Hi everyone.

I have started milling my own flour with my home flour mill. I have
also started a pretty promising rye starter. I have been digging
through the internet for information on how to go about making a 100%
or nearly 100% rye sourdough.

I have a good general understanding of what to do to make a rye
sourdough, but I would like some help in narrowing a couple things
down.

Here are my basic questions:

There are some really widely divergent figures given in different
recipes. I have come across a couple recipes which look fine, but the
figures are so different that I don't know which one to believe.

I am curious about 1) how long to proof or multiple stage proof, and
2) baking - time and temp?

I have narrowed it down to two general methods that I would like to
try.

Ronald Feldstein gives a promising method:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...6255bc3f fa8f

Is this a good one to follow, given that this is my first attempt at a
pure rye sourdough?

No Spam also gives a method that sounds like it comes from lots of
experience, but seems rather complex:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...a4107758 1846

Would this be a good method to follow, and/or better than Feldstein's
above? Bear in mind, I don't have a food scale.

I will continue to search through this group, but any advice would be
appreciated. I don't even care if this attempt comes out poorly, I
want to learn how to do a good rye sourdough.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2008 20:33:03 -0800 (PST), Jason
> wrote:

>Hi everyone.
>
>I have started milling my own flour with my home flour mill. I have
>also started a pretty promising rye starter. I have been digging
>through the internet for information on how to go about making a 100%
>or nearly 100% rye sourdough.
>
>I have a good general understanding of what to do to make a rye
>sourdough, but I would like some help in narrowing a couple things
>down.
>
>Here are my basic questions:
>
>There are some really widely divergent figures given in different
>recipes. I have come across a couple recipes which look fine, but the
>figures are so different that I don't know which one to believe.
>
>I am curious about 1) how long to proof or multiple stage proof, and
>2) baking - time and temp?
>
>I have narrowed it down to two general methods that I would like to
>try.
>
>Ronald Feldstein gives a promising method:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...6255bc3f fa8f
>
>Is this a good one to follow, given that this is my first attempt at a
>pure rye sourdough?
>
>No Spam also gives a method that sounds like it comes from lots of
>experience, but seems rather complex:
>http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...a4107758 1846
>
>Would this be a good method to follow, and/or better than Feldstein's
>above? Bear in mind, I don't have a food scale.
>
>I will continue to search through this group, but any advice would be
>appreciated. I don't even care if this attempt comes out poorly, I
>want to learn how to do a good rye sourdough.

Hi Jason,

I intend no disrespect when I ask...

What might someone provide you that you do not already have?
You already have some opinions about how to proceed. No
doubt, you could get more opinions, but ultimately you will
have to latch on to one of the approaches, and give it a
try.

The situation would be completely different were you to have
an opportunity to taste a particular bread that you loved.
Then, the opinions of the person who baked that loaf would
be of great value, but without that, it would seem that
there is little that anyone could offer at this point.

So, my suggestion would be that you simply give one of 'em a
try.

Then, if you want to modify some aspect of the result, there
are folks here who would be happy to help.

Have fun... (It's only flour).

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Jason > wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I have started milling my own flour with my home flour mill. I have
> also started a pretty promising rye starter. I have been digging
> through the internet for information on how to go about making a 100%
> or nearly 100% rye sourdough.
>[..]

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi

I use it for years - works fine, gives the stage times, going from
there is another story.
2 + 2 hrs rise,
4 + 4 hrs rise, whatever works you'll have to figure out depending on
your situations.

Sam

On Sun, Dec 28, 2008 at 9:33 PM, Jason > wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I have started milling my own flour with my home flour mill. I have
> also started a pretty promising rye starter. I have been digging
> through the internet for information on how to go about making a 100%
> or nearly 100% rye sourdough.
>[..]

http://samartha.net/cgi-bin/SD-Dtm-3-03.cgi

I use it for years - works fine, gives the stage times, going from
there is another story.
2 + 2 hrs rise,
4 + 4 hrs rise, whatever works you'll have to figure out depending on
your situations.

Sam

"Jason" > wrote in message ...

>I have a good general understanding of what to do to make a rye
> sourdough ...

That should make you the leader of the pack ... well, at least put
you up there with Samartha and his sourdough deity, namely
http://www.hofpfisterei.de/

> Here are my basic questions:

> 1) how long to proof or multiple stage proof, and
> 2) baking - time and temp?

The most basic question in all-rye baking is how to keep
the amylases from breaking down the starchy stuff, which
must do for rye loaves what gluten does for wheat loaves.

It is done by keeping the dough acidic as it ferments (rises).
Samartha's web pages give an inking of the complexity of
the task. http://samartha.net/SD/

Another thing to look at is this:
http://www.ssc.upenn.edu/~croehler/sourdough.htm
(notwithstanding that the links are in need of updating).

