduce your bread's loft by inhibiting the final rise a bit. You can
read a bit more about flour he http://tinyurl.com/3npbu9.

Over the years, having used many different kinds flour, I've settled on Gold
Medal, Harvest King as my preferred bread flour. Although we travel a great
deal, which gives me ample occasion to sample other flours, I've made great
bread with all manner of flours. In any event, it works well for me. As
with all things baking, YMMV. In addition, some moisture in the form of
steam during baking helps to develop the crust. You can read a bit about
that technique he http://tinyurl.com/4zdkvf

Next; kneading--while it can affect the bread building/baking process--is
highly overrated. You can make perfectly good bread without any kneading at
all. See: http://tinyurl.com/4zdkvf. I have to admit that there's a
certain feeling of accomplishment one gets from kneading. And if you enjoy
that, then by all means knead. Me? I'm wa-a-ay too lazy to do much more
than what must be done. I've been making my bread without kneading ever
since another member of this NG posted that "technique" some years ago.

Finally; a crumbly body... Probably due to multiple factors: flour,
hydration, rise times, and possibly your starter. You said you made your
own starter. While this is a time-honored tradition among SD bakers, it's
not known as the best way for a beginner to get started. I don't know why
this method always gets promulgated amongst newbie's, but it does. I
recommend that you get a proper, cultured sourdough starter from any of a
number of commercial vendors of such materials. Or--depending on where you
are, you can send me a note off-list with a snail addy, and I'll send you a
dollop of mine.

Getting a good tasting, robust starter by happenstance, is akin to a vintner
leaving his grape juice sitting out and hoping to "catch" a good yeast for
his 'must'. Can it happen? Sure! Is it likely? Hard to say with any
authority. Many baking here do it all the time. In my own experience, it
never seemed to work well for me.

In any event, assuming that you found a good combination of "critters", the
next step is to allow them to work to form the gas that lofts your bread and
the gluten strands that hold things together. If they don't get to work
long enough in a warm enough environment, they won't be able to make the gas
to rise the dough. If they work too long, the bread comes out too sour
(although that's a subjective evaluation) and the bacteria will begin to
consume the gluten strands that hold the bread together.

A good starter will permit you to see the development of your dough as you
go through the various stages. With a bit of time and practice, you'll be
making bread like a pro...

I hope that some of my tips help you. Above all, ENJOY the process!

> Sorry for the uninspired questions, but I feel like I'm at a point
Not to worry. Your questions are exactly on point. Keep 'em coming. And
again, welcome to a larger world...(:-o)!


L8r all,
Dusty

On Oct 12, 2:15 am, Eric Abrahamsen > wrote:

>... About how much salt do you use in your dough?

As Sam and Kenneth posted: 2%. Google is your best bet for finding
conversions. I entered "teaspoons to grams" as a search phrase and
this appeared...

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/gram_calc.htm

It has specific calculations for hundreds of items and will get you
going, but a gram scale with tare function makes baking (and using
books and on-line resources) easier. The MyWeigh 7000 scale is a good
bet. Google it.

As you already know, running a successful fermentation takes some
skill. I find that storing mixed dough for 12-24 hours in the
refrigerator, or cool cellar, helps the crumb and flavor a great deal.
I also run my final proof at 80-85 F. This means pushing the dough...
an oven with a light or pilot light, a heat pad within an inverted
box... there are lots simple ways to create a small warm "proofing
box". But it really helps. The effort is small, payback is large.

The third leg, (aging and proof pushing being the first two) is dough
handling. Most folks overlook this crucial area because they assume
their mixer-with-dough-hook develops good quality gluten. You might go
he

http://www.sourdoughhome.com/

and look at Mike Avery's tips and techniques page. He has a good video
stream on dough stretching and folding. Gluten forms as the flour
proteins hydrolyze. With correct handling you can align the gluten
from scattered globs to well defined sheets. These sheets then trap
fermentation gas. Trapping gas is the key to good rises and open crumb
structures. Stretching and folding is a technique to develop and
laminate gluten sheets. It works. And... it creates an extraordinary
positive feedback loop, you'll learn to feel good dough. Elasticity,
extensibility, and fermentation pressure (what the French call vigor)
are characteristics that
you should get acquainted with.

Finally, be sure, be very sure, be absolutely sure, that your starter
is well refreshed. I always start small, slaking down about 40 grams
of stiff old dough (size of walnut) and refreshing several times,
doubling each time. You do not want a cup of sour starter when you
start. That's disaster. Sour, if any, comes during the final proof
(and that's a whole 'nothr thread). I suspect a good deal of your
proofing trouble comes from lax refreshment. To get lots of gas and
to have correct acid balance which tones your gluten, you must have
good starter.

