The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?

Ian

"QT" > wrote in message m...
> The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?

Only sissies add bakers' yeast.

I see lots of recipes that call for a 'souring' of the first flour and
water mix for 'flavor', then you add commercial yeast for the rise.

There is a pro baker on this group and he confirmed that the bakeries
commonly use a small percent of commercial yeast in their product
because it controls rise times better or makes them a bit faster no
matter what 'mood' the sourdough critters are in that day.

I have tried both ways in the past and still make a 'hybrid' loaf with a
small amount of commercial yeast added now and then. Well, my 'market'
or family ask for it now and then. I find my hybrid loaf is very close
to what the grocery stores sell for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

QT wrote:
> The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?
>
> Ian

"Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
> [ ... ]
> I find my hybrid loaf is very close to what the grocery stores sell
> for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.

What is the mileage for that hybrid?

Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .

--
Dicky

Dick Adams wrote:
> "Mike Romain" > wrote in message g.com...
>> [ ... ]
>> I find my hybrid loaf is very close to what the grocery stores sell
>> for 'sourdough' in taste and texture.
>
> What is the mileage for that hybrid?

Not as long a life as your 'billowy' loaf. My 'market' likes a variety
of breads, not the same old thing every day...

>
> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .
>

Your link don't work Dicky....

Mike
Some bread photos: http://www.mikeromain.shutterfly.com

Mike Romain wrote:
> Dick Adams wrote:
>> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read .
>>
>
> Your link don't work Dicky....

Works just fine. I can right-click (even though I'm left-handed) and
call up a drop-down menu that says "find message by ID" as an option
with choices. I picked the news server I read from.

If your news reader doesn't have that capability, then do a message id
search he
http://groups.google.com/advanced_search

B/

Brian Mailman wrote:
> Mike Romain wrote:
>> Dick Adams wrote:
>>> Wise up, Mike Romain! Please read
>>> .
>>>
>>
>> Your link don't work Dicky....
>
> Works just fine. I can right-click (even though I'm left-handed) and
> call up a drop-down menu that says "find message by ID" as an option
> with choices. I picked the news server I read from.
>
> If your news reader doesn't have that capability, then do a message id
> search he
> http://groups.google.com/advanced_search
>
> B/

Thanks, I use Thunderbird and it doesn't recognize that as legit, it
only says it wants to report it as an email scam on the right click.

If folks online can't use universal codes that most 'legit' newsreaders
can use, well I would have to be 'really' interested in reading it to go
chasing all over the WWW for it. I'm not....

I 'know' for sure my hybrid loaf is a winner so I make it now and then.

Mike

On Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:11:01 -0500, QT
> wrote:

>The subject line says it all. As I am new to sourdough (baking in
>general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
>at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. From what (very
>little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
>sourdough starter, but not both. What's the scoop?
>
>Ian

Hi Ian,

It is possible to produce wonderful breads either way...

I became intrigued by the challenges of the old (that is no
commercial yeast) methods years ago, and have gone in that
direction since.

But, it's not a religious matter, so I would suggest that
you just experiment to see which method provides you better
bread, and more fun.

All the best,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

"Kenneth" > wrote in message ...
> ... it's not a religious matter, so I would suggest that
> you just experiment to see which method provides you better
> bread, and more fun.

Oh, Kenneth, you are so indiscriminative! What do you tell kids about
pot? Well, anyway, it probably won't hurt them. Neither will bakers' yeast
in sourdough, actually. For the most fun, bake some of the leafy stuff
into the sourdough loaves.

On Mar 31, 11:11*pm, QT > wrote:
> The subject line says it all. *As I am new to sourdough (baking in
> general, really) I am not sure why this particular recipe I am looking
> at calls for both sourdough and a package of yeast. *From what (very
> little) I know, I thought you used one or the other - packaged yeast or
> sourdough starter, but not both. *What's the scoop?
>
> Ian

Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
a good result without throwing out my starter.

briarpatch wrote:
> Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
> bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
> quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
> pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
> a good result without throwing out my starter.
>
Yes - but you did not get the benefits of sourdough fermentation.

