Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?

Ian

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

"QT" > wrote in message m...
> The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?

Only sissies add bakers' yeast.

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

I see lots of recipes that call for a 'souring' of the first flour and
water mix for 'flavor', then you add commercial yeast for the rise.

There is a pro baker on this group and he confirmed that the bakeries
commonly use a small percent of commercial yeast in their product
because it controls rise times better or makes them a bit faster no
matter what 'mood' the sourdough critters are in that day.

I have tried both ways in the past and still make a 'hybrid' loaf with a
small amount of commercial yeast added now and then. Well, my 'market'
or family ask for it now and then. I find my hybrid loaf is very close
to what the grocery stores sell for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

QT wrote:
> The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?
>
> Ian

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:11:01 -0500, QT
> wrote:

>The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
>general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
>at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
>little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
>sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?
>
>Ian

Hi Ian,

It is possible to produce wonderful breads either way...

I became intrigued by the challenges of the old (that is no
commercial yeast) methods years ago, and have gone in that
direction since.

But, it's not a religious matter, so I would suggest that
you just experiment to see which method provides you better
bread, and more fun.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
> [ ... ]
> I find my hybrid loaf is very close to what the grocery stores sell
> for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.

What is the mileage for that hybrid?

Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .

--
Dicky

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> ... it's not a religious matter, so I would suggest that
> you just experiment to see which method provides you better
> bread, and more fun.

Oh, Kenneth, you are so indiscriminative! What do you tell kids about
pot? Well, anyway, it probably won't hurt them. Neither will bakers' yeast
in sourdough, actually. For the most fun, bake some of the leafy stuff
into the sourdough loaves.

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
>> [ ... ]
>> I find my hybrid loaf is very close to what the grocery stores sell
>> for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.
>
> What is the mileage for that hybrid?

Not as long a life as your 'billowy' loaf. My 'market' likes a variety
of breads, not the same old thing every day...

>
> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .
>

Your link don't work Dicky....

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Mike Romain wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .
>>
>
> Your link don't work Dicky....

Works just fine. I can right-click (even though I'm left-handed) and
call up a drop-down menu that says "find message by ID" as an option
with choices. I picked the news server I read from.

If your news reader doesn't have that capability, then do a message id
search he
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search

B/

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> Dick Adams wrote:
>>> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read
>>> .
>>>
>>
>> Your link don't work Dicky....
>
> Works just fine. I can right-click (even though I'm left-handed) and
> call up a drop-down menu that says "find message by ID" as an option
> with choices. I picked the news server I read from.
>
> If your news reader doesn't have that capability, then do a message id
> search he
> http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
>
> B/

Thanks, I use Thunderbird and it doesn't recognize that as legit, it
only says it wants to report it as an email scam on the right click.

If folks online can't use universal codes that most 'legit' newsreaders
can use, well I would have to be 'really' interested in reading it to go
chasing all over the WWW for it. I'm not....

I 'know' for sure my hybrid loaf is a winner so I make it now and then.

Mike

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Mike Romain wrote:
> Brian Mailman wrote:
>> Mike Romain wrote:
>>> Dick Adams wrote:
>>>> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>
>>> Your link don't work Dicky....
>>
>> Works just fine. I can right-click (even though I'm left-handed) and
>> call up a drop-down menu that says "find message by ID" as an option
>> with choices. I picked the news server I read from.
>>
>> If your news reader doesn't have that capability, then do a message id
>> search he
>> http://groups.google.com/advanced_search

> Thanks, I use Thunderbird and it doesn't recognize that as legit, it
> only says it wants to report it as an email scam on the right click.

Weird, because I use Seamonkey which should have the same innards.
Maybe it's a Mnenhy function. Anway, as I said, and you snipped out,
you can do a message id search on google quite easily enough.

B/

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Mar 31, 11:11*pm, QT > wrote:
> The subject line says it all. *As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. *From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. *What's the scoop?
>
> Ian

Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
a good result without throwing out my starter.