Sam, Kenneth, Dusty and Will, thank you all SO much for the detailed
responses! Sort of restores your faith in usenet. This is more than
enough to make me rethink several of my baking habits, and give me
fodder for a few more months' of experimentation, though I'm sure I'll
be back here again. Getting more precise with salt and hydration
measurements will be step number one. Dusty, I may yet take you up on
the offer of starter, if mine continues to disappoint...

Thanks again!

Eric

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 22:05:05 -0700 (PDT), Eric Abrahamsen
> wrote:

>Sam, Kenneth, Dusty and Will, thank you all SO much for the detailed
>responses! Sort of restores your faith in usenet. This is more than
>enough to make me rethink several of my baking habits, and give me
>fodder for a few more months' of experimentation, though I'm sure I'll
>be back here again. Getting more precise with salt and hydration
>measurements will be step number one. Dusty, I may yet take you up on
>the offer of starter, if mine continues to disappoint...
>
>Thanks again!
>
>Eric

Hi again Eric,

One other thing that I would mention...

I'd suggest that you try to get in the habit of taking
careful notes on the details of the process for each thing
you bake. Keep track of the temperatures, the time, the
weights etc.

I know that it has helped me significantly:

More times than I care to describe, I have had a particular
plan in mind, but then have had the experience of having
some part of the process interrupted, or extended, in one
way or another.

When that sort of thing happens, the results will be
different. They might be better, or worse, but, I have
learned that if I do not write it all down in detail, I
won't be able to reproduce my occasional successes, or avoid
repetition of my failures.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

An excellent point, "Kenneth", I should have stressed that as well. Looks
like I'm gonna hafta do some editing in my directions to include that vital
step. I too remember how much it helped my SD baking. Thanks again for
pointing it out...

Dusty

"Kenneth" > wrote in message
...
....
> One other thing that I would mention...
>
> I'd suggest that you try to get in the habit of taking
> careful notes on the details of the process for each thing
> you bake. Keep track of the temperatures, the time, the
> weights etc.
>
> I know that it has helped me significantly:
>
> More times than I care to describe, I have had a particular
> plan in mind, but then have had the experience of having
> some part of the process interrupted, or extended, in one
> way or another.
>
> When that sort of thing happens, the results will be
> different. They might be better, or worse, but, I have
> learned that if I do not write it all down in detail, I
> won't be able to reproduce my occasional successes, or avoid
> repetition of my failures.
....

On Oct 13, 9:25 am, Kenneth > wrote:

> I'd suggest that you try to get in the habit of taking
> careful notes on the details of the process...

You know Kenneth, that got me to thinking... and I think there's a
step even before note taking... which is to resolutely, and
explicitly, follow someone else's notes...follow experience,
organization, and discipline. One can always ascend to creative chaos
later :-).

Jeffery Hammelman, Daniel Leader, Ruth Beranbaum, Peter Reinhart, are
but a few of the baker-writers who have excellent books available in
public libraries. Each offers precise formulae and procedures.

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 07:46:36 -0700, "BakerBoy"
> wrote:


>"Kenneth" > wrote in message
.. .
>...
>> One other thing that I would mention...
>>
>> I'd suggest that you try to get in the habit of taking
>> careful notes on the details of the process for each thing
>> you bake. Keep track of the temperatures, the time, the
>> weights etc.
>>
>> I know that it has helped me significantly:
>>
>> More times than I care to describe, I have had a particular
>> plan in mind, but then have had the experience of having
>> some part of the process interrupted, or extended, in one
>> way or another.
>>
>> When that sort of thing happens, the results will be
>> different. They might be better, or worse, but, I have
>> learned that if I do not write it all down in detail, I
>> won't be able to reproduce my occasional successes, or avoid
>> repetition of my failures.
>...
>
>
>An excellent point, "Kenneth", I should have stressed that as well. Looks
>like I'm gonna hafta do some editing in my directions to include that vital
>step. I too remember how much it helped my SD baking. Thanks again for
>pointing it out...
>
>Dusty
>
Hi again,

To me, you are Dusty, rather than "Dusty"...<g>

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Mon, 13 Oct 2008 08:12:03 -0700 (PDT), Will
> wrote:

>On Oct 13, 9:25 am, Kenneth > wrote:
>
>> I'd suggest that you try to get in the habit of taking
>> careful notes on the details of the process...
>
>You know Kenneth, that got me to thinking... and I think there's a
>step even before note taking... which is to resolutely, and
>explicitly, follow someone else's notes...follow experience,
>organization, and discipline. One can always ascend to creative chaos
>later :-).
>
>Jeffery Hammelman, Daniel Leader, Ruth Beranbaum, Peter Reinhart, are
>but a few of the baker-writers who have excellent books available in
>public libraries. Each offers precise formulae and procedures.

Hi Will,

I agree with you completely, and was not intending to
suggest otherwise.