Most people who are making "rye" bread are using some,
if not mostly, white wheat flour.


"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...

> You already have some opinions about how to proceed. ...
> So, my suggestion would be that you simply give one of
> 'em a try.

My suggestion is to forget about it and buy some rye bread
at a bakery where they know how to make it, assuming such
a bakery exists somewhere outside of the "old world".

> Then, if you want to modify some aspect of the result, there
> are folks here who would be happy to help.

The blind are ready to lead the blind. Happily!

Some other kinds of rye bread are easier to make. For instance:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.f...2fb595e77c900e

--
Dicky

Jason wrote:
> Hi everyone.
>
> I have started milling my own flour with my home flour mill. I have
> also started a pretty promising rye starter. I have been digging
> through the internet for information on how to go about making a 100%
> or nearly 100% rye sourdough.
While I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies, I have a question: Why do you
want to make 100% rye? Most "rye bread" that I know of is made with half
or more regular bread flour. Are you looking for a particular taste,
texture or other outcome? Or just to see if you can do it?

Knowing what you want to accomplish would be a help in trying to determine
just what someone might recommend to you to do.


L8r all,
Dusty

Awesome, thanks for the replies everyone!

When I say general understanding, I mean, "vague, neophyte
understanding!"

I will let you know how everything turns out.

I should also mention that recipe 211 from the FAQ looks very doable.
I also have some hard red spring wheat so making the WW flour is
doable.

> While I'm sure you'll get a lot of replies, I have a question: *Why do you
> want to make 100% rye? *Most "rye bread" that I know of is made with half
> or more regular bread flour. *Are you looking for a particular taste,
> texture or other outcome? *Or just to see if you can do it?
>
> Knowing what you want to accomplish would be a help in trying to determine
> just what someone might recommend to you to do.
>
> L8r all,
> Dusty

I get a ~100% rye from my local farmers market that is very good. I
want to stay away from using white flour.

Since I have a flour mill, and want to learn how to do this sort of
thing, I am most attracted to a borodino style or whole rye bread. I
understand that the whole rye is difficult...hey, even finding a
consistent method is difficult! As one poster advised above, I will
pick a method and experiment. As soon as my starter is ready to go, I
am off to the races, as it were. I think for the first try I will go
for an 85% rye/15% WW loaf. Or maybe not I have another week and a
half to experiment before I have to go back to work.

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Jason > wrote:

>
> I get a ~100% rye from my local farmers market that is very good. I
> want to stay away from using white flour.
>
> Since I have a flour mill, and want to learn how to do this sort of
> thing, I am most attracted to a borodino style or whole rye bread. I
> understand that the whole rye is difficult...hey, even finding a
> consistent method is difficult! As one poster advised above, I will
> pick a method and experiment. As soon as my starter is ready to go, I
> am off to the races, as it were. I think for the first try I will go
> for an 85% rye/15% WW loaf. Or maybe not I have another week and a
> half to experiment before I have to go back to work.

The important factor with rye baking is that you get enough acidity to
suppress amylase activity sufficiently or the gas holding structure
(pentosans in case of rye) fails and you get a dense "brick" with
great taste.

The more rye you use, the more sour content you will need. The
calculator I mentioned earlier gives you the required starter amounts
(rye content) for several - up to 100 % - rye contents.

You mention WW - whole wheat - that's another factor working against
rise or gas holding ability. The more WW, the less rise.
So - suggest to stay away from WW when going up with rye content
because that adds another factor.
Use standard bread flour and increase rye content. Start with maybe 50
% rye and see how that goes with your starter growing setup and final
dough making.
Change of uncontrolled parameters (temperature, time, water content)
in starter growing is another factor to make once achieved "successes"
non-repeatable.
So - taking notes helps to improve and repeat.
You mention Borodinsky-type bread. That's a more complicated bread
(scalding, adding molasses) than plain wheat/rye or pure rye breads.
Suggest to use simpler type breads to start with and reduce complexities.
And - rye is not difficult to do, just maybe unusual to "regular" breads.

Good luck.
Sam

On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Jason > wrote:

>
> I get a ~100% rye from my local farmers market that is very good. I
> want to stay away from using white flour.
>
> Since I have a flour mill, and want to learn how to do this sort of
> thing, I am most attracted to a borodino style or whole rye bread. I
> understand that the whole rye is difficult...hey, even finding a
> consistent method is difficult! As one poster advised above, I will
> pick a method and experiment. As soon as my starter is ready to go, I
> am off to the races, as it were. I think for the first try I will go
> for an 85% rye/15% WW loaf. Or maybe not I have another week and a
> half to experiment before I have to go back to work.

The important factor with rye baking is that you get enough acidity to
suppress amylase activity sufficiently or the gas holding structure
(pentosans in case of rye) fails and you get a dense "brick" with
great taste.