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

briarpatch wrote:
> Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
> bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
> quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
> pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
> a good result without throwing out my starter.
>
Yes - but you did not get the benefits of sourdough fermentation.

You may get taste elements - remaining fermentation products from your
non-performing starter, and the rise from baker's yeast.

Similar to "taste enhancing" products sold to allow short and
money-efficient bread productions, something like that:

http://www.uldo.de/cgi-bin/produkte/...& JOB=ARTIKEL

Sterilized dough souring product based on natural sourdough with
concentrated sourdough-specific acids etc....

And that's what this whole thread is all about.

Not being able to manage and create a well performing starter and using
bakers yeast to get a taste enhanced yeast driven bread, cake bun - or
whatever.

Sure it works - somewhat - although not the "real" thing done with full
sourdough fermentation and inherent shortcomings.

Sam

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:10:08 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>
>> Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
>> bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
>> quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
>> pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
>> a good result without throwing out my starter.
>>
>Yes - but you did not get the benefits of sourdough fermentation.
>
>You may get taste elements - remaining fermentation products from your
>non-performing starter, and the rise from baker's yeast.

Hi Sam,

(I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
bread, but...)

In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
not be available from the finished loaf?

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Sam,
>
> (I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
> bread, but...)
>
> In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
> not be available from the finished loaf?
>
Rising a loaf requires energy to overcome gravity and internal dough
cohesion, amongst other obstacles.
Baker's yeast fermentation differs from sourdough fermentation in
several ways, one aspect is that it uses selected yeast strains
optimized to create gas for rising.

Sourdough fermentation uses "wild" yeast strains and lactic acid
bacteria not optimized for gas production.

To create somewhat similar rising power as baker's yeast with sourdough,
more fermentation is required.

If sourdough fermentation is considered beneficial and baker's yeast is
used in addition, not so much sourdough fermentation is required to rise
a loaf and the beneficial component is reduced.

In the extreme example with the link I posted - a sterile "sourdough"
additive - no sourdough fermentation at all is going on with the dough,
just what's in the additive creates the impression of a sourdough. Using
an overripe, non-performing starter and yeast to make up for the rising
deficiency is somewhat similar.

Sam

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:50:51 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> (I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
>> bread, but...)
>>
>> In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
>> not be available from the finished loaf?
>>
>Rising a loaf requires energy to overcome gravity and internal dough
>cohesion, amongst other obstacles.
>Baker's yeast fermentation differs from sourdough fermentation in
>several ways, one aspect is that it uses selected yeast strains
>optimized to create gas for rising.
>
>Sourdough fermentation uses "wild" yeast strains and lactic acid
>bacteria not optimized for gas production.
>
>To create somewhat similar rising power as baker's yeast with sourdough,
>more fermentation is required.
>
>If sourdough fermentation is considered beneficial and baker's yeast is
>used in addition, not so much sourdough fermentation is required to rise
>a loaf and the beneficial component is reduced.
>
>In the extreme example with the link I posted - a sterile "sourdough"
>additive - no sourdough fermentation at all is going on with the dough,
>just what's in the additive creates the impression of a sourdough. Using
>an overripe, non-performing starter and yeast to make up for the rising
>deficiency is somewhat similar.
>
>Sam
>
>
Hi again Sam,

I thank you for your interesting comments, but see that my
question was not clear.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking about:

Wouldn't it be possible to ferment a dough with SD, and then
add some commercial yeast near the end of the process?

That might provide a loaf with the taste (and other
benefits) of the natural leavening, but could also have the
benefits of the extra oomph provided by the commercial
stuff, no?

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Apr 6, 8:30 am, Kenneth > wrote:

> Wouldn't it be possible to ferment a dough with SD, and then
> add some commercial yeast near the end of the process?
>
> That might provide a loaf with the taste (and other
> benefits) of the natural leavening, but could also have the
> benefits of the extra oomph provided by the commercial
> stuff, no?