It really is funny when I think of the many times I (for
example) ran out of a particular ingredient:

I would think "Damn... I only have 200g of wheat berries...
But, rather than abandoning ship, I'll try this recipe with
those plus 200g of rye and see what happens."

But too often, the results were great, and I could not
remember how I got there.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Well my first experiment was a disaster (too many new/unknown factors)
but the second was very promising. Kenneth, it looks like you were
right about the dryness of my original dough. Thanks again to all for
the great advice.

I've got one follow-up question: how does the starter itself figure in
to the hydration measurements? I'm using 400g of flour, so that's 300g
or so of water -- does the starter count as part of the weight of the
water, or do I make an estimate of how to split it between flour and
water weights? Do the quantity and liquidity of the starter make much
difference to how the dough behaves?

Thanks once more, this has been tremendously helpful! And I'm now
keeping a bread journal.

Yours,
Eric

On Fri, 17 Oct 2008 19:39:51 -0700 (PDT), Eric Abrahamsen
> wrote:

>Well my first experiment was a disaster (too many new/unknown factors)
>but the second was very promising. Kenneth, it looks like you were
>right about the dryness of my original dough. Thanks again to all for
>the great advice.
>
>I've got one follow-up question: how does the starter itself figure in
>to the hydration measurements? I'm using 400g of flour, so that's 300g
>or so of water -- does the starter count as part of the weight of the
>water, or do I make an estimate of how to split it between flour and
>water weights? Do the quantity and liquidity of the starter make much
>difference to how the dough behaves?
>
>Thanks once more, this has been tremendously helpful! And I'm now
>keeping a bread journal.
>
>Yours,
>Eric

Hi Eric,

I keep my starter at 100% hydration.

That means that it is made up of equal weights of water, and
flour.

That system of measurement is called "Bakers' Percentage"
and it makes calculations very convenient.

It is just the ratio (by weight) of the water (or other
liquids) to flour. Note that it is NOT the ratio of water to
the total weight of the dough.

So, a 60% hydration dough is one that has 60 grams of water
for every 100 grams of flour.

It seems that folks who are starting out tend to make their
doughs too dry. I guess that is because it makes them easier
to handle.

But, with a bit of practice, it is easy to make wheat doughs
in the range of 70-75% with very little trouble.

Also remember that when first mixed, a dough will seem very
sticky. But, just letting it sit for 20 minutes or so will
cause the flour to absorb the water more fully. With that,
it will become much easier to handle.

With all that as intro...

Yes, both the water and the flour in your starter contribute
to the final dough, and should be included in the
calculations.

For example, using the 100% hydration starter I suggested,
200 grams of starter is just 100g of water, and 100g of
flour.

If I add 200g of such starter to 500g of flour and 320g of
water I would have a dough with a total of 420g of water,
and 600g of flour.

For that dough, the ratio of water to flour is 70% (420/600)

The only other thing needed would be some salt. Typically,
that is added at the rate of about 2% (again, by weight
because we are using the Bakers' Percentage system.) So, the
dough we are working with would get the addition of 12g of
salt (12/600 = 2%).

I hope that this is of some help, and wish you the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> Well my first experiment was a disaster (too many new/unknown factors)
> but the second was very promising. Kenneth, it looks like you were
> right about the dryness of my original dough. Thanks again to all for
> the great advice.
>
> I've got one follow-up question: how does the starter itself figure in
> to the hydration measurements? I'm using 400g of flour, so that's 300g
> or so of water -- does the starter count as part of the weight of the
> water, or do I make an estimate of how to split it between flour and
> water weights? Do the quantity and liquidity of the starter make much
> difference to how the dough behaves?
>
What really happens would require very precise measurements of time,
temperature, initial starter conditions and all that.

During fermentation, the organisms convert carbohydrates into CO2 which
escapes and water which makes your starter more hydrated as fermentation
goes on.
There is also a weight loss involved - the gas escaping.

Luckily, for a hobby baker, all these factors can be neglected. I
measure fermentation weight losses in the 2. stage of the Detmold
3-Stage process (24 hours) in the area of 1.2, 1.5 %.

With that ignored and your question if starter hydration makes a
difference? It sure does.

Does it matter in your bread making depends how much starter you use, at
what hydration and how much you care at all as long as the bread comes
out fine.

If you make a particular dough, you may notice hydration changes of 1 %
have an effect.

If your starter has 100 % hydration and you use 15 % starter flour in
your (assumed white flour) dough, 1000 g dough weight, 2 % salt, 60 %
dough hydration, the total water is 370 g and from that, the starter
water is 93 g.

( pulled this from my calculator: http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SDcalc04.pl )

If you vary your starter by 10 %, the water from that changes by 9 g
which is 3 % in total dough and you sure will notice that.