The more rye you use, the more sour content you will need. The
calculator I mentioned earlier gives you the required starter amounts
(rye content) for several - up to 100 % - rye contents.

You mention WW - whole wheat - that's another factor working against
rise or gas holding ability. The more WW, the less rise.
So - suggest to stay away from WW when going up with rye content
because that adds another factor.
Use standard bread flour and increase rye content. Start with maybe 50
% rye and see how that goes with your starter growing setup and final
dough making.
Change of uncontrolled parameters (temperature, time, water content)
in starter growing is another factor to make once achieved "successes"
non-repeatable.
So - taking notes helps to improve and repeat.
You mention Borodinsky-type bread. That's a more complicated bread
(scalding, adding molasses) than plain wheat/rye or pure rye breads.
Suggest to use simpler type breads to start with and reduce complexities.
And - rye is not difficult to do, just maybe unusual to "regular" breads.

Good luck.
Sam

> You mention Borodinsky-type bread. That's a more complicated bread
> (scalding, adding molasses) than plain wheat/rye or pure rye breads.
> Suggest to use simpler type breads to start with and reduce complexities.
> And - rye is not difficult to do, just maybe unusual to "regular" breads.
>
> Good luck.
> Sam

I'm really glad I found this group.

If I can make a close to 100% rye, and a 100% wheat sourdough, I will
be most happy. I will try rye first, and wheat later. I want to learn
how to nail both of those.

I mention wheat sourdough again as I type with the glow of a couple
slices of 100% Red Fife WW sourdough in my belly

Thanks everyone, I will update you with results in the next couple of
days. My starter lost a bit of vitality after two days in the fridge
while I was at the in-laws.' Another reason not to go to the in-
laws!'

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 10:48:27 -0700, "Samartha Deva"
> wrote:

>On Mon, Dec 29, 2008 at 9:54 AM, Jason > wrote:
>
>>
>> I get a ~100% rye from my local farmers market that is very good. I
>> want to stay away from using white flour.
>>
>> Since I have a flour mill, and want to learn how to do this sort of
>> thing, I am most attracted to a borodino style or whole rye bread. I
>> understand that the whole rye is difficult...hey, even finding a
>> consistent method is difficult! As one poster advised above, I will
>> pick a method and experiment. As soon as my starter is ready to go, I
>> am off to the races, as it were. I think for the first try I will go
>> for an 85% rye/15% WW loaf. Or maybe not I have another week and a
>> half to experiment before I have to go back to work.
>
>The important factor with rye baking is that you get enough acidity to
>suppress amylase activity sufficiently or the gas holding structure
>(pentosans in case of rye) fails and you get a dense "brick" with
>great taste.

I like a 100% rye and made these a month or so ago. Sour, rye flour,
salt, water and a bit - a teaspoon maybe - of vital wheat gluten. Two
very large and heavy loaves.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7609850301120/

> I like a 100% rye and made these a month or so ago. Sour, rye flour,
> salt, water and a bit *- a teaspoon maybe - of vital wheat gluten. Two
> very large and heavy loaves.
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7609850301120/

Wow, those look pretty awesome! I am further encouraged. I think I
will try and follow Feldstein's method initially. Just waiting on my
starter to get going, then I'll fire up the elbowmatic and mill some
more flour.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2008 11:36:42 -0800 (PST), Jason
> wrote:

>> I like a 100% rye and made these a month or so ago. Sour, rye flour,
>> salt, water and a bit *- a teaspoon maybe - of vital wheat gluten. Two
>> very large and heavy loaves.
>>
>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/2564880...7609850301120/
>
>Wow, those look pretty awesome! I am further encouraged. I think I
>will try and follow Feldstein's method initially. Just waiting on my
>starter to get going, then I'll fire up the elbowmatic and mill some
>more flour.


I think you'll have a fine time working with all rye and develop some
interesting breads.

Boron

On 2008-12-29, Samartha Deva > wrote:

>
> The important factor with rye baking is that you get enough acidity to
> suppress amylase activity sufficiently or the gas holding structure
> (pentosans in case of rye) fails and you get a dense "brick" with
> great taste.

That is *one* way to get a dense brick.

I have discovered a second way - by following Samartha Deva's bake
schedule for Pumpernickel.

The taste was great but the crust was rock-hard. It defeated the
bread-knife, but my (Alsatian) dog thought it was the best food that she
had ever tasted.

Felix Karpfen

--
Felix Karpfen
Public Key 72FDF9DF (DH/DSA)

OK, I made my first brick yesterday. It wasn't all that bad. It tastes
good anyway!

The main issue was that it was soggy in the center. The other issue
was that it did not rise very much. I tried to follow Feldstein's
method...I imagine that one would have to have a very active starter
and a very good rise to get 2-3x volume increase upon 5-8 hours of
proofing.

I will try round 2 tomorrow or the next day and advise further.

Thanks everyone!