I guess the question is WHY would you do this... if you have a ripe
dough and if you have developed it correctly so the gluten is well
laminated... your final proof is assured.

It seems to me that it would be difficult to disperse yeast in an
aged, glutenous, dough. but I think I will try it. I'll brush a yeast
slurry on dough rectangle during stretch and folds. See what happens.
By S&F time, my dough is usually 12 to 16 hours old. I typically do 4
to 5 S&F's so there will be a lot of layers for the yeast
gas.

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Kenneth wrote:
>
> Hi again Sam,
>
> I thank you for your interesting comments, but see that my
> question was not clear.
>
> This is the sort of thing I was thinking about:
>
> Wouldn't it be possible to ferment a dough with SD, and then
> add some commercial yeast near the end of the process?
>
Sure - you could do that.
Mix/knead, bulk-rise the dough, punch it down, rise it again and then
rip the sourdough fermented dough structure apart and sprinkle some
yeast in there and rise it again - or what? That would be "near the end
of the process".

Or - mix the dough - sourdough, flour, water + whatever + yeast to get
it to rise properly then ferment, bulk-rise, punch down, rise again.

Or - uups - starter is kind of lazy - let's add some yeast to get
something out of it.

All works.
> That might provide a loaf with the taste (and other
> benefits) of the natural leavening, but could also have the
> benefits of the extra oomph provided by the commercial
> stuff, no?
>
>
Sure you could do that. My point, that by adding yeast to get the same
rise as with natural sourdough, sourdough fermentation and -effect is
reduced, stands.

Sam

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 08:23:00 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>>
>> Hi again Sam,
>>
>> I thank you for your interesting comments, but see that my
>> question was not clear.
>>
>> This is the sort of thing I was thinking about:
>>
>> Wouldn't it be possible to ferment a dough with SD, and then
>> add some commercial yeast near the end of the process?
>>
>Sure - you could do that.
>Mix/knead, bulk-rise the dough, punch it down, rise it again and then
>rip the sourdough fermented dough structure apart and sprinkle some
>yeast in there and rise it again - or what? That would be "near the end
>of the process".
>
>Or - mix the dough - sourdough, flour, water + whatever + yeast to get
>it to rise properly then ferment, bulk-rise, punch down, rise again.
>
>Or - uups - starter is kind of lazy - let's add some yeast to get
>something out of it.
>
>All works.
>> That might provide a loaf with the taste (and other
>> benefits) of the natural leavening, but could also have the
>> benefits of the extra oomph provided by the commercial
>> stuff, no?
>>
>>
>Sure you could do that. My point, that by adding yeast to get the same
>rise as with natural sourdough, sourdough fermentation and -effect is
>reduced, stands.
>
>Sam

Hi Sam,

Perhaps I am misreading your tone and if so, I apologize...

You seem to be responding to my question as if I had
advocated using both SD, and commercial yeast.

I am not advocating that, or anything else.

I don't even have any particular interest in trying this
"mixed leavening thing." (Though, by the way, it is widely
used in France.)

Sometimes questions are just that... questions.

I was simply wanted to understand more about why, in your
view, the benefits of SD would somehow be negated by the
addition of commercial yeast, and so, I asked.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Kenneth wrote:
> I don't even have any particular interest in trying this
> "mixed leavening thing." (Though, by the way, it is widely
> used in France.)
>

I have read other places and heard 'and' it has been posted here in this
newsgroup by a French Baker that they (commercial bakers) use a small
percent of bakers yeast in their sourdough.

I was under the understanding it was used to help control the rise
timing so they can actually have their bread ready for the morning or
afternoon rush every time.