There is no way to avoid considering starter flour and water in your
bread making and you can pretty much neglect the fermentation losses

If you make your starter amount so small that the water falls below 1 %
- you're growing a new starter.


Sam

Looks I'll need graph paper for my baking journal!

Thanks again,
eric

On Oct 18, 11:23*am, Sam >
wrote:
> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> > Well my first experiment was a disaster (too many new/unknown factors)
> > but the second was very promising. Kenneth, it looks like you were
> > right about the dryness of my original dough. Thanks again to all for
> > the great advice.
>
> > I've got one follow-up question: how does the starter itself figure in
> > to the hydration measurements? I'm using 400g of flour, so that's 300g
> > or so of water -- does the starter count as part of the weight of the
> > water, or do I make an estimate of how to split it between flour and
> > water weights? Do the quantity and liquidity of the starter make much
> > difference to how the dough behaves?
>
> What really happens would require very precise measurements of time,
> temperature, initial starter conditions and all that.
>
> During fermentation, the organisms convert carbohydrates into CO2 which
> escapes and water which makes your starter more hydrated as fermentation
> goes on.
> There is also a weight loss involved - the gas escaping.
>
> Luckily, for a hobby baker, all these factors can be neglected. I
> measure fermentation weight losses in the 2. stage of the Detmold
> 3-Stage process (24 hours) in the area of 1.2, 1.5 %.
>
> With that ignored and your question if starter hydration makes a
> difference? It sure does.
>
> Does it matter in your bread making depends how much starter you use, at
> what hydration and how much you care at all as long as the bread comes
> out fine.
>
> If you make a particular dough, you may notice hydration changes of 1 %
> have an effect.
>
> If your starter has 100 % hydration and you use 15 % starter flour in
> your (assumed white flour) dough, 1000 g dough weight, 2 % salt, 60 %
> dough hydration, the total water is 370 g and from that, the starter
> water is 93 g.
>
> ( pulled this from my calculator: *http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SDcalc04..pl)
>
> If you vary your starter by 10 %, the water from that changes by 9 g
> which is 3 % in total dough and you sure will notice that.
>
> There is no way to avoid considering starter flour and water in your
> bread making and you can pretty much neglect the fermentation losses
>
> If you make your starter amount so small that the water falls below 1 %
> - you're growing a new starter.
>
> Sam

Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> Looks I'll need graph paper for my baking journal!
>
> Thanks again,
> eric
>
> O

Naa - just a scale for now. Thermometer, wishbone, crystal ball later.

I print out the web-calculator pages, they have date and time anyway,
write on those and file them in a 3-ring binder.

Sam

"Sam" > wrote in message news:mailman.18.1224300208.3240.rec.food.sourdough @www.mountainbitwarrior..com...
> Eric Abrahamsen wrote:
> > Well my first experiment was a disaster (too many new/unknown factors)
> > but the second was very promising. Kenneth, it looks like you were
> > right about the dryness of my original dough. Thanks again to all for
> > the great advice.
> >
> > I've got one follow-up question: how does the starter itself figure in
> > to the hydration measurements? I'm using 400g of flour, so that's 300g
> > or so of water -- does the starter count as part of the weight of the
> > water, or do I make an estimate of how to split it between flour and
> > water weights? Do the quantity and liquidity of the starter make much
> > difference to how the dough behaves?
> >
> What really happens would require very precise measurements of time,
> temperature, initial starter conditions and all that.
>
> During fermentation, the organisms convert carbohydrates into CO2 which
> escapes and water which makes your starter more hydrated as fermentation
> goes on.
> There is also a weight loss involved - the gas escaping.
>
> Luckily, for a hobby baker, all these factors can be neglected. I
> measure fermentation weight losses in the 2. stage of the Detmold
> 3-Stage process (24 hours) in the area of 1.2, 1.5 %.
>
> With that ignored and your question if starter hydration makes a
> difference? It sure does.
>
> Does it matter in your bread making depends how much starter you use, at
> what hydration and how much you care at all as long as the bread comes
> out fine.
>
> If you make a particular dough, you may notice hydration changes of 1 %
> have an effect.
>
> If your starter has 100 % hydration and you use 15 % starter flour in
> your (assumed white flour) dough, 1000 g dough weight, 2 % salt, 60 %
> dough hydration, the total water is 370 g and from that, the starter
> water is 93 g.
>
> ( pulled this from my calculator: http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SDcalc04.pl )
>
> If you vary your starter by 10 %, the water from that changes by 9 g
> which is 3 % in total dough and you sure will notice that.
>
> There is no way to avoid considering starter flour and water in your
> bread making and you can pretty much neglect the fermentation losses
>
> If you make your starter amount so small that the water falls below 1 %
> - you're growing a new starter.
>
>
> Sam
>
>