You may get taste elements - remaining fermentation products from your
non-performing starter, and the rise from baker's yeast.

Similar to "taste enhancing" products sold to allow short and
money-efficient bread productions, something like that:

http://www.uldo.de/cgi-bin/produkte/...& JOB=ARTIKEL

Sterilized dough souring product based on natural sourdough with
concentrated sourdough-specific acids etc....

And that's what this whole thread is all about.

Not being able to manage and create a well performing starter and using
bakers yeast to get a taste enhanced yeast driven bread, cake bun - or
whatever.

Sure it works - somewhat - although not the "real" thing done with full
sourdough fermentation and inherent shortcomings.

Sam

On Sun, 05 Apr 2009 18:10:08 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>
>> Yesterday, I put out some starter a little too late and it wasn't
>> bubbling and rising. So, when I added it to my dough, I dumped in a
>> quarter teaspoon of commercial yeast. I have to say the results were
>> pretty good. The sourdough starter still dominated the taste and I got
>> a good result without throwing out my starter.
>>
>Yes - but you did not get the benefits of sourdough fermentation.
>
>You may get taste elements - remaining fermentation products from your
>non-performing starter, and the rise from baker's yeast.

Hi Sam,

(I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
bread, but...)

In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
not be available from the finished loaf?

Thanks for your thoughts,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Kenneth wrote:
> Hi Sam,
>
> (I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
> bread, but...)
>
> In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
> not be available from the finished loaf?
>
Rising a loaf requires energy to overcome gravity and internal dough
cohesion, amongst other obstacles.
Baker's yeast fermentation differs from sourdough fermentation in
several ways, one aspect is that it uses selected yeast strains
optimized to create gas for rising.

Sourdough fermentation uses "wild" yeast strains and lactic acid
bacteria not optimized for gas production.

To create somewhat similar rising power as baker's yeast with sourdough,
more fermentation is required.

If sourdough fermentation is considered beneficial and baker's yeast is
used in addition, not so much sourdough fermentation is required to rise
a loaf and the beneficial component is reduced.

In the extreme example with the link I posted - a sterile "sourdough"
additive - no sourdough fermentation at all is going on with the dough,
just what's in the additive creates the impression of a sourdough. Using
an overripe, non-performing starter and yeast to make up for the rising
deficiency is somewhat similar.

Sam

On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 06:50:51 -0600, Sam
> wrote:

>Kenneth wrote:
>> Hi Sam,
>>
>> (I don't know that I have ever made such a "mixed leavening"
>> bread, but...)
>>
>> In the situation above, why would those sourdough benefits
>> not be available from the finished loaf?
>>
>Rising a loaf requires energy to overcome gravity and internal dough
>cohesion, amongst other obstacles.
>Baker's yeast fermentation differs from sourdough fermentation in
>several ways, one aspect is that it uses selected yeast strains
>optimized to create gas for rising.
>
>Sourdough fermentation uses "wild" yeast strains and lactic acid
>bacteria not optimized for gas production.
>
>To create somewhat similar rising power as baker's yeast with sourdough,
>more fermentation is required.
>
>If sourdough fermentation is considered beneficial and baker's yeast is
>used in addition, not so much sourdough fermentation is required to rise
>a loaf and the beneficial component is reduced.
>
>In the extreme example with the link I posted - a sterile "sourdough"
>additive - no sourdough fermentation at all is going on with the dough,
>just what's in the additive creates the impression of a sourdough. Using
>an overripe, non-performing starter and yeast to make up for the rising
>deficiency is somewhat similar.
>
>Sam
>
>
Hi again Sam,

I thank you for your interesting comments, but see that my
question was not clear.

This is the sort of thing I was thinking about:

Wouldn't it be possible to ferment a dough with SD, and then
add some commercial yeast near the end of the process?

That might provide a loaf with the taste (and other
benefits) of the natural leavening, but could also have the
benefits of the extra oomph provided by the commercial
stuff, no?

Thanks again,
--
Kenneth

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."