I use it now and then for exactly that with good results. The folks
that eat my bread (my 'market') like this type of 'hybrid' loaf now and
then.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:49:38 -0500, QT
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
><snipped>
>
>
>> You seem to be responding to my question as if I had
>> advocated using both SD, and commercial yeast.
>> I am not advocating that, or anything else.
>>
>> I don't even have any particular interest in trying this
>> "mixed leavening thing." (Though, by the way, it is widely
>> used in France.)
>
>I have done some Googling and can not not seem to find anything to
>confirm this "widely used in France" statement. Please elaborate.
>
>Just for the record, I am not advocating one approach or the other. I
>am way too inexperienced to make any comments. So far, though, judging
>by the web pages I get from Googling and answers I get from this news
>group, the consensus seems to be one or the other, but not both.
>
>Ian

Hi Ian,

It may have been one of those pesky hallucinations...

I checked (what I thought to be) my source, and can't find
the material on the topic.

If I get more information, I'll post it, but for now, we
will have to chalk it up to a bout of (seemingly ever more
frequent) temporary insanity.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

Kenneth wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:49:38 -0500, QT
> > wrote:
>
>> Kenneth wrote:
>> <snipped>
>>
>>
>>> You seem to be responding to my question as if I had
>>> advocated using both SD, and commercial yeast.
>>> I am not advocating that, or anything else.
>>>
>>> I don't even have any particular interest in trying this
>>> "mixed leavening thing." (Though, by the way, it is widely
>>> used in France.)
>> I have done some Googling and can not not seem to find anything to
>> confirm this "widely used in France" statement. Please elaborate.
>>
>> Just for the record, I am not advocating one approach or the other. I
>> am way too inexperienced to make any comments. So far, though, judging
>> by the web pages I get from Googling and answers I get from this news
>> group, the consensus seems to be one or the other, but not both.
>>
>> Ian
>
> Hi Ian,
>
> It may have been one of those pesky hallucinations...
>
> I checked (what I thought to be) my source, and can't find
> the material on the topic.
>
> If I get more information, I'll post it, but for now, we
> will have to chalk it up to a bout of (seemingly ever more
> frequent) temporary insanity.
>
> All the best,

Here check out this link where the European commercial bakers are saying
they use 0.5% commercial yeast in their SD.

http://groups.google.ca/group/rec.fo...b5003c0254fbda

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Sourdough recipes that call for both starter and yeast.
 

On Tue, 07 Apr 2009 08:21:26 -0400, Kenneth
> wrote:

>On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 21:49:38 -0500, QT
> wrote:
>
>>Kenneth wrote:
>><snipped>
>>
>>
>>> You seem to be responding to my question as if I had
>>> advocated using both SD, and commercial yeast.
>>> I am not advocating that, or anything else.
>>>
>>> I don't even have any particular interest in trying this
>>> "mixed leavening thing." (Though, by the way, it is widely
>>> used in France.)
>>
>>I have done some Googling and can not not seem to find anything to
>>confirm this "widely used in France" statement. Please elaborate.
>>
>>Just for the record, I am not advocating one approach or the other. I
>>am way too inexperienced to make any comments. So far, though, judging
>>by the web pages I get from Googling and answers I get from this news
>>group, the consensus seems to be one or the other, but not both.
>>
>>Ian
>
>Hi Ian,
>
>It may have been one of those pesky hallucinations...
>
>I checked (what I thought to be) my source, and can't find
>the material on the topic.
>
>If I get more information, I'll post it, but for now, we
>will have to chalk it up to a bout of (seemingly ever more
>frequent) temporary insanity.
>
>All the best,

Hi again,

Perhaps I was not hallucinating after all...

I was just looking at the Calvel book "The Taste of Bread"
and found on pages 92-93 a detailed discussion of baking
with both a levain (sourdough culture) and commercial yeast.

Calvel says:

"Another subject that should be discussed is the addition of
bakers' yeast while breadmaking with a levain. This is done
quite often, but when the baker is baking and selling bread
that is supposed to be from a natural levain, the addition
of yeast is contrary to custom."

He then goes on the provide recipes and techniques for such
loaves